PC1 Latest Build testing.

[Andy_J]

As you all know, Ian gave me a free pass to test the latest builds and that's what I have been doing for the last week. I will report here as and when I see fit to tell all about my findings.

But I will say that the latest build (296) is quite good. Now lets make some sense of my statement. I used a Lotus 98T in helmet cam using my antique MOMO red wheel and I can honestly report it is coming along much better than I anticipated. The actual feel and immersion is damn fine at this point. The handling is strange at first compared to say...RF2 and FVA, but it grows on you within minutes. At this point in time, this actual car feels good. I like it and I love the Milan circuit. The damage model has come on leaps and bounds.

I am doing some more testing all of next week using a G27 and I will also test some of the other cars that don't interest me as much (I am a F1 nut) and see how the feel in comparison to Shift 2, because that is what I was initially comparing PCars to.

I would like the replay function to have a directors mode though. Something that jumps from action to action and from car to car.

Aside from that, the replay's do crash my PC quite often but I understand that is being looked at.

Watch this space.

 

[Chronus]

So I think AC is better in physics and R3E is too easy to drive.

Years ago, Ian Bell said that people confused "hard to drive" with realism. Some of us (modders, developers, simracers) have been trying to show people that realism has nothing to do with how hard or easy a sim car is to drive.

So, here we are again, someone making a distinction between a sim which is "better in physics" and another sim which is at the opposite side and is "too easy to drive".

Years later, same myth, different wording.

FYI, GTR2 is still highly regarded for being a true sim - certainly not perfect, but aiming at a realistic vehicle simulation. From GTR2 to Race07, SIMBIN effected positive changes to the physics modelling (as per Mark Reynold's explanations years ago at NoGrip), and those changes included improvements to the tire model (which, is even better than GSC's).

From Race07 to RRRE, SIMBIN has been slowly applying intelligent, surgical changes to the tire model (and other parts of the physics engine as well). AC and others being "better" than it? Hype as usual.

Personally I take most anything David say with a grain of salt.

Did you take the justification of why David is wrong (the glorious "center point physics is an illusion caused by a mix of POV and FOV"), with a grain of salt?

 

[Sele1981]

Years ago, Ian Bell said that people confused "hard to drive" with realism. Some of us (modders, developers, simracers) have been trying to show people that realism has nothing to do with how hard or easy a sim car is to drive.

So, here we are again, someone making a distinction between a sim which is "better in physics" and another sim which is at the opposite side and is "too easy to drive".

Years later, same myth, different wording.

FYI, GTR2 is still highly regarded for being a true sim - certainly not perfect, but aiming at a realistic vehicle simulation. From GTR2 to Race07, SIMBIN effected positive changes to the physics modelling (as per Mark Reynold's explanations years ago at NoGrip), and those changes included improvements to the tire model (which, is even better than GSC's).

From Race07 to RRRE, SIMBIN has been slowly applying intelligent, surgical changes to the tire model (and other parts of the physics engine as well). AC and others being "better" than it? Hype as usual.



Did you take the justification of why David is wrong (the glorious "center point physics is an illusion caused by a mix of POV and FOV"), with a grain of salt?

Well I see I have to choose my words carefully

I am on my smartphone so I can not write a lot. What I was meaning with easy to drive was that it feels very different from what I played in my sim racing career.

With the BMW WTCC car for example I have no understeer, no spins, no fights to keep the car on the track. It drives like on rails to me. You can go like crazy through corners what remembers me to some arcade games.

I use the 'get real' mode.

I also don't feel when I brake. A friend visited me yesterday and he was also asking if my brakes are broken. I have the fanatec clubsport pedals, so not the worst.

Raceroom in general feels 'spongy' (or whatever it is called in english) where AC is absolutely direct steering. R3E physics feel not alife. As you said, it feels more like last gen, gtr2 etc.

So thats my opinion about r3e and I respect other people's opinions who say that ac is arcade or whatever.

 

[Chronus]

Well I see I have to choose my words carefully

Not at all. You've written what you think, easy to understand that.

Unfortunately, it's something that's been ingrained into the simracing community for far too long (the "hard is realistic" mantra). To the point that, if pCARS/RRRE sport proper vehicle and tire behaviour it still will be seen as "arcade-ish" because they're "too easy".

I also don't feel when I brake. A friend visited me yesterday and he was also asking if my brakes are broken. I have the fanatec clubsport pedals, so not the worst.

Why do you think it's about hardware? It's not.

And it's not about physics either. It's about "feel". And your expectations about that "feel" (like so many) are at the root of these issues.

In regards to RRRE and "feel", perhaps a cautionary note to recall that SIMBIN are working on the FFB, which they admitted required some work still. So, the physics may be terrific, but for those linking it (wrongly) to what they think they're supposed to "feel" via FFB, inevitably they see problems with the physics engine when there're none.

R3E physics feel not alife. As you said, it feels more like last gen, gtr2 etc.

Well, I never said that RRRE "feels more like last gen, gtr2 etc".

Re-formulating that thought: GTR2 (by Blimey/SIMBIN) is still considered one of the best in terms of car behaviour. Race07 came out with improvements to the tire model. RRRE, as far as I know, has had improvements to the physics engine, including THAT tire model.

Whatever a lot of people "think" about next-gen this or that, it's basically the by-product of marketing (cough** hype **cough).

I respect other people's opinions who say that ac is arcade or whatever.

Good to see. I don't see many RRRE/rF/GSC/CARS fans roaming the AC forums and hinting at it being arcadey, it would be great if AC fans had that respect you show...

 

[Lawndart]

The argument about hard to drive must be more realistic is a good one that needs more follow up. It's very true and likely the least understood by gamers. I think gamers are conditioned by games ramping in difficulty and assume that it should be more challenging. The real challenge in a racing game is being precise and consistent as speeds increase. It's not just driving a car at the edge of control.

In the real world, making a Miata go fast is a lot more work than a GT3 car, a momentum car is very punishing if you make a single mistake, a car with more power affords you a couple in racing conditions (not hot lapping). Higher end race cars are much easier to drive, they are very precision built machines designed to give an advantage in their relm. These days top racers are all quite similare and good, but it's the car that really makes the difference and ease of driving is much more applicable than a wee bit more performance. Is this where the collision of physics vs. feel happens? Physics being complex must mean it should be harder to play/drive? Is there a reason I can run my real cars faster than in a game if I drive them the same way?

Personally I belive the largest focus on the feel of a racing car in a game is in some more intuitive ability to help the player "feel" a cars slip angle. Many refer to tire models but it's one of, if not the key thing you feel in a real race car (and motorcycle) that games don't do a good job of and require trial and error to figure out. It's what the Aliens know that makes them aliens perhaps?

Raceroom was an interesting experience for me, at first I liked it, then the faster I got the less life the cars seemed to have, like they had tons of aero or hooked to a rail at speed, the disparity in slow and fast physics of games might be very misleading and why people have such a contrast in opinions. In the end, it was just not for me :/ or I need to give it more time?

 

[Sele1981]

Not at all. You've written what you think, easy to understand that.

Unfortunately, it's something that's been ingrained into the simracing community for far too long (the "hard is realistic" mantra). To the point that, if pCARS/RRRE sport proper vehicle and tire behaviour it still will be seen as "arcade-ish" because they're "too easy".



Why do you think it's about hardware? It's not.

And it's not about physics either. It's about "feel". And your expectations about that "feel" (like so many) are at the root of these issues.

In regards to RRRE and "feel", perhaps a cautionary note to recall that SIMBIN are working on the FFB, which they admitted required some work still. So, the physics may be terrific, but for those linking it (wrongly) to what they think they're supposed to "feel" via FFB, inevitably they see problems with the physics engine when there're none.



Well, I never said that RRRE "feels more like last gen, gtr2 etc".

Re-formulating that thought: GTR2 (by Blimey/SIMBIN) is still considered one of the best in terms of car behaviour. Race07 came out with improvements to the tire model. RRRE, as far as I know, has had improvements to the physics engine, including THAT tire model.

Whatever a lot of people "think" about next-gen this or that, it's basically the by-product of marketing (cough** hype **cough).



Good to see. I don't see many RRRE/rF/GSC/CARS fans roaming the AC forums and hinting at it being arcadey, it would be great if AC fans had that respect you show...

Well, because of english is not my main language, it is hard to describe what I mean. I agree with you and on other forums I also wrote this myself that a sim/car must not be undriveable hard to count as a sim.

I dont feel connected with R3E like I feel in AC. Landwart described it pretty good here.

Raceroom was an interesting experience for me, at first I liked it, then the faster I got the less life the cars seemed to have, like they had tons of aero or hooked to a rail at speed, the disparity in slow and fast physics of games might be very misleading and why people have such a contrast in opinions. In the end, it was just not for me :/ or I need to give it more time?

What I have to mention, I have the FFB bug since the newest patch. That means that sometimes I have the new FFB and sometimes the old FFB or almost no FFB. Before the patch, the FFB effects were the best I experienced so far. I have an Fanatec GT2 (but I hope an Base V2 soon).

 

[traind]

A few thoughts:

LawnDart: I agree a momentum car punishes mistakes but a car like the Miata is also easier to drive in many ways because things are happening much slower. High end race cars are set up to go fast but the edge can still be very tricky. One reason for that is the speed with which things are happening. Braking power is greater & speeds are also much greater-- creating the need for great precision and boldness in the braking zones.

Chronus: It sounds like you are a Simbin fan. I have spent quite a bit of time with all their older titles, less with RRRE. They have a lot to offer still. But just because Simbin are taking a product and building off it does not always make it 1) improved or 2) better than newer competition. Sometimes being tied to an established product can actually hold you back from innovating and matching/ beating the competition.

I wish Simbin the best but have not personally been too impressed with their newer stuff. Good, not great. Everyone has different needs and preferences so if someone thinks RRRE is the best for them I certainly won't argue.

 

[TherealWalkman]

Had a test with PCARS last week. 5 people (4 who never ever played a simulation but drive on trackdays) participated. All in all I can say that physics- and FFB wise barely anything changed. The rest of the guys weren´t impressed either. Then decided to buy Assetto Corsa and man what a difference. Most of us said that in comparison to PCARS you can actually feel what the tyres are doing and you really feel involved. That means you really are emotionally attached to whats happening when you are fast driving and you want to go just another round the course to try taking that one corner even faster than before. That happens because you always know what happened when it went wrong. The sound sound of wind, tyres and the carcass really represent whats happening on the screen. ALL THE TIME. With PCARS its like an audio tape with random sounds would roll in the background. Driving with all cars feels spongy and you driving is based on the knowledge of what not to do but not on the knowledge that the FFB and sound transport. Its like steering a mousecursor with a PS4 pad instead of a real mouse. All in all we all where really surprised that evening because we actually decided to drive PCARS only this evening. We became bored really fast. The decision to go to steam and buy AC was ad hoc. I didn´t know it was that good because I only knew the demo from some months ago. I didn´t expect it to be such a stunner. And again it seems that we have a decade where I wish to have the graphics and tracks of game A and the physics and FFB of game B. Anyway that doesn´t mean that AC´s graphics suck, they are actually pretty great. I only miss the Nordschleife

 

[SteinA]

Just out of curiosity; how did you get to test pCars? If I don't remember wrong you stated about a year ago you were banned

 

[ONT]

Had a test with PCARS last week. 5 people (4 who never ever played a simulation but drive on trackdays) participated. All in all I can say that physics- and FFB wise barely anything changed. The rest of the guys weren´t impressed either. Then decided to buy Assetto Corsa and man what a difference. Most of us said that in comparison to PCARS you can actually feel what the tyres are doing and you really feel involved. That means you really are emotionally attached to whats happening when you are fast driving and you want to go just another round the course to try taking that one corner even faster than before. That happens because you always know what happened when it went wrong. The sound sound of wind, tyres and the carcass really represent whats happening on the screen. ALL THE TIME. With PCARS its like an audio tape with random sounds would roll in the background. Driving with all cars feels spongy and you driving is based on the knowledge of what not to do but not on the knowledge that the FFB and sound transport. Its like steering a mousecursor with a PS4 pad instead of a real mouse. All in all we all where really surprised that evening because we actually decided to drive PCARS only this evening. We became bored really fast. The decision to go to steam and buy AC was ad hoc. I didn´t know it was that good because I only knew the demo from some months ago. I didn´t expect it to be such a stunner. And again it seems that we have a decade where I wish to have the graphics and tracks of game A and the physics and FFB of game B. Anyway that doesn´t mean that AC´s graphics suck, they are actually pretty great. I only miss the Nordschleife

Cool story bro.

 

[Connor Caple]

Personally I belive the largest focus on the feel of a racing car in a game is in some more intuitive ability to help the player "feel" a cars slip angle. Many refer to tire models but it's one of, if not the key thing you feel in a real race car (and motorcycle) that games don't do a good job of and require trial and error to figure out. It's what the Aliens know that makes them aliens perhaps?

The nearest thing I've come across that helps simulate the feeling you have in a real car, visually, is the games that have a 'racing line' that changes colour to show how much grip you have left (in theory). I'm perfectly capable of learning a track without it, like we do in Race 07, but some kind of grip indicator is needed for people who have raced actual cars because the 'Sims' just don't cut it without that.

People who race purely visually in sims think having that kind of aid is 'cheating' somehow, but in reality race-sims are lacking a vital feedback tool which is present in actual race cars. I struggle in so-called 'Sims' because I can rarely feel what the car is doing, The FFB can take hours to tune it in to add all the fake feelings it provides in an attempt to counter that lack of 'feel', but that's the only way I can drive them.

Every Sim which is not providing that g-force/grip information is actually an arcade game, whether the advocates of said game like it or not. The best racing simulators in the world cost many thousands of pounds and have hydraulic systems to throw you around in the car to try to replace some of those gravitational forces.

Difficulty levels are an arcade thing - real racers drive cars that stay planted and give you advance warning before they 'let go' in a corner...

 

[Mark Quigley]

I agree and disagree with you Connor.
I think a solution to the g-force/grip information problem would be for hardware and software manufacturers to communicate more. I do not think this problem lies with software alone and yes, we do not all have the money for motion sims.
The chair with plates for arse cheeks and lumbar for example, not my cup of tea but I appreciate it for the gap it is trying to bridge.

 

[Lawndart]

The nearest thing I've come across that helps simulate the feeling you have in a real car, visually, is the games that have a 'racing line' that changes colour to show how much grip you have left (in theory). I'm perfectly capable of learning a track without it, like we do in Race 07, but some kind of grip indicator is needed for people who have raced actual cars because the 'Sims' just don't cut it without that.

People who race purely visually in sims think having that kind of aid is 'cheating' somehow, but in reality race-sims are lacking a vital feedback tool which is present in actual race cars. I struggle in so-called 'Sims' because I can rarely feel what the car is doing, The FFB can take hours to tune it in to add all the fake feelings it provides in an attempt to counter that lack of 'feel', but that's the only way I can drive them.

Every Sim which is not providing that g-force/grip information is actually an arcade game, whether the advocates of said game like it or not. The best racing simulators in the world cost many thousands of pounds and have hydraulic systems to throw you around in the car to try to replace some of those gravitational forces.

Difficulty levels are an arcade thing - real racers drive cars that stay planted and give you advance warning before they 'let go' in a corner...

I agree with mark for the most part, but gamers assumption of what "grip" is vs what we real drivers know it to be is intact what some sim folks think is more "sim-Cade" there is a sensation in the "slip angle" or edge of grip that feels floaty and drift like and the wheel lightens. This is why you see drivers "seesaw" the wheel. When you are tracking out the wheel tightens as mechanical grip returns. Codemasters F1 2011 did a fine job of this but I think we confuse it for aero grip vs mechanical.

When people ask me, what's it like to go fast, I explain its like sliding around the track at the limit of control.

Now literally think how that translates into a game? Some games do a good job of it but to Marks point their needs to be an output sensation that supports it as there is very few visual ques in real racing... Even breaking points/markers are used once and then its muscle memory the rest of the laps... In real racing. So visual aids are not that helpful and detract from what racing is to an extent. It takes 100s of laps in iRacing to finally get the limits of each car, then things start to gel... So you can compensate when you learn a car and sims limits but visual is not the answer. My real like racing is easier than a sim game, but harder to be the fastest. It's that edge of control in racing that has you making 1k decisions per minute... Like sprinting an the edge of a cliff for miles.

Pardon the long winded reply, but it's really a complicated thing to try and compare so I hope I'm making at least partial sence...

 

[ONT]

And the pro driver say :

"BMW Z4 GT3 – GT3 Slick Soft

Ok so this car I would say feels the most realistic GT3 car I have driven today.
The balance I feel is very believable and realistic where there is not ‘masses of grip’ and stability, but the correct amount of grip where the car requires full attention,
realistic techniques and input in order to keep the car pointing in the right direction.

Braking is very similar to the previous GT3 cars I have tested today, with brake modulation and control playing a vital part in getting the car stopped, but the main difference I felt with this car was that, braking into the apex affects the rear more due to instability caused when applying a small amount of steering lock at the same time.
This to me is great, as the general balance/ grip level of the car is at such a good level that, the behavior of the car either is controllable or uncontrollable depending on how aggressive the driver is. This adds another factor that not all of the GT3 cars have, which is that the driver has to think a lot more about the braking technique used, as this can ‘make or break’ your lap, which is how it should be."

"Race against some of the AI GT3 cars at Dubai International Choose 10 laps,
at 10 opponents, same class, 90% AI strength."

 

[Andy_J]

Lately for me, Pcars is a crash fest. Continuous crashing, locking my whole PC. Requiring a hard restart.

But when it does work, it is working well. But lately my attention has been taken by GSCE and Assetto Corsa. They are far more drivable at this present time in my opinion.

 

[William Wester]

pCARS has been running very well for me lately, and having some very good races with the AI and the FFB with some car/track combination is as good as any of my other sims. There are still inconsistencies (reliability and bugs) but its getting better every day; one step backward but usually two steps forward.
What works great for one doesn't necessarily work great for another because of the many platform hardware and software variables but they have given themselves more time to fine-tune with the Go-Live push to 2015 - very good decision.
I have to admit I have had my doubts on their ability to deliver the massive feature list while maintaining a high level of physics and FFB but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel - the good is VERY good! My $.02

 

[Sicario Del Toro]

Game is getting better and better as the weeks go by , it still will crash now and then when you start it first after update but a lot more stable than it used to be - since the FFB has being worked on and most setting are available now / sliders in setup menu - it has transformed the game for me amazingly , I would go as far to say it maybe become the best FFB game I have ever played , still a bit of work to get it on par with rF2 IMO , it takes a lot of testing before you will find the one that's works for you .

I know there will be a lot of people that will not share my opinion and that's fine , this game is not for everyone liking , but I'm having a blast testing new features they introduce .

I keep reminding myself that what I play now is not the finished product and will only get better , future of simulation racing looks sweet .

Only 3 months till the game is on sale , I think it will surprise most out there not just for the graphics but how the game will play and feels through the wheel .

 

[Jari Vinnari]

About 8 months ago I would not have recommend this game to any of my friends because car physics and FFB just felt so wrong. Back then I could only drive few laps before feeling frustrated how bad the cars felt to me.
Newest builds have improved the handling and FFB dramatically so Its now in point where its definitely alternative to AC and rF2. There is still need for improvements in many areas but now days its really worth of try and perhaps even your money in March 2015.

 

[David Cordell]

.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

WOW, had a look at that rain effect in Driveclub and you're right, that looks awesome! Here's me hoping pCars will implement something equally good looking!

 

[Rob]

WOW, had a look at that rain effect in Driveclub and you're right, that looks awesome! Here's me hoping pCars will implement something equally good looking!

If they didn't spend another second on the looks of the rain but instead diverted 100% of their efforts to getting the FFB and physics right in the rain, I'd be happy.

Question: Has anyone out there played Forza 5? If so, how does pCARS compare both in terms of looks, game performance and car handling? Thanks.