PC1 Latest Build testing.

[Andy_J]

As you all know, Ian gave me a free pass to test the latest builds and that's what I have been doing for the last week. I will report here as and when I see fit to tell all about my findings.

But I will say that the latest build (296) is quite good. Now lets make some sense of my statement. I used a Lotus 98T in helmet cam using my antique MOMO red wheel and I can honestly report it is coming along much better than I anticipated. The actual feel and immersion is damn fine at this point. The handling is strange at first compared to say...RF2 and FVA, but it grows on you within minutes. At this point in time, this actual car feels good. I like it and I love the Milan circuit. The damage model has come on leaps and bounds.

I am doing some more testing all of next week using a G27 and I will also test some of the other cars that don't interest me as much (I am a F1 nut) and see how the feel in comparison to Shift 2, because that is what I was initially comparing PCars to.

I would like the replay function to have a directors mode though. Something that jumps from action to action and from car to car.

Aside from that, the replay's do crash my PC quite often but I understand that is being looked at.

Watch this space.

 

[Tim Lundy]

It's great to hear that such tweaks are possible, so that anyone can improve their FFB if they feel like it, not just complain on forums and youtube how poor the FFB is...

So it will be possible to introduce those FFB tweaks into the PC version of the game after it's released, not just pre-release?

 

[ThatAntisocialKid]

Yes it's very nice. But hopefully SMS will release a build with the best FFB they can muster already in it?

But for now I will test the build with the FFB they release with it.

Andy, I really don't understand your apprehension to using a FFB tweaker. Surely you don't just play all other racing sims with default FFB settings? Adding the FFB tweaker file to a folder isn't all that different (in fact it's easier) than messing with settings in game to get it feeling how you like.

Even then, is it not worth just giving it a try? Where is the harm in it?

 

[Andy_J]

Andy, I really don't understand your apprehension to using a FFB tweaker. Surely you don't just play all other racing sims with default FFB settings? Adding the FFB tweaker file to a folder isn't all that different (in fact it's easier) than messing with settings in game to get it feeling how you like.

Even then, is it not worth just giving it a try? Where is the harm in it?

Hey kid, no apprehension, I have tried it. It works much better. It is easy to fix. (wondering why SMS have not incorporated tweaker files?)

You really don't understand what I am saying though do you? I test the builds as they come, as SMS release them, just like a magazine would test them. Simple. When they release a build with a good FFB then I will also test that and give my comments. Wheres' the harm in that? Is it causing harm? Why does the game need these files?

If you WMD investors know the FFB is bad, why don't you tell SMS and then you wouldn't have to use 3rd party files to try and improve the game.

 

[Mark Quigley]

Andy, the FFB is not bad for everyone and even then that is subjective.
These tweakers are not adding to the game, they are not 3rd party files, they are adjusted parameters that exist in the game already with a given value, these files change those values.
The FFB being so subjective, it must be difficult for SMS to sift through the noise relating to the FFB, give people the tools and see what they make.

All the tweakers I have tried have been worse imo which is unsettling when many sing their praises, am I looking for a different feeling from that which the masses want?

 

[Chronus]

Andy, the FFB is not bad for everyone and even then that is subjective.

If some, like Andy (need I remind you he is far from being alone in this regard?) believe that the current FFB is not good, that's their opinion and such an opinion should be looked into to find out where exactly things are not working right.

The FFB being so subjective, it must be difficult for SMS to sift through the noise relating to the FFB, give people the tools and see what they make.

Quite right. But question is: who gives the tools, and which tools?

Something crucial in all this: CARS is still a WIP, it doesn't make any sense to go fiddling with the FFB, potentially masking problems (which is curiously the opposite of what this type of development is all about, and also the opposite of the intended usage of the current FFB, which at some point was instrumental in pinpointing something in the physics engine).

All the tweakers I have tried have been worse imo which is unsettling when many sing their praises, am I looking for a different feeling from that which the masses want?

Precisely what I have been told again and again. And precisely why Andy's testing (and yours, it seems) is interesting: it gives devs and people what really is going on with CARS as is. No tweaks. No "pills".

I think you're spot on and your reasoning also points out something quite serious within the WMD forum.

There are all sort of "experts" blabbing on about "physical" models versus empirical models, fully dynamic models (humm....right) versus LUT based, etc.

The pseudo-expertise and myths propagated by several members act, inevitably, as a diversion on what really matters, and inadvertently contributes to filtering out much needed, highly technical feedback from a few members that actually know what they're talking about. The first 120 pages of AJ's thread (already hundreds of pages long) suffice to show this clearly. Instead of it simply being AJ's thread, instead of methodical, objective questions directed at AJ and possibly other physics programmers (with hopes these could be answered soon or at all), all sorts of pats-in-the-back posts, or worse, people blurting out what they read in some wiki.

Too many "supporters", "apologists" there.

 

[Mark Quigley]

If these tweakers were not in a file to be put into a folder but settings in the UI, would people feel different?
I would for no other reason than I am lazy.

"Too many "supporters", "apologists" there."

That's not exclusive to SMS but reflects the sim community in general.

edit:
I don't touch tweakers as I do not want tweakers to determine whether I enjoy the game or not, we may not have access to these parameters come release.
If we have access to these parameters via the UI then I will fiddle.
If we have access to these parameters via txt files then I might fiddle if something feels wrong.
If we do not have access to these parameters and something feels wrong then I will not use the software.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I dled yesterday, did some laps and uninstalled again.
As for the FFB tweeks, they definitely need to implement those ASAP, cause atm, the front feels "okay" but not much else, and it's a weird pendulumly feel to it under change of direction.

 

[Chronus]

"Too many "supporters", "apologists" there."

That's not exclusive to SMS but reflects the sim community in general.

Not quite. How many sims currently in development are based on crowd funding? How many have enticed prospective members by waving the "virtual office" flag and "be a part of the development" and "exchange impressions with the development team" catch-ideas?

Easy answer: none.

In such an environment, you'd expect a completely different level of professionalism. With the exception of Ermo (he made specific requests several times with regards to the "purity" AJ's thread), not many have tried to steer dialog/posts towards what one would expect of such a thread.

Wasting AJ's time with nonsensical posts (and scare away people with heavy backgrounds in vehicle engineering, physics and programming) was/is a mistake.

If we have access to these parameters via the UI then I will fiddle.
If we have access to these parameters via txt files then I might fiddle if something feels wrong.
If we do not have access to these parameters and something feels wrong then I will not use the software.

Then, you didn't understand Andy's point, nor my own.

Point taken (pardon the pun).


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David, what cars did you try this time around? Better FFB and physics in some, bad/worse/the same in others? What's your "specific" take on this?

 

[Mark Quigley]

Didn't realize that we were talking about how professional we feel the SMS forums are, apologies
It's a bit of a shock to find that when SMS opened their development doors to the random public that they would get a percentage of people who could be considered blind "supporters" or "apologists", you know, those who just reiterate the party line, from the sim community.
Wait, it's not a shock.
Its like filling a swimming pool with sea water then complaining it's salty.

As for everything else, I best not respond as that would give the false impression I care more than I do

 

[ThatAntisocialKid]

Hey kid, no apprehension, I have tried it. It works much better. It is easy to fix. (wondering why SMS have not incorporated tweaker files?)

Good to hear you tried them. SMS may choose to incorporate them (if enough people say they like them), but I'm not sure. The thing is, I think Jack Spades tweakers are for G25/7's, so they probably won't feel as good (if at all) on other wheels. I could be wrong though as I'm not actually to versed in the FFB tweakers. That brings up an issue though. Not only does each tire (GT3, GT4, LMP, etc) need tweaking so the FFB is at it's best, but they will need tweaking per wheel (g25/7, t500rs, etc.) as well. Once a few are done though I would expect work to become easier as I'm sure some pattern will form in the settings for each type of wheel.

You really don't understand what I am saying though do you? I test the builds as they come, as SMS release them, just like a magazine would test them. Simple. When they release a build with a good FFB then I will also test that and give my comments. Wheres' the harm in that? Is it causing harm? Why does the game need these files?

No I get that, I do the same. The FFB has been good enough for me so far to enjoy myself though for sure it is lacking, but I'll wait for SMS to really get working on FFB (which I think should be soon, I recall seeing some dev posts regarding FFB work ramping up soon I believe). The files are really just user customization, some people (maybe you included) might never be happy with how the FFB ends up, so the tweakers allow you to get something you like. I'd think it's better to have the tweakers available than not, no?

If you WMD investors know the FFB is bad, why don't you tell SMS and then you wouldn't have to use 3rd party files to try and improve the game.

Well like I said it's been good enough for me as is for now, and I'm fine with waiting for SMS to work on it (which they have stated they will be doing). But don't worry I think SMS know the FFB isn't good enough, the FFB tweaker thread is 156 pages afterall. That and in pretty well all of the physics testing threads people talk about FFB when giving feedback.

On a good note, I'm pretty confident that the FFB will come good. The Formula C R21 (and soon R22) tire was done with revamped FFB, though it's specifically designed for the G25/7 (which I have), and is much much better.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

David, what cars did you try this time around? Better FFB and physics in some, bad/worse/the same in others? What's your "specific" take on this?

I tested 3 or 4 cars, mainly the Formula B and BMW Z4, the Z4 "feels" decent on the front, but overall is unconvincing, including next to no simulated braking FFB, so the car feels lifeless under brakes and at the rear in general on top of the fact that this is really just a fixed up Shift3, and anyone who thinks otherwise is dreaming.

 

[Chronus]

Thanks David.

 

[Lawndart]

I tried shift 2 on a console, it was unplayable... So hearing shift 3 in any context is just terrifying.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

Just did three laps on the Nordschleife with the Lotus 49. With the FFB tweaker files loaded (as I praised above).

I couldn't help but think of Stewart and Clark et al who really drove these powerful, unsafe fuel laden missiles through the forest like this. The pCars ring looks magnificent, the 49 bringing out the view that much more. The FFB fighting me the whole lap... but in an immersive way. As if the road and the power to the rears with no downforce kept conspiring to put me in the guardrail. But being able to control it and keep it on the tarmac... most of the time.

I am not sure if the FFB is every single thing it should be... but on this run it felt like it was that and more. Immersed is the best way I can describe it-- constantly minding the throttle and the forces on the wheel.

I am also not sure the physics are exactly right... after all pCars, AC and iRacing all have the 49 and all do it slightly differently from a handling perspective. I personally find pCars splits the difference between iRacing and AC on handling. But no matter which one is more accurate... the pCars version on this track today was highly entertaining. The handling and FFB egging me on to push harder yet reminding me of the danger at the very same time.

Very fun. The 'new' ffb via tweaker files is a delight and a 49 at the ring... a great combination in this title.

Prayers for Bianchi.

I just tried the same combo tonight, 49 and green hell, first with default FFB and I must say that the default on the 49 is one of the more lively feeling cars (out of the ones I've tested).
Then to compare I tested Jack Spades tweaker file and my experiences was pretty much exactly the same as you had. I went from struggling with getting to grips with the balance on the car to suddenly pushing it hard cos it was communicating so much better what it was doing.
It took me one warmup lap and by lap two I got in the zone, you know, when you get so immersed and focused that you practically get tunnel vision, the KS2 in NetKar Pro used to take me there all the time, not many cars in other sims have ever done that. Much of it comes from the fact that both the 49 and the track requires you to be on top of your game 100% of the time, if you're not you will be punished very quickly. I'm rambling, so stoked, so looking forward to this release now and hope to see a giant multiplayer community post launch!

Edit: the tweaker file was by no means perfect though, as soon as the car was stationary I got some INSANE vibration going on in my wheel, so it needs some tweaking I guess.
But at the same time it made my GT3 wheel produce forces I was not aware it was capable of, much stronger than I knew it was lol

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

I tried shift 2 on a console, it was unplayable... So hearing shift 3 in any context is just terrifying.

I tested Shift 2 on PC and had the same experience, couldn't get through the tutorial cos the cars handled so awfully bad. ><
I find that pCars is nothing like Shift 2, but thats my opinion.

 

[Lawndart]

I tested Shift 2 on PC and had the same experience, couldn't get through the tutorial cos the cars handled so awfully bad. ><
I find that pCars is nothing like Shift 2, but thats my opinion.

That is encouraging, thanks for that.

 

[Neil Hopwood]

That is encouraging, thanks for that.

Personally I take most anything David say with a grain of salt. A while back he spent a great deal of time and energy trying to convince everything that pCARS use center point physics.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I tried shift 2 on a console, it was unplayable... So hearing shift 3 in any context is just terrifying.

It's a fixed up shift3, ie, the cars drive in straight lines now, lol.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Personally I take most anything David say with a grain of salt. A while back he spent a great deal of time and energy trying to convince everything that pCARS use center point physics.

That's what it feels like and to some degree still has that feeling.....the builds have changed over the years but not to sim status.

 

[Sele1981]

I tried shift 2 on a console, it was unplayable... So hearing shift 3 in any context is just terrifying.

In an other forum we had a talk about Assetto Corsa and Race Room. So I think AC is better in physics and R3E is too easy to drive. And the others say the opposite. They say AC is too easy to drive and R3E is king.

So I learned one thing in my "sim racing career". Try everything by yourself first before trusting the opinion of other people. Because it can hit your taste where others don´t like it.