PC1 Latest Build testing.

[Andy_J]

As you all know, Ian gave me a free pass to test the latest builds and that's what I have been doing for the last week. I will report here as and when I see fit to tell all about my findings.

But I will say that the latest build (296) is quite good. Now lets make some sense of my statement. I used a Lotus 98T in helmet cam using my antique MOMO red wheel and I can honestly report it is coming along much better than I anticipated. The actual feel and immersion is damn fine at this point. The handling is strange at first compared to say...RF2 and FVA, but it grows on you within minutes. At this point in time, this actual car feels good. I like it and I love the Milan circuit. The damage model has come on leaps and bounds.

I am doing some more testing all of next week using a G27 and I will also test some of the other cars that don't interest me as much (I am a F1 nut) and see how the feel in comparison to Shift 2, because that is what I was initially comparing PCars to.

I would like the replay function to have a directors mode though. Something that jumps from action to action and from car to car.

Aside from that, the replay's do crash my PC quite often but I understand that is being looked at.

Watch this space.

 

[Hired Goon]

I have given up doing races with the AI. I just do lone races now as car testing. The AI is rubbish at the moment.

As much as I like the title, I have to agree that the AI is poor, but obviously it will improve. I can't take the frustration either so I also stick to lone laps. I'm hoping they implement allowing AI cars while in free practice soon (has been stated they would). Would make it seem a little less solitary to have a few cars in the practice session.

 

[ONT]

As much as I like the title, I have to agree that the AI is poor, but obviously it will improve. I can't take the frustration either so I also stick to lone laps. I'm hoping they implement allowing AI cars while in free practice soon (has been stated they would). Would make it seem a little less solitary to have a few cars in the practice session.

You can start a race with 2-4 mixed class cars and set for 60 laps, select start position last, and give the cars a few laps start.

Now You got a hack for a track day feel until they implement multiple cars in practice

 

[Birddogg66]

I have given up doing races with the AI. I just do lone races now as car testing. The AI is rubbish at the moment.

This is an area at least for me I like some predictability from the AI as is what you will see in RL as far as other drivers keeping their lines good breaking points being able to run in packs and so forth. There are old games that do these things really well. I guess the bulk of the developers out there feel they need to ride the wave of next generation technology without really knowing how long that will take to perfect. A bit of a catch 22 IMO

 

[Arne Dopudja]

Is there AI learning implemented in the game, like LFS? Or just preprogrammed as simbin?

 

[Chronus]

Or just preprogrammed as simbin?

Learning mode of the AI in LFS was switched off years ago. Now, it's as "preprogrammed" (your words) as any other sim's.

Probably, a tip of the iceberg kind of comment in regards to too many misconceptions about ISIMotor2 and sims in general.

 

[Andy_J]

The AI im Pcars needs serious attention. I prefer single player rather than the crash fest populated multiplayer games. So come on WMD, get it sorted.

 

[Damage Inc]

Loire has come on leaps and bounds recently, although I could do with the brake markers for the two chicanes on the Mulsanne straight.

 

[Chronus]

The AI im Pcars needs serious attention. I prefer single player rather than the crash fest populated multiplayer games. So come on WMD, get it sorted.

In another forum, someone requested the same as you, but in regards to another sim in development. The request/question was jumped on by "people" who don't look at AI in the way you or I look (probably due to obvious interests in promoting leagues).

With the focus on multiplayer features, we won't probably see AI at the level we saw in GTR2/Race07/rFactor (in particular after extensive but successful modding efforts to revamp them).

AI also represents a lot of programming effort so for some, why bother?

 

[William Wester]

I think I know the thread you are talking of, and if so, I was one of those "people" but I was responding to the comment of online being crash fests. I too want good AI as I don't have time to race online most of the time. But, when I have raced online in the RD club races they were not even close to crash fests - very clean. The problem with AI in most games is they are very inconsistent, too fast, or too slow. Online, the competition is fast and slow, I think I am somewhere in the middle, and they typically don't do the bone-head moves of an AI driver. And this is coming from someone that does very little online vs AI.

 

[Chronus]

I don't know you, so can't comment on what those comments might have been.

The thread in question represents a fundamental change in simracing - probably brought forth by iRacing (which is and will be for some time unbeatable as a virtual racing service): a lot of people don't care about AI anymore.

As for the "AI in most games" being "inconsistent", I tend to agree.
- LFS used to have a challenging AI (after they a few hundreds or thousands of learning laps).
- GT5's AI is atrocious. FM4 and 5, from what I have seen thus far and what others experienced, also have very poor AI - but then, it shouldn't surprise anyone, these are console titles.

After some tweaking, NFS Shift 2 can be interesting.
With some tweaking and proper physics, GTR2/Race07/rFactor become as challenging and well behaved as the best human pilots. All of the people I have worked with/for say the exact same thing.

GSC2012's AI is already quite good. With different cars and physics, different AI calibration becomes necessary, and the game engine responds accordingly (i.e., perfectly).

So, the know-how by SMS, ISI, SIMBIN and a few modders is there to "cook" up very challenging, unpredictable and clever AI.

 

[Chronus]

In regards to leagues:

it depends. I have experienced iRacing and private/public NKP or rF/GTR2 leagues. None are idiot free. Sometimes, it gets frustrating enough to the point where people simply disconnect so as to avoid discussions with other members.

The best experiences I and others have had were with pro racing drivers, virtually idiot-free.

In light of that, offline with proper AI becomes quite appealing to enough of us.

Problem is, and after talking to several developers I am sure this is becoming widespread, the development of good, consistent AI is no longer an important goal (or even advisable).

 

[Chris Partridge]

The best experiences I and others have had were with pro racing drivers, virtually idiot-free.

I remember a race in iRacing with Richard Westbrook at Mid-Ohio in the Oreca LMP2 car. He was right on my bumper for several laps and to be honest I was a bit freaked by the closeness of the racing (now that's a compliment to iRacing's MP code). In the end he passed, inevitably, but it was a great racing experience.

 

[Chronus]

Precisely. I wasn't referring to iRacing only, I have been fortunate to share some races with very good pilots in a number of sims and leagues, and it is that way - they close in on you, do not make any mistakes (or when they do they're so patient about it that usually don't crash or take you out). There's no crash fest with them ( even if in RL pro drivers sometimes wreak havoc in real cars and tracks ).

Hence why I think offline play is a must for any sim worth its salt.

 

[Damage Inc]

Don't forget that not all cars have a full Ai model yet, there's a thread over at WMD with a spreadsheet called the Aries-Physics tracker with info on the cars and the various stages of development. Complaining about a car with no Ai model is pointless, but if a car has an RC Ai model and is causing problems then SMS NEED the details, to tweak the Ai code. There is a lot of work being done in this area. Personally i think the Ai at the moment is too unpredictable.

Cars with most advanced Ai are:

All Ariels
Audi R8 LMS ultra
BMW M3 GT
BMW M3 GT4
BMW Z4 GT3
Ford Mustang Boss 302R1
Ginetta G55 GT3
McL MP4 12c GT3
Merc SLS GT3
RUF RGT-8

 

[Chronus]

This is an area at least for me I like some predictability from the AI as is what you will see in RL as far as other drivers keeping their lines good breaking points being able to run in packs and so forth. There are old games that do these things really well. I guess the bulk of the developers out there feel they need to ride the wave of next generation technology without really knowing how long that will take to perfect. A bit of a catch 22 IMO

Interesting.

There are projects or already produced games with AI using complex genetic algorithms and simulating in some way neural networks processing. I doubt that could be applicable to racing sims, given the complexity and computational costs of physics and graphics programming (not to mention solid netcode, something in which iRacing excels and even rF is very very good). On the other hand, Scawen implemented an initial AI model which had intriguing aspects to it (and innovative), so maybe expecting even better AI is not that farfetched.

As for taking the time to perfect...

Judging from what's been surfacing about "next gen sims", the bulk of development lies in gfx, netcode and a little bit of physics. Very little innovation or investment is happening in the area of AI, so there's no real search for "perfection" of AI models. As a certain dev said, the focus is on multiplayer "gaming".

 

[Chris Partridge]

Judging from what's been surfacing about "next gen sims", the bulk of development lies in gfx, netcode and a little bit of physics. Very little innovation or investment is happening in the area of AI, so there's no real search for "perfection" of AI models. As a certain dev said, the focus is on multiplayer "gaming".

If correct then that is quite depressing to hear.

There remains a huge amount of interest in offline racing - despite the fashionability for online stuff. AI can be done, and done extremely well, with current standards. rFactor 2 I think has a fantastic AI model. I did a 40-lap race in real time at Le Mans last week and could not find much at all to fault - and this was looking at driving lines, braking, pit stop strategies (bang on RL GTE Pro levels BTW in the URD mod).

Offline racing is vital to get right because the organising required for a decent MP race takes too much time to do too frequently. We are all pressed for time which is why the "jump in and race against opponents right away" approach is important.

Looking around at the competition, even the hardcore sims like iRacing - with their unbeatable netcode functionality - struggle to have big grids sometimes. Similarly, the rF2 servers aren't massively brimming with users outside of a few dedicated leagues - and rF2 have human driver swaps etc...

 

[Chronus]

I agree (though I don't know about rF2's AI as I haven't dealt with it yet).

Looking at GT5/6 and FMxx forums, not only are people generally unhappy with the AI in both games (even considering the drivatar AI in FM5) but most posters dismiss complaints as of less importance than the other things (number of cars, race management, graphics, sounds being off or not).

Most devs (ISI, definitely, aren't like "most") respond to what's being sought after by the "masses". Considering budget issues, time constraints, even development team composition, it's not surprising that they relegate some things to the back seat.

For those interested, here's an interesting piece on AI:
http://research.ncl.ac.uk/game/mast...Artificial Intelligence in Games Tutorial.pdf

 

[Chris Partridge]

Yes chasing the mass market "generally" lowers the denominator.

 

[Andy_J]

Grand Prix 4 had the best AI in any race game and that's a fact. If only Geoff Crammond could get involved with a good development house. Besides graphic improvements and net code, most race sims have gone backwards in my opinion.

 

[Chronus]

In regards to AI, I'd say you're right. In regards to physics, I disagree.

Netcode? Look at NR2003, released no more than 7 months later than GP4, already had netcode which even today is considered one of the best.

Still, I emphasize what was previously stated, with the AI in rFactor/GTR2/Race07 properly calibrated, these sims become a whole new ball game (no pun intended).