PC1 Latest Build testing.

[Andy_J]

As you all know, Ian gave me a free pass to test the latest builds and that's what I have been doing for the last week. I will report here as and when I see fit to tell all about my findings.

But I will say that the latest build (296) is quite good. Now lets make some sense of my statement. I used a Lotus 98T in helmet cam using my antique MOMO red wheel and I can honestly report it is coming along much better than I anticipated. The actual feel and immersion is damn fine at this point. The handling is strange at first compared to say...RF2 and FVA, but it grows on you within minutes. At this point in time, this actual car feels good. I like it and I love the Milan circuit. The damage model has come on leaps and bounds.

I am doing some more testing all of next week using a G27 and I will also test some of the other cars that don't interest me as much (I am a F1 nut) and see how the feel in comparison to Shift 2, because that is what I was initially comparing PCars to.

I would like the replay function to have a directors mode though. Something that jumps from action to action and from car to car.

Aside from that, the replay's do crash my PC quite often but I understand that is being looked at.

Watch this space.

 

[Damage Inc]

Is it even possible to properly replicate human thought processes in simple tasks? The act of driving a race car is incredibly complex, does any Ai coding stand a chance of properly emulating that?

Is the best way a fudge? Give the Ai the basic line then pre program "behaviour" to "fool" the gamer into thinking they are racing a human?

 

[Chronus]

If you talk to some bioengineers, biologists and computer scientists, neural networks, genetic algorithms will provide what you wrote in your question.

AI programming is a very complex subject, and what the average simracer hears or reads about is, simply put, just the tip of tip of the iceberg. ISIMotor2 AI's complexity goes much, much beyond fudges, and I bet the same can be said about AC's. And, -Leper-, it's not about "fooling" anyone, but rather about providing a challenge to human drivers.

 

[Damage Inc]

yeah I know loads of Bioengineers, biologists and computer scientists!!!

I can understand that a very poweful computer "devoted" to Ai can do it, but as mentioned a computer has to do a bit more than just Ai, hence my "fool" argument. With clever behavioural programming I believe it is possible to give the "impression" that the Ai are human. With limited resources available to the Ai coders then I think that would be a more prudent way to go.

You mention "challenge" that's fair enough but that "challenge" is different from one person to the next, so that "challenge" needs to be easily scaled for a game to appeal to the widest possible market.

Personally I just want games to have the Ai more or less stick to the fastest racing line with minimal deviation unless overtaking or defending, and sticking within the track boundaries too, many games (especially some motorbike games) have the Ai bomb down the inside and cut corners as if grass is as grippy as tarmac!! Track boundaries should be as sacrosanct as possible.

I also think the Ai should be more "aware" and have better avoidance coding when around the human player because lets face it most gamers have a severely restrictive view of what's going on, peripheral vision is non existant and for those who like to race in cockpit view it's even more restrictive. The onus should be on the Ai to avoid collisions, and that would allow decent players to race door to door with the Ai. Sure it would enable prats to exploit and easily win, but I race as fair as I can against the Ai. Most real drivers unless taken by surprise (or are aggressively shutting the door/blocking/overtaking) do their level best to avoid contact.

 

[Chronus]

Personally I just want games to have the Ai more or less stick to the fastest racing line with minimal deviation unless overtaking or defending, and sticking within the track boundaries [...]

I also think the Ai should be more "aware" and have better avoidance coding when around the human player [...] but I race as fair as I can against the Ai. Most real drivers unless taken by surprise (or are aggressively shutting the door/blocking/overtaking) do their level best to avoid contact.

Unfortunately, way too many "simracers" don't value "older" titles (I know, gfx are sacrosanct for them)...but I am very fortunate to experience THAT VERY SAME AI described in the quotes above.

The relentless work done by IRG co-founder Barry on the AI throughout the years is simply astonishing. To the point where some very well known "alien drivers" (from iRacing too) say it's like competing against other human beings.

In a word, after applying the changes he recommends, the AI in any of these sims become "organic".

AI can be patient, impatient, try to pass in different ways, pressurize you, step back a little if they detect erratic behaviour; they will pass as soon as they get the slightest of chances and they can block again and again (though this doesn't quite work the same way in rF, given that ISI "removed" AI blocking behavior). You can engage in some fierce side-by-side action against them when approaching corners (who gives up first?). You'll also see them avoid wreckages, debris, slower cars.

All the above is missing from the default AI definitions (vanilla installs). Gotta wonder why...

Hence why I agreed with Andy, in regards to AI we have gone backwards. For some odd reason. People have simply exchanged good simracing (with more car licenses) for next-gen gfx (better shaders, real time reflections, etc, etc).

 

[Damage Inc]

I also agree. It's a problem with the entire games industry not just simracing, with the concentration on certain aspects (graphics and multiplayer) at the expense of others (storylines, single player, Ai).

Can you elaborate on this IRG/Barry chap.

 

[Chris Partridge]

^^ rF2 has blocking AI implemented. Try it down the Wellington Straight with a bunch of GTRs.

 

[Chronus]

I also agree. It's a problem with the entire games industry not just simracing, with the concentration on certain aspects (graphics and multiplayer) at the expense of others (storylines, single player, Ai).

Can you elaborate on this IRG/Barry chap.

The IRG is a modding group, responsible for GTR2 Reborn (and an upcoming project).

The involvement of one of the founders with simracing and ISIMotor, Barry, goes back to F1C. There are still threads with him and autosimsport magazine folks (and RSC guys) discussing AI and physics of sims of that time.

 

[Damage Inc]

GTR2 reborn....bejaysus I remember reading about that years ago, but got sidetracked by involvement in pCARS. I've been meaning to re-install GTR2 several times but things always get in the way. Someone needs to invent a device to let us get a full nights sleep in a a few minutes!!

 

[Andy_J]

Latest testing from me: same old same old. AI still rubbish. Graphics over content seems to be the name of the game. Lets hope hey? A bit like England at the world cup.

 

[Damage Inc]

Same old rubbish comments from Andy I see, Any info on what car or track combo he's testing?....What he's doing is checking out the Mona Lisa halfway through and saying "that's a bit crap Leonardo, buck up son"!!

NOT all tracks have finalised AIW (and even the more complete ones could well be tweaked in the future), NOT all cars have been optimised for the AI. So everyone take his words with a massive pinch of salt, the game and Ai is still VERY much WIP. Also, once again how many times do we have to say that the Ai programmer is NOT the graphics coder....it's a different chap doing the Ai, I wish Andy would keep up with the world of developing games!

In the main, I agree with the jist of what he is saying....the Ai needs and IS getting a lot of work. Sadly for me at the moment the devs are concentrating on getting the Ai maxed out as good as possible so it's too fast for me and the sliders do nowt.

 

[Damage Inc]

Had a really good blap this morning, Cadwell in the Mugen Atom is a shedload of fun! Track is coming along VERY nicely. Also had fun in the same car at Oulton Park too. If the game comes together as a coherent whole then it will be excellent. Personally I would prefer it if there wasn't a set in stone release date....I kind of thought that not having a publisher meant there was more freedom in releasing a game. I just want the game 100% when it leaves the door, if that means spring next year I don't care. There still seems an awful lot to do, I'd hate to be under that sort of time pressure, then again it's probably normal for them!!

 

[traind]

Latest testing from me: same old same old. AI still rubbish. Graphics over content seems to be the name of the game. Lets hope hey? A bit like England at the world cup.

The AI are being worked on separately for each model of car-- the latest developer notes in the physics area show which ones they have worked on recently. New AI updates will probably go in Monday for Atoms, Audi R8 and the Caterham r500.

 

[Andy_J]

The AI are being worked on separately for each model of car-- the latest developer notes in the physics area show which ones they have worked on recently. New AI updates will probably go in Monday for Atoms, Audi R8 and the Caterham r500.

Thank you traind. Good to hear. They really do need to sort the AI out. It's coming on leaps and bounds in general (the game that is) but just some areas need more of a concerted effort. The external replay cameras are pretty bad too at the moment in my opinion but I am sure someone is working on them. There is a lot to do before Beta stage.

 

[traind]

There is a lot to do yet... but the way the handling feel is coming on as tires get closer to final is certainly very encouraging. They have a bigger team than Kunos or ISI so other areas under focus should get done but the core handling model is as much art as science so the advances there are most critical. It was never a sure thing that they would get the feel right but at this point I am finding it hard to imagine they won't based upon the work done in recent months.

For those of you who don't have access to pcars I'll share a little comparison I did over the weekend between iracing, pcars and assetto corsa. I used the Lotus 49 and a GT car (Z4 GT3 for pcars and AC, Ford GT for iracing). The comparison was fairly quick so please excuse any errors in these impressions.

High level impressions: iRacing has very nice FFB but, despite solid advances to the tire model, it definitely still feels the easiest to lose the back end either under power or braking. The Lotus 49 feels very, very lively but also quite dangerous. It slides at will-- and you can catch it-- but it slides really, really easily under throttle. The Ford GT is pretty easy to control in comparison but will also power oversteer more easily than the GT cars in the other titles. Both cars are fun but the 49 goes a little into the frustrating category as it is so twitchy. A challenge but also a bit frustrating. I am sure you can dial a lot of that out but I stayed mostly with default set-ups for comparison purposes.

pCars is next in the continuum as far as amount of grip feel and tendency to slide the rear end. FFB is good on the two cars I tested-- maybe not quite as lively as iRacing but good. The grip levels feel higher than iRacing and the ability to control slides at the limit is better. This gives the feeling that pCars is a bit easier at the limit but it remains very entertaining with these particular cars. Power on oversteer is easy to produce in the 49 and very controllable if you are relatively quick with the wheel/throttle. It is not necessarily easy to get it right at the limit and keep everything on apex but it is easier than doing the same in iRacing's 49. The Z4 GT3 feels quite good in pCars. Again, arguably, iRacing's Ford GT FFB might be a bit better than pCars but the ffb feel at the limit in the Z4 is good. You have to watch the throttle but you feel like you can hammer things pretty hard (up to a point) where as in iRacing you are dancing more delicately-- or at least it feels that way. The sound in the pCars Z4 is much more immersive compared to the iRacing Ford GT or the AC version for that matter.

AC is further down the continuum as far as amount of grip feel. The Z4GT3 in particular feels like it grips much more than both other titles. In fact, with tires that aren't worn or cold, it takes a lot of effort to get to power on oversteer in the default set-up. The feel of the Z4 GT3 is great but you are not as worried about throttle application mid corner as you are in pCars and it is really a different league to the feel in iRacing at the other end of the spectrum. this produces a feeling in AC that you are really man-handling the GT3 cars into the corner before you fear any type of oversteer. It is a different feel-- whether better or worse will depend on individual drivers I suppose. The AC 49 also feels like it has more grip than either of the other two titles. Still, it is a powerful F1 car with no downforce so it will oversteer on throttle at will-- it just takes a bit more prodding than the pCars 49 does and much more than required by the iRacing version. Slides in the 49 can be controlled easier than in iRacing and perhaps with a slight bit more difficulty than the pCars 49 or about even. I should note that the extra grip feel in AC also comes with the most realistic feel between the tires and the road of the three. Something about that interface just feels exemplary in AC even though some of the FFB detail is not as good as it is in iRacing.

Since this is a pCars thread-- I'll summarize from that perspective.

If all cars end up feeling as good as these two in pCars then it will be a unique and admirable handling/physics foundation for the title. Certainly not everyone will see it as the best handling feel available as individual tastes will vary. But these two cars are high quality and should get the attention of anyone who has a racing wheel. If things like AI come through well as the handling feel is, when combined with the very strong feature set for the money (tracks, cars, sounds, graphics, rain, 24 hour cycle etc) ..... it is hard to see pCars not being a no-brainer purchase for the majority of sim racers.

 

[yusupov]

i still maintain that AC is actually just more realistic with grip levels, but that debate wont be settled here (or anywhere else); just throwing it out there. thanks for sharing yr experience w/ the different sims. i agree pcars is an instabuy for me as soon as its made available for public purchase.

 

[ibergman]

which 49 tire in pCars? default is more grip vintage is era grip.

 

[traind]

which 49 tire in pCars? default is more grip vintage is era grip.

I stayed with default for the little comparison. AC and iRacing only have 1 tire for the 49. pCars has 7 or 8 at the moment... there will be less in the final version I am sure. The one vintage tire I tried did make it feel more like iracing-- oversteering at the drop of the throttle but with slightly less control than iRacing offered, IMO. The other vintage tires might be better but I preferred the default to vintage r1.

 

[spyros papadopoulos]

The IRG is a modding group, responsible for GTR2 Reborn (and an upcoming project).

The involvement of one of the founders with simracing and ISIMotor, Barry, goes back to F1C. There are still threads with him and autosimsport magazine folks (and RSC guys) discussing AI and physics of sims of that time.

upcoming project??? you caught my attention and raised my excitement! does it start with R and ends with ace07?

 

[Chronus]

upcoming project??? you caught my attention and raised my excitement! does it start with R and ends with ace07?

Hey, Spyros.

Well...

There is something (independent) brewing with a well known simracer from the land of V8 Supercars, for Race07/GTR E. (and GSC).

The "upcoming project" with the IRG is related to GTR2 solely - at least for now. With the extensive data (for GT3 and GT4 categories) and tools at my/our disposal, more than 95% of the work is done. The team, right now, is rather small (Life has had its way on all of us), so we are taking small steps.

Still plenty of interest (and life) in "old" sims, which is a good thing for simracing.

 

[spyros papadopoulos]

aha! i remember you were experimenting with modern gt3 physics in gtr2. that sounds great! any chance for a hint what graphic models you're gonna use?

ps: one small step closer to my absolute gtr2 fantasy, a lemans 2011 field by IRG