PC1 Latest Build testing.

[Andy_J]

As you all know, Ian gave me a free pass to test the latest builds and that's what I have been doing for the last week. I will report here as and when I see fit to tell all about my findings.

But I will say that the latest build (296) is quite good. Now lets make some sense of my statement. I used a Lotus 98T in helmet cam using my antique MOMO red wheel and I can honestly report it is coming along much better than I anticipated. The actual feel and immersion is damn fine at this point. The handling is strange at first compared to say...RF2 and FVA, but it grows on you within minutes. At this point in time, this actual car feels good. I like it and I love the Milan circuit. The damage model has come on leaps and bounds.

I am doing some more testing all of next week using a G27 and I will also test some of the other cars that don't interest me as much (I am a F1 nut) and see how the feel in comparison to Shift 2, because that is what I was initially comparing PCars to.

I would like the replay function to have a directors mode though. Something that jumps from action to action and from car to car.

Aside from that, the replay's do crash my PC quite often but I understand that is being looked at.

Watch this space.

 

[giveme5]

You can hop skip and jump in your own car, fling around corners and feel the forces registering thru your body, however, in sims, we only have FFB via the wheel to approximate this, and "most" traditional sims do this well, but Pcars tends to suck a bit, but if it's Shift3 then it's not as critical.

I asked specifically for chassis flex.
Let say, you're lucky enough to do few laps in real GT3 car, would you feel chassis flex?

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I asked specifically for chassis flex.
Let say, you're lucky enough to do few laps in real GT3 car, would you feel chassis flex?

I suspect I'd feel the weight shift, I do in my own car, so why wouldn't I at extreme speed?
You another one who's never driven a car, don't have a drivers licence etc?

 

[giveme5]

I suspect I'd feel the weight shift, I do in my own car, so why wouldn't I at extreme speed?

You are avoiding answer to my very specific question about body flex.
But since I'm in good mood, let me explain it to you. Example: for BMW E92 it takes 25000 Nm of torque to twist it 10mm on longitudinal axis. This roughly translate into 2-3mm under very heavy racing conditions, thus you as a driver wouldn't really feel it because it is masked by suspension work. In case of BMW M3 GT race ready car with all the bracing, has less than 1mm body flex under most race conditions. Not even pro driver would feel it, unless it has AESA radar implant in his ass.

Conclusion; either you feel something what isn't there, or your realistic sims model this part of physics wrongly.
Most likely is the former and that lead me to question of what other parts of feedback you interpret incorrectly.

Weight shift: is there. For some cars more than others. Maybe not as pronounced as it should be due to how visual cues are set by default, plus collisions at the moment are giving wrong impression about car weights.

Before pCars leaderboards reset I checked out your times and you're miles away from even remotely driving any car close to its limits, hence for you, nearly impossible to judge finer aspects of physics.
(similar to another heavy critic here which drives with all aids on)

Furthermore, you never bothered to setup cars properly, all were driven on default setup, which in most cases are placeholders and just not good enough to judge either the car physics or the FFB.

You never made any effort to understand why FFB, in its current state, is far from optimal. Tires, cars, physics are under heavy development and in constant flux. It makes no sense to do extra work and polish FFB before other, physics related work is done. So if you expect FFB as it should be in finished product, use the finished products only. Avoid any title in development.

90% of your posts at WMD forums are rants and complaints about other games. 5% are apologies to SMS and in 5% you're justifying your irrational critism of pCars as your right.

There's not a single post where you would actually give any kind of useful feedback.
(I would suggest reading Ben Collins posts as an example of a good and useful feedback)

So, after all is said and done, If you wish to criticize pCars, or any other sim/game, have your arguments based on facts, otherwise, after few of your rants, nobody will take you seriously.

You another one who's never driven a car, don't have a drivers licence etc?

Argumentum ad hominem, which by itself I don't mind as long as it is factual. Yours isn't.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Before pCars leaderboards reset I checked out your times and you're miles away from even remotely driving any car close to its limits,

Ahhhh, sorry hyper sensitive investor, but I regularly put cars of my choosing in the top 10 and made posts about it at this very forum, as such, any pcars member could've verified my times back then.

Atm, pcars is shaping up to be Shift3 and heavily marketed to casual gaming fans under the guise of being a sim, and whilst I don't consider it to be a sim, and feel it's unlikely it'll ever be one, my main concern is that it's a good racing game, FYI I bought F1 2012 even after the sampling the arcadey demo.

IMO, you're making a fool of yourself trying to promote that game as a sim, you're far better of promoting whatever good qualities it has, but pcars still can't match old sims like GTR or GT Legends, and oddly enough, they aren't even close to the precision that free to play BMW M3 had back in 2007.

 

[giveme5]

Ahhhh, sorry hyper sensitive investor..

Well, I guess you just can't stop calling people names...

IMO, you're making a fool of yourself

Keep practicing. Maybe one day you'll be capable of putting together something of a substance.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Keep practicing. Maybe one day you'll be capable of putting together something of a substance.

Go back to WMD and focus on building a good game, but leave the sim building to Kunos, Reiza and ISI.

 

[Chronus]

You are avoiding answer to my very specific question about body flex.
But since I'm in good mood, let me explain it to you. Example: for BMW E92 it takes 25000 Nm of torque to twist it 10mm on longitudinal axis. This roughly translate into 2-3mm under very heavy racing conditions, thus you as a driver wouldn't really feel it because it is masked by suspension work. In case of BMW M3 GT race ready car with all the bracing, has less than 1mm body flex under most race conditions. Not even pro driver would feel it, unless it has AESA radar implant in his ass.

And your source for this...?

Take a look at your own numbers (to be credible, you either have those figures from BMW themselves, or a racing team employing the E92 or a fact sheet from a test center). The figures I was given point to a threshold for longitudinal flex above 30 000 Nm per degree and slightly higher than that for lateral flex (track placement and axles diffuse the effect a little)...for some cars. These figures are notoriously lower for convertibles and different between unybodies and non-unybodies. Again, variations do exist, which obviously translates into more or less flex, higher or lower suspension efficiency.

Also, you focus on longitudinal "twist" only.

Depending on the car and construction type, your conclusion may be wrong. Maybe suspension movements can effectively mask any body flex felt by the driver, but the consequences of having a higher level of flex go beyond the immediate sensation of it. Ineffective suspension work impairs the driving experience markedly; if a car has proper/modern suspension geometry and adequate weight distribution, the flaws can be traced to body flex when it exists.

or your realistic sims model this part of physics wrongly.

Some sims will allow you to define the rigidity, springiness and damping abilities of a chassis. You can mimic body flex or lack of it.

Weight shift: is there. For some cars more than others. Maybe not as pronounced as it should be due to how visual cues are set by default, plus collisions at the moment are giving wrong impression about car weights.

Visual cues...??

The objective is not to see them, the objective is to have weight transfers affect handling. Some people seem to require FFB for that and report something amiss there (which I already explained as not being relevant at all, as FFB may not reflect the accuracy of the physics engine underneath it). Others do not require FFB and analyse handling in different ways.

If you need visual cues for that...

Before pCars leaderboards reset I checked out your times and you're miles away from even remotely driving any car close to its limits, hence for you, nearly impossible to judge finer aspects of physics.
(similar to another heavy critic here which drives with all aids on)

Again some confusion. Driving on the limits (what is that exactly for you? exploiting the physics flaws as aliens do? Or just below that level?) does not necessarily translate to understanding the "finer aspects of physics". Most people I know at iRacing are at the top tier classes, and obscenely fast and have little to no clue of what physics is or why the sim is doing what it is doing or what it is doing wrongly.

If you wish to understand how grip is regained after losing control at high speeds, then you drive at those speeds and lose control and try to regain it. But if you wish to understand if any lift off oversteer happens (at low to medium speeds) in certain situations, you don't need to go fast or close to the limits.

You equate being fast ("times") to driving "any car close to its limits", and worse still, equate driving on the limits with understanding physics (or the "finer" things it it, whatever that means).

You should have addressed David's complaints per se, instead of making it personal with him.

90% of your posts at WMD forums are rants and complaints about other games. 5% are apologies to SMS and in 5% you're justifying your irrational critism of pCars as your right.

That, above, is why WMD members get a very bad rep. Bad move, man.

 

[giveme5]

And your source for this...?

Take a look at your own numbers (to be credible, you either have those figures from BMW themselves, or a racing team employing the E92 or a fact sheet from a test center). The figures I was given point to a threshold for longitudinal flex above 30 000 Nm per degree and slightly higher than that for lateral flex (track placement and axles diffuse the effect a little)...for some cars. These figures are notoriously lower for convertibles and different between unybodies and non-unybodies. Again, variations do exist, which obviously translates into more or less flex, higher or lower suspension efficiency.

Also, you focus on longitudinal "twist" only.

1 degree of torsion flex (twist) is about 15mm in given example. Of course, width would vary among the cars, that's why I gave specific model as an example.

Why focus on "twist"? Let me answer with the question. Why do you think torsion flex is important for lets say karts?

Depending on the car and construction type, your conclusion may be wrong. Maybe suspension movements can effectively mask any body flex felt by the driver, but the consequences of having a higher level of flex go beyond the immediate sensation of it. Ineffective suspension work impairs the driving experience markedly; if a car has proper/modern suspension geometry and adequate weight distribution, the flaws can be traced to body flex when it exists.

Why would my conclusion be wrong? I wasn't really going into why chassis flex plays such a big role in racing, but can the driver actually feel it and knowing it's chassis flex and not something else, like bad setup. If I'd replace the chassis with less rigid one, without driver knowing it, would the driver be able to tell the reason 'why' car feels different?

Even less so in a sim...

Some sims will allow you to define the rigidity, springiness and damping abilities of a chassis. You can mimic body flex or lack of it.

Why is chassis flex (in most cases) so undesirable? Because unlike suspension, it's not as easy predictable, it'll change with the age of the chassis, has little to no dumping, it's not adjustable, it's not linear, and so on and on...

Yes, to an extent, you can model that in a sim, but how accurate?. Accurate data is hard to come by and in modern day racing cars there's not much of flex anyway.

It make sense if you do a karting sim, but for the majority of racing sims it doesn't matter as much.

Visual cues...??

The objective is not to see them, the objective is to have weight transfers affect handling. Some people seem to require FFB for that and report something amiss there (which I already explained as not being relevant at all, as FFB may not reflect the accuracy of the physics engine underneath it). Others do not require FFB and analyse handling in different ways.

If you need visual cues for that...

Apologies, it was a typo, it should be visual clues.
And yes, if you take away FFB, most of the feedback about car handling is visual. Some can be done with sound, but most is visual. Just limitation of current technology.

You should have addressed David's complaints per se, instead of making it personal with him.

That, above, is why WMD members get a very bad rep. Bad move, man.

Guess you left out the part where he started personal attacks, let me quote that part for you:

You another one who's never driven a car, don't have a drivers licence etc?

Probably would be better to just ignore him, but I didn't. Even so, you shouldn't generalize and throw all the WMD members in the same basket. Bad move, man.

Blame me instead as an individual

 

[Nathan Robinson]

My head hurts.

 

[Chronus]

Why focus on "twist"? Let me answer with the question. Why do you think torsion flex is important for lets say karts?

No, no. I noticed you focus on LONGITUDINAL twist only. You might as well consider and bring up figures pertaining to lateral flex.

Chassis flex is obviously important, no one is questioning that. The thing is, even a small amount of flex, past a certain threshold, impacts in important ways how cars are driven. And while we can distinguish between axis, it is the whole body of the car which is subject to forces and therefore distorts under certain loads and certain conditions. The flex of the whole has a number of consequences, all of which the experienced driver has to address.

If I'd replace the chassis with less rigid one, without driver knowing it, would the driver be able to tell the reason 'why' car feels different?

Well, I have been told some very recent cars can exhibit up to 16mm flex under certain conditions. You tell me, if you install chassis braces underneath and you find a sharper steering response, more feedback and better turn in, wouldn't you feel the difference?

Even less so in a sim...

Why?

Why is chassis flex (in most cases) so undesirable? Because unlike suspension, it's not as easy predictable, it'll change with the age of the chassis, has little to no dumping, it's not adjustable, it's not linear, and so on and on...

It is undesirable because it imparts penalties to steering, feedback and stability. Today's chassis are certainly quite stiff in comparison to say 20 years ago, costs with suspension design are relatively high and a waste if the chassis does not comply.

Yes, to an extent, you can model that in a sim, but how accurate?. Accurate data is hard to come by and in modern day racing cars there's not much of flex anyway.

Well, difficult or not, super-accurate or not, it is there. Even if modern race cars do exhibit even stiffer behaviour over bumps, it is good to know that that is being modelled in a sim. How accurate? If a race car flexes around 3 to 5 and the sim puts it at 6, I wouldn't call it a terrible fail. As with most things, it's a cost vs gain relationship: how much do we stand to gain or lose (cpu calculations wise) by being absolutely SPOT on in certain areas?

Guess you left out the part where he started personal attacks, let me quote that part for you:

Unfortunately for you, there is not even a remote chance of his "attacks" being similar to yours. Getting personal by fetching his performance and making comments of his activities in the forum is lowering yourself too much.

Probably would be better to just ignore him, but I didn't. Even so, you shouldn't generalize and throw all the WMD members in the same basket. Bad move, man.

Blame me instead as an individual

No, no bad move at all. Too many wmd members spend their time attacking anyone who dislikes pCARS. And when this is not enough, they go even lower by bringing to the outside things that go on within the wmd "office". Now that is a bad move, man.

 

[giveme5]

No, no. I noticed you focus on LONGITUDINAL twist only. You might as well consider and bring up figures pertaining to lateral flex.

Torsion flex is the most important, that is the one where center of rotation is longitudinal axis.
It's the one which is most commonly measured by manufacturers and others. It's the least desirable chassis flex you can have.

Not sure if we are on the same page here and what flex are we talking about.

Well, I have been told some very recent cars can exhibit up to 16mm flex under certain conditions. You tell me, if you install chassis braces underneath and you find a sharper steering response, more feedback and better turn in, wouldn't you feel the difference?

Test lab conditions, standardized in the way torsion flex is measured (force required to twist it 1 degree) This is not the amount you would measure on the track unless the forces would equal those in the lab.

As far as driver is concerned, he wouldn't know where the difference is coming from. Could be bad suspension setup, could be tire pressure, etc.

That was the whole counter argument to David's claim that he knows he feels chassis flex.

Well, difficult or not, super-accurate or not, it is there. Even if modern race cars do exhibit even stiffer behaviour over bumps, it is good to know that that is being modelled in a sim. How accurate? If a race car flexes around 3 to 5 and the sim puts it at 6, I wouldn't call it a terrible fail. As with most things, it's a cost vs gain relationship: how much do we stand to gain or lose (cpu calculations wise) by being absolutely SPOT on in certain areas?

You can hardly be spot on no matter the CPU cycles if you don't have accurate data regarding the flex.

As for where the chassis flex is modeled, could you name me few sims which model chassis flex?

Unfortunately for you, there is not even a remote chance of his "attacks" being similar to yours. Getting personal by fetching his performance and making comments of his activities in the forum is lowering yourself too much.

Please, stop right there. It is absolutely ridiculous to compare one ad hominem to another.
People are different on how they perceive certain things. You have absolutely no business in saying how unpleasant personal attack is to David or to me, nor you should play a judge in deciding which is worse.
The best you can say is both are wrong.

No, no bad move at all. Too many wmd members spend their time attacking anyone who dislikes pCARS. And when this is not enough, they go even lower by bringing to the outside things that go on within the wmd "office". Now that is a bad move, man.

Oh, guilt by association. As I've said, blame me not the all WMD members, or even better, think about how the person I was arguing with is also WMD member.

Practice what you preach...

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I use weight transfer and chassis flex interchangeably, rightly or wrongly....either way, the FFB that pcars delivers is unsatisfactory as a sim, but it could be acceptable as Shift3 if they fix the overall driving and FFB.

 

[Chronus]

Not sure if we are on the same page here and what flex are we talking about.

I see you don't actually understand chassis flex or how the forces apply.

Let us leave it as your view and my view...

Test lab conditions, standardized in the way torsion flex is measured (force required to twist it 1 degree) This is not the amount you would measure on the track unless the forces would equal those in the lab.

As I said, it is clear you don't really understand this, or you are explaining yourself badly.

As far as driver is concerned, he wouldn't know where the difference is coming from. Could be bad suspension setup, could be tire pressure, etc.

Your view, my view, David's view. To each his own.

You can hardly be spot on no matter the CPU cycles if you don't have accurate data regarding the flex.

As for where the chassis flex is modeled, could you name me few sims which model chassis flex?

Again, you misunderstand my posts. As I have explained it again and again, it seems you're not interested in this matter. No problem, moving onwards.

In regards to chassis flex and sims, if you call yourself a simracer you should know. If you don't, do a little research first. We could discuss this further but there is obviously no point.

Please, stop right there. It is absolutely ridiculous to compare one ad hominem to another.
People are different on how they perceive certain things. You have absolutely no business in saying how unpleasant personal attack is to David or to me, nor you should play a judge in deciding which is worse.

I repeat: Fetching info from wmd and presenting it here as reason for your attacks is of very poor taste. That is the only ridiculous thing here, that someone actually goes hunting for something to throw to another RD member.

Obviously, nothing is stopping you from doing it again and again, so, do continue.

Oh, guilt by association. As I've said, blame me not the all WMD members, or even better, think about how the person I was arguing with is also WMD member.

You have absolutely no business telling someone else who is to blame and who is not to.

You started with some "facts" and from then on all you have done is getting personal with people. But do go on.

 

[giveme5]

I see you don't actually understand chassis flex or how the forces apply.

Did you actually ever see how chassis flex is tested, when they actually place the chassis in a hydraulic rig, how they apply force and what is measured?

Let us leave it as your view and my view...

Physics doesn't care about views, and neither yours nor my views will change what is generally understood as chassis flex, which is torsion flex.

Please,
As I said, it is clear you don't really understand this, or you are explaining yourself badly.

You're most welcome to explain it.

Your view, my view, David's view. To each his own.

Again, it's not matter of opinions or views, but sensory limitations which we humans are bound to.

In regards to chassis flex and sims, if you call yourself a simracer you should know. If you don't, do a little research first. We could discuss this further but there is obviously no point.

I did research, yet I couldn't track down a sim (most known titles on market as of now, betas, alphas excluded), for which dev team would say; "yes, we model chassis flex".

So, would you be nice and point me to the sim which models chassis flex? I'd be most thankful.

I repeat: Fetching info from wmd and presenting it here as reason for your attacks is of very poor taste. That is the only ridiculous thing here, that someone actually goes hunting for something to throw to another RD member.

Obviously, nothing is stopping you from doing it again and again, so, do continue.

You have absolutely no business telling someone else who is to blame and who is not to.

You started with some "facts" and from then on all you have done is getting personal with people. But do go on.

I've already expressed my opinion in the matter.

 

[Tom]

Are shift lights integrated by now? I hate on-screen displays. :/

 

[museumsteve]

Who cares about flex. I want someone to tell me why almost any contact results in the doors flying open, it looks silly and has nothing to do with realism. I've had cars pass me with both doors flapping

 

[Flawl3ssVctry]

Are shift lights integrated by now? I hate on-screen displays. :/

Works on my G27

They've also published a Read-Only API to dump out game input. People have started writing some nifty Android apps/dashboards/motec displays now.

more here: http://forum.wmdportal.com/forumdisplay.php?97-pCARS-API-Discussion

 

[Tom]

Well, I might have to give it a shot then. Is the AI still crashing all the time or does it work a bit better? Didn't play for quite a while.

 

[RaceNut]

Well, I might have to give it a shot then. Is the AI still crashing all the time or does it work a bit better? Didn't play for quite a while.

The AI are better in most cases but, there are still some tracks where they have issues or may be too fast or too slow.

 

[Flawl3ssVctry]

Keep the # of AI opponents in the single digits. When you fill up the field it gets messy. Raise the Global Strength as you see fit to make it a challenge