Clutch model and gear box...

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

Hi guys, just my thoughts on this.

Something I don't like of iRacing's clutch and gear box is that with H pattern shifter cars, let´s say i'm using a G25, i'm in 3rd gear and up shifting, so when the sim makes me to miss the shift (because i didn't press the Clutch well enough) i'm still with the h pattern in the 4th gear (but the sim didn't recognise it because i pressed the clutch a little bit soft) so to get to 4th gear, i just press the clutch again and leave the gear button in 4th gear, do you guys follow me?

in real world when you miss shift, the 4th gear would never get in, so in the sim, it would be nice to have to shift again into 4th, i don't know if it's possible, since i haven't seen that "realism feature" in any sim.

you can just drive like this in the current sims: H shifter into 1st then press clutch and it goes, you press the button for 2nd gear, (the sim thinks you are in Neutral) then press the clutch and there you have 2nd gear, etc.

is not that is a benefit racing like that but it would be nice to have real "shifto miss" like the japanese guys say

 

[Justin McLeod]

For those hardcore starting procedures some people seem to want, I wonder if it's possible to code in a few options into AC.

Option 1: Simple Mode = Auto Engine Start
Option 2: AC mode = One Button Engine Start
Option 3: Mod Defined Mode = Included in the mod there is a file pertaining to what parameters need to be met for an engine to start i.e switch two fuel pumps, ignition switch, start button, all activated by keyboard or button box.
Option 4: Mode defined Interactive Cockpit Mode = Kunos include the code from NKP that allows interactive cockpit, BUT, leave all functions blank, and modders can allow any space on any cockpit in the sim to be click-able and assign functions to the space.

Option 4 is cool because hardcore racing nerds get the interactive cockpit, modders get to nerd-fest in finding what does what and showing us all, Kunos doesn't need to to do the massive amounts of research and coding for every car, and with Option #1 or #2 enabled by default AC isn't daunting to new players.

It would really be a shame and a waste to see interactive cockpit completely left behind in NKP for the next 5 years or more, it's quite innovative. With touchscreens becoming more affordable it could be a cool feature (or gimmick, if you want to call it that way). I can see a whole bunch of "Option 4 dev apps" being released all on their own for Kunos models or any mod that doesn't come with the files. The nerd in me wants to physically touch the wiper switch in the 500 abarth when it starts raining in AC... eventually... but only sometimes, perhaps when the button box becomes boring that day

 

[Jorge Alves]

Grinding sound helps you understand that you need to do something about it and in the mean time you lose time which is the most important aspect. Even if you have alien reflexes you will lose at least 1 tenth of a second until you react and press the clutch or rev match properly. So it's a win situation. You hand is in the correct place, you've lost time, you've reacted and didn't need to do something with your hand. Immersion remains.

Also helps us with the damage system that will be present in the final v1 version... you're gonna love it. Simple elegant and effective.

Since everything else is working fine i have been thinking in a way to improve this gearbox/clutch issue and i just realised that in TP you can unshift to Neutral without using the clutch ... and that is not realistic either...

Shouldnt the grinding sound and damage be also applyed in this situation? Its just another suggestion for a small detail in case you have the time to work on it

 

[Ian Strom]

Jorge, my car is no lotus, but depending on the drivetrain load I can pop it out of gear without any grinding and without using clutch. But I suspect at that point you still hit the wall of not being able to feel the shifter staying stiff in gear vs loose and able to pop out.

 

[Jorge Alves]

Ian, nothing will solve that problem until someone build a shifter with FFB ... but if you are doing it for shifting you can also do it for unshifting (the principle is the same i guess) ... and i think it will be very easy to implement...

I never drove a Lotus or nothing close to that but i drove many normal street cars in the last 20 years and everytime i tryed to unshift without pressing the clutch properly the grinding was there

anyway ... just trying to help making things more reaslistic but if if people think its not i will not worry anymore

 

[Antonio Crinò]

Since everything else is working fine i have been thinking in a way to improve this gearbox/clutch issue and i just realised that in TP you can unshift to Neutral without using the clutch ... and that is not realistic either...

Shouldnt the grinding sound and damage be also applyed in this situation? Its just another suggestion for a small detail in case you have the time to work on it

I can do that in my daily cars without any sort of problems. Push on the gear stick, lift/blip the throttle to unload the transmission, then the gear go to neutral without any grinding, just like you're using the clutch.

On AC you don't need to unload the transmission, but I think it's just a game design decision, otherwise also on AC there would be the "preload" issue like on iR.

 

[Jorge Alves]

OK ... im allways learning ... thanks for explanations

 

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

i was thinking again about this, and what i see now is that when you try to shift as fast as you can, as you would in a race, taking in consideration mostly road cars and some racing cars with H pattern shifter, if you miss a shift (shifting up is the most common), you go into 3rd, without pressing full clutch (that's a reason of miss shifting, the other is that you release the clutch before you enter the gear, because you're not thinking, just doing it as fast as possible) with this method (as in iRacing aswell) the shifter (button) stays in 3rd but the sim realizes and understands that you're not ready so you see the N, then what do you do? quick kick the clutch and the gear goes in, almost no time lost, because you know the trick.. and it's not realistic. you should loose time, because you would need to re engage the 3rd gear, put the shifter back to N positiion and again into 3rd but with the clutch again.
you need to pay with time for that, you can even loose positions in track, if you don't need to do the gear upshift again, just barely touch the clutch (no need to be alien for that) it's not realistic and you don't loose time.

apart from that i find the gear box very nice and i barely miss shift in AC.

 

[Aristotelis]

Nope, when doing what you describe, you will lose even with alien reflexes at least 150ms. Which is a lot. Typically you will lose 200-250ms.

What happens is you shift, as fast as possible, you do it wrong, you hear the noise, you react to the noise and press the clutch. That is the time you needed to shift, plus, the time to react which I repeat normally is over 200ms 0.2secs

aaand you damage the gearbox little by little.

Wanna see how it works? Easy, make a ghost car, and follow it. If you misshift at the rear straightline, watch it going away from you for the rest of the straight. It will be very obvious on online racing.

 

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

ok, i will do the test, thanks for the reply, though i'm just shifting doing the right procedure, i'm not shifting in that way on purpose, i'm driving normal. i was just pointing that, that it's possible but of course, it's not a way to make faster gear shifts or some kind of cheat in any ways.
we would need to wait until the damage is enable.
thanks again for your comments, it really means a lot.

 

[Ian Strom]

On the topic of shifting clutchless, can we have transmissions with dog-rings in AC?

Related: (left foot braking and clutchless shifting porn)

 

[Marcel Pfister]

you should loose time, because you would need to re engage the 3rd gear, put the shifter back to N positiion and again into 3rd but with the clutch again.

Thats how it is in GranTurismo 5 and it´s very anoying to do the shift again, most i miss a shift i have to shift 2-3times again untill GT5 is satisfied with my shift. In the way it is in AC i´ts the best compromise i think. You lose a bit time but it´t is not to much.

We have to wait for an art of forcefeedback shifters on the market. If you don`t put the clutch you can´t shift.

 

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

yeah that happened to me too in GT5, but that's because (i guess) you'd need to push 100% the clutch in gt5. and you loose like 2 seconds because gt5 didn't like the way to shift , that's a bad model

 

[Masternick13]

yeah that happened to me too in GT5, but that's because (i guess) you'd need to push 100% the clutch in gt5. and you loose like 2 seconds because gt5 didn't like the way to shift , that's a bad model

In GT5 if tried to shift into gear with any amount of throttle it wouldn't let you, you could have the clutch pressed down 100% and have 5% throttle and it wouldn't let you shift, It was the most annoying thing ever lol

 

[Marcel Pfister]

In GT5 if tried to shift into gear with any amount of throttle it wouldn't let you, you could have the clutch pressed down 100% and have 5% throttle and it wouldn't let you shift, It was the most annoying thing ever lol

Then it couldn´t be possible to heal and toe, but it is?!

 

[Masternick13]

Then it couldn´t be possible to heal and toe, but it is?!

yes you can but you have to already have it in gear before you push the throttle, if you are in neutral and try to put it into gear with any amount of throttle it wouldn't let you.

 

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

I don't see an option for choosing/assigning diffrente "button" to paddle and sequential shifter, as in the G25 you could use the paddle shifter for a car with paddle shifter and the sequential shifter (which are different buttons) for let say, formula abarth, or other cars with that kind of shifter. would you plan to implement that? i really hope so, so far is just like nkpro.. or at maybe let us choose more than one button for gearshift up and down, so we can choose button 5 and 10 (on G25) for upshift and 6 and 9 for downshift (or so, i'm sure you get the point)