Clutch model and gear box...

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

Hi guys, just my thoughts on this.

Something I don't like of iRacing's clutch and gear box is that with H pattern shifter cars, let´s say i'm using a G25, i'm in 3rd gear and up shifting, so when the sim makes me to miss the shift (because i didn't press the Clutch well enough) i'm still with the h pattern in the 4th gear (but the sim didn't recognise it because i pressed the clutch a little bit soft) so to get to 4th gear, i just press the clutch again and leave the gear button in 4th gear, do you guys follow me?

in real world when you miss shift, the 4th gear would never get in, so in the sim, it would be nice to have to shift again into 4th, i don't know if it's possible, since i haven't seen that "realism feature" in any sim.

you can just drive like this in the current sims: H shifter into 1st then press clutch and it goes, you press the button for 2nd gear, (the sim thinks you are in Neutral) then press the clutch and there you have 2nd gear, etc.

is not that is a benefit racing like that but it would be nice to have real "shifto miss" like the japanese guys say

 

[jrcn50]

That said. Features like interactive cockpits are very time consuming in terms of development. So for us is a matter of making to ourselves questions like: "should we invest 2 months of doing this or should we focus on better AI and multi?

Obvious answer : "better AI and multi" !!!

 

[XN-Sigma]

Sorry for the OFF but: RD really needs to have an automatic post save option

I was writing a long post, then I hit backspace and the page went back to the previous one (damn you firefox), and the post was gone....

Now to rewrite it....ugh...... which I'll do in word from now on.

 

[XN-Sigma]

OK, I'm gonna keep this short because I simply don't have the will to rewrite that whole post again...
In short, I fully understand Kunos' position, but some people seem to not understand that there are budgets and deadlines that must be followed, or that none of this matters if the game doesn't SELL.
I can tell Kunos is taking cues from GT5's success to make AC more accessible to others, as an example, other than modding, the thing I'm actually looking forward the most is the drift mode, because this is something almost inexistent in PC sim games, a game mode made to be FUN.

Also, contrary to what some may think "accessibility" is NOT the same as "arcade", AC will be accessible in the sense that the game will have options to make it easier to enjoy for people with controllers or even keyboards. I use a controller to play racing games, I don't really have the space for a wheel here, but that doesn't mean AC will be "arcade" for me, far from it, I've played tons of racing games and I can clearly tell AC will be a very realistic one, even with a controller.

 

[Juise]

I think huge part of the accessibility to all users is the tire model that acts real enough. We all know people who hardly can drive a real car, but they still stay on the road. Same should be in sims also, when you don't push it over the limit you shouldn't have any problems staying on the track.
About drift mode, My feel is that no other sim developer has got their street tires act the way that you can actually drift the car just by having enough lock, thats why it has been almost non existent in pc sims so far (well LFS has nailed it pretty good)
There were some mods back in the day in rF1 that you could do this, one of them being Touring Car Legends (although it was supposed to have endurance slicks...)
Many people blamed it for being arcade as you could save big slides easily.. They just ignored that you were raping your tires in short online races and they would not last as long as they should in a long endurance race..

I think many sims have been forced not to make easy enough tire as it would have been unreal because of the shortcomings of the tire model. in rF1 the tire heat didn't affect the rate of wear which led to weird behavior especially in endurance mods. You could punish your tires quite a lot when running shorter races.

So to sum all this slightly alcohol affected post i'd say as long as things are modeled far enough (especially tires and their behavior in different situations, heat, wear, the two combined, etc..) the sim should be easy to drive if not pushing too hard, like nKPro is.

Also one thing i noticed is the head movement in nKPro which is made in a way that you actually didn't "see" it, but it gave you lot of information about the forces affecting the car and driver (ass feeling as we say here in Finland). This is one thing that in rFactor and rFactor2 almost everyone racing in leagues turn off to be quicker as it is done in not good way.
Please make it mandatory and at least as good and subtle it is in nKPro

end of rant..

 

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

since someone was talking about interactive cockpit (which we won´t have) I hope at least we can start the engine with a button and have engine stall if we spin and don´t press the clutch, it's ok to have the car started in the pits and in the grid, it helps a lot and you don´t have to worry. but just an option to have all automatic or manual wouldn't hurt anybody.

 

[2CV SUPER GT]

That should be a base for deserve the mention "simulation".

 

[EIF]

I hope the transmission model is much more realistic than other sims I use. rFactor is way too forgiving and actually creates bad habits in my case. Even Forza would punish you more for poor gear changes.

 

[Damien Wintz]

That should be a base for deserve the mention "simulation".

I know of a game subtitled "Motorsport simulations" which doesn't feature this and it's a shame indeed

 

[William Levesque]

I hope the transmission model is much more realistic than other sims I use. rFactor is way too forgiving and actually creates bad habits in my case. Even Forza would punish you more for poor gear changes.

Grinding Tranny.

 

[EIF]

How very dare you, I do not grind trannys!

 

[William Levesque]

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=Grinding Tranny Mod

 

[EIF]

Thanks for the link Should be great with the DRM mod

 

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

don't realy understand what you mean?? it is possible in reallife too to shift without clutch.. if you go off throttle.. it depends on the gearbox how good it works.. mostly it comes with a bit grinding noise... can be a bit tricky on some gearboxes (and then the gearbox also don't realy like what you are doing if you need to fiddel around and force it in )..


downshifting is another thing... that is realy tricky without clutch... I needed to shift up and down without clutch in reallife as my clutch has gone in my old car... shifting up was quite easy.. just get off the gas and let it "roll" in (with a bit ccchrr lol)... downshifting on the otherhand was a pain .. for the hand, for the ears, for the feel and for the patience lol... and I bet for the traffic behind me



and shifting up with jumping a few gears.. for example from 2nd to 4th.. should be possible with an h-shifter in AC.. didn't tried it yet...


ohh now I think I got what you mean... that when you misshift that it should stuck in the gear where it is but should go in neutral? .. I think that already happend to me in AC but don't realy know... but that too if I have trouble to shift in a gear in my realcar I think I also jump back to the gear before as reaction.. or?? hmm don't know.. doesn't happen often to me lol... I just try to imagine lol... hmm don't know.. I think I just would get of the clutch a bit and then stamp on it again fast.. and push the gear in.. hmm don't know.. don't have much problems in reallife with shifting (except that broken clutch (the car was 14 years old as it happend and still had it's 1st clutch and was bought 2nd hand and was driven before by an old couple... had the right to fail then lol )



but what I was doing to try in AC.. was just brutally shift up and down without clutch.. and let the grind sound appear as long till it shifted lol...but I think that only worked because mechanical damage is not activated in the TP... .. maybe that is the thing what you mean that it should go in neutral then... however with mechanical damge I think the gearbox wouldn't survive that



however... I would love to use my clutch and h-shifter propably with heal toeing and all the pedal ballet... but my desk is so low that I can't lift my legs to change the pedals lol.. so I am reallife physically stucked to paddle shifting lol

If you tried LFS (live for speed) you will understand more what i mean, you cannot just shift into 3rd (which is in reality press a button) without pressing the clutch, but i know that IRL you can change gears without pressing it in some rpm bandwithd so this is well recreated in AC, but the the fact, maybe what i'd like is: Press Clutch, then shift gear up (and accept the new gear) if you are in the rpm range that you can shift without pressing the clutch, great, gear goes in. but if not, do the grinding noise, i will do a video so it's more clear.. sometimes words are not enough.

Don't get me wrong, i love the clutch and gear shift model so far in the TP, it just misses that which i'm pointing out.

 

[Aristotelis]

Something that you need to always keep in mind is the hardware we have at our disposal.
Right now our H shifters are all simple buttons with no FF. That means that someone can select any gear they like, even though in the software simulation things happen differently.

So there is a disparity between where your real hand stays and what happens in the simulated gearbox.

How to solve this? Multiple solutions but all only in software side.
You can let the old gear in and wait until clutch is pressed or revs are correct and then shift. Not very good idea, as people are using this with macros to instantly change gears, or for example downshift in a straight without pressing anything, keep going and then when braking touch the clutch and instantly shift to the lower gear without moving hands... bad.

Another thing you can do is the gear enters but doesn't works, so you have to take the gear out again and try to shift again properly. But this is a discontinuity from what your real hand does. Because in reality the gear never enters but in your H shifter it is already in. Brain gets confused and the immersion dies.

And then we have the AC solution. Your hand moves the H shifter in position, something is wrong the gear in the software is not inserted and you stay in N. Grinding sound helps you understand that you need to do something about it and in the mean time you lose time which is the most important aspect. Even if you have alien reflexes you will lose at least 1 tenth of a second until you react and press the clutch or rev match properly. So it's a win situation. You hand is in the correct place, you've lost time, you've reacted and didn't need to do something with your hand. Immersion remains.

Also helps us with the damage system that will be present in the final v1 version... you're gonna love it. Simple elegant and effective.

People could make macros for our own system? Sure, but here's an idea, for an app developer. Create an app that gets the gearchange timing. If you see anything under say 50ms, it means that the player is using buttons and not proper H shifter and probably macros. Reject the lap

 

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

great, so i guess you understand what i mean, anyways i will try to do a vid.
thanks for your reply Aris!

 

[Teguh Waluyo]

1 click start engine is enough for me and then just race for the rest. If I were the developer, feature like that is the last thing I would do. Great AI more important rather than create each tiny detail for every car since it's so time consuming.

Here what I imagine for the entire goddamned process to create real life alike tiny detail.

- Ask the manufacturer permission and ask for photograph/video how it's work which sometimes must wait for several month. Not to mention what Aris said earlier "how secretive the car manufacturers can be, especially on their race cars".

- If it's work smoothly then company guy would ask their racing team to provide the data. Some team would welcome and give lot of advice on detail but some take opposite side. Not to mention the technical difficulty may arise. Some of team simply invite the developer but the problem is their base in London, which mean more money and time to invest. Some of team doesn't have video recorder or there's no graphic guy to edit picture to tell the developer about feature on each button. Let's change our perspective as Carlos. The team mechanic who get task to tell the developer. There's a chance that Carlos don't give a f**k about sim racing. "Why should I wasting time for this kiddo doing?". Not to mention, the more code You put in there, there's more chance bug will appear.

From business perspective, create proper control for gamepad or even keyboard+mouse user still better option than enormous button detail since it's mean more market to enter which definitely I will do after physic and AI problem resolved. 5% gamepad and Keyboard+mouse user enter to this game, I believe the revenue generated would eat easily all sim racer with racing wheel.

To be honest, for a game that just $40-$60, I am more than happy with AC give after for this several years being fooled by shitty EA with their NFS Shift series.

 

[Jorge Alves]

Another thing you can do is the gear enters but doesn't works, so you have to take the gear out again and try to shift again properly. But this is a discontinuity from what your real hand does. Because in reality the gear never enters but in your H shifter it is already in. Brain gets confused and the immersion dies.

this is what LFS does and i like it a lot... it was confusing at first but after a while brain got used to it and you just do it on instict ... i dont feel immersion dying ... but maybe is just me ... even if it will never be 100% realistic because of the hardware to me it feels more realistic then just pressing the clutch ... once again this is just what i feel but i understand your point and your decision to make it that way

I love the sound telling the gear didnt enter and its very good you will implement the damage on it

Off-topic: your suggestions on G27 FFB works perfect on me ... thanks for all your support, patiente, and communication on the foruns

 

[Teguh Waluyo]

Also, contrary to what some may think "accessibility" is NOT the same as "arcade", AC will be accessible in the sense that the game will have options to make it easier to enjoy for people with controllers or even keyboards. I use a controller to play racing games, I don't really have the space for a wheel here, but that doesn't mean AC will be "arcade" for me, far from it, I've played tons of racing games and I can clearly tell AC will be a very realistic one, even with a controller.

I agree with You since sometimes I play racing game with controller/keyboard when I get back to my parent home and quite happy with result. There's something that wheel user should understand. Gamepad/keyboard gamers mostly race offline or multi with their friends. If You think they will ruin Your online game, add feature to detect controller so on server side there's option to race with racing wheel only should be solve the problem. It's win-win solution. Racing wheel user get a great season without ruined by newbie with gamepad. Gamepad user get a proper racing with gamepad user. Even if there's sometime gamepad user rage about another stupid gamepad racer, it's the risk racing online with gamepad. On the other side, developer get more money from the bigger market and hopefully developer satisfied with sales result, so they don't even think to put stupid some security layer to detect pirated copy which sometime lead rage from legit user.

 

[Aristotelis]

this is what LFS does and i like it a lot... it was confusing at first but after a while brain got used to it and you just do it on instict ... i dont feel immersion dying ... but maybe is just me ... even if it will never be 100% realistic because of the hardware to me it feels more realistic then just pressing the clutch ... once again this is just what i feel but i understand your point and your decision to make it that way

No worries, those are just opinions, there is no "truth" to it, just design decisions.
But, I will stick to two things if you don't mind.
1. as you said "it was confusing at first but after a while brain got used..." Since the same happened to us, it was something we wanted to avoid. Did we succeed? Not necessarily, the people will judge this.

2. What happens if a hardware manufacturer decides to bring out a H shifter with FFB? I think we are already future proof

 

[Jorge Alves]

No worries, those are just opinions, there is no "truth" to it, just design decisions.
But, I will stick to two things if you don't mind.
1. as you said "it was confusing at first but after a while brain got used..." Since the same happened to us, it was something we wanted to avoid. Did we succeed? Not necessarily, the people will judge this.

Of course i dont mind its just a small detail that i liked a lot in LFS and i was hoping to see in AC ... like i said i understand your point and ... most probably the majority will agree with your decision but i allways like to tell mine

2. What happens if a hardware manufacturer decides to bring out a H shifter with FFB? I think we are already future proof

We will all buy it ... and you just release the update to fix it?? Just joking ... i can see there are a lot of points you considered to make that decision and all-in-all its probably the best thing to do ... but just the fact that you considered and thought about this questiion just shows how hard you are trying to make it as real as possible ... decisions can allways be fixed but the most important is the spirit and dedication you have on it