Clutch model and gear box...

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

Hi guys, just my thoughts on this.

Something I don't like of iRacing's clutch and gear box is that with H pattern shifter cars, let´s say i'm using a G25, i'm in 3rd gear and up shifting, so when the sim makes me to miss the shift (because i didn't press the Clutch well enough) i'm still with the h pattern in the 4th gear (but the sim didn't recognise it because i pressed the clutch a little bit soft) so to get to 4th gear, i just press the clutch again and leave the gear button in 4th gear, do you guys follow me?

in real world when you miss shift, the 4th gear would never get in, so in the sim, it would be nice to have to shift again into 4th, i don't know if it's possible, since i haven't seen that "realism feature" in any sim.

you can just drive like this in the current sims: H shifter into 1st then press clutch and it goes, you press the button for 2nd gear, (the sim thinks you are in Neutral) then press the clutch and there you have 2nd gear, etc.

is not that is a benefit racing like that but it would be nice to have real "shifto miss" like the japanese guys say

 

[William Levesque]

Basically as in rFactor... Pissed me off that there was an auto-clutch when at a halt in iRacing.

Also, I hope the pedal inputs we'll feel less like an ON/OFF switch than in Netkar Pro... I don't know if something is wrong in my settings, but they feel like a switch.... Makes using the clutch smoothly quite challenging, see impossible.... Especially in the Vintage....

 

[Jorge Alves]

Jorge I think you didn't read carefully my post, or I didn't explain well enough myself
realism is one thing, hardcore mode like button pressing etc is another as magicfr said

Of course i read it carefull ... i allways do ... i just thought realistic and hardcore were the same cause i will never call it hardcore if its not realistic ... but i still desagree with you ... you cant tell hardcore is not popular because nKP didnt got popular ... nKP is by far my favourite sim but there are many other reasons and problems in nKP that didnt make it popular in simracing community ... if you make things work realistic and gives us the chance to costumize realism and hardcore with a options menu you will please everyone (arcaders, realistic racers and hardcore racers)

Please give us the chance to drive it realistic and hardcore (with options menu) cause if you dont i dont think anyother developer will ... you are my only hopes to have real simulator in my PC ... i read somewhere you wrote AC will be "arcade" ... dont know if that was just a joke but it was like a knife in my "racing simulator heart" ... and please dont take my words as negative ... im just a "as real as possible" dreamer that see in Kunos the only chance to make it true.

 

[Bart Manski]

Complicated starting sequences are hardcore and while this is a nice addition, IMO it's not needed even in a sim. One button to start the engine is enough.
But realistic clutch/gearbox... I don't hink it's hardcore... it's something that makes driving more enjoyable once you master it and adds "positive" depth to the game.

 

[Jorge Alves]

Complicated starting sequences are hardcore and while this is a nice addition, IMO it's not needed even in a sim. One button to start the engine is enough.

Not needed in a sim? what is a sim? isnt something that simulates real life? ... if a real car needs a lot of buttons to start engine shouldnt a sim do the same? You may say they are not needed to enjoy a good racing game and i agree with you on that ... i will enjoy it with or without it ... but a simulator needs everything that simulates real life ... of course some things are impossible to implement but if they are possible then they should be there if you want to call it a simulator

This is getting off-topic and im sory for that but i just cant avoid to say it ... the word "sim" is just getting banal and as been used in simracing communities to describe a game that is better then arcade ... a simulator is much more then that

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Please give us the chance to drive it realistic and hardcore (with options menu) cause if you dont i dont think anyother developer will ... you are my only hopes to have real simulator in my PC ... i read somewhere you wrote AC will be "arcade" ... dont know if that was just a joke but it was like a knife in my "racing simulator heart" ... and please dont take my words as negative ... im just a "as real as possible" dreamer that see in Kunos the only chance to make it true.

Remember modders can do this. I´m sure within 3 months of the released game, someone has created a hardcore package for those who want that.

 

[2CV SUPER GT]

Thanks Aris to take a break for reply there... BUT (you knew there was a but didn't you?)

I am still waiting my tech demo



My thought was about interactive cockpit rather than hardcore way to break the car while trying to start engine, even I like this idea (maybe we're not so different ).

So an optionnal way always activate for interactive cockpit as we can also use keyboard's key at the same time, both free, is not so hardcore in my opinion.

Personally I think some functions usually around the steering wheel as turnlights should be rather to be mapped on the hardware, but each player should be free to choose himself wich way he want.

Interactive cockpit is required when lot of cockpit functions come to work, cause 20 functions mapped on the keyboard is a little bit too much to find them instinctively. Interractive cockpit is a good alternative way to use a function the day you don't remember where is the key and the race don't let you the time to search. then you'll start to find it nice and natural, then, you'll use more and more.



About hardcore mode, the fail was not the hardcore mode but how kunos gave that to their customers.

Give access to monster racecar without any tutorial, without ask for minimal knowledge is not very realistic way, but NKPro is the past now. Understand the fail is the better thing to do.

As I said, some features are not used by everyone, as cockpit view, manual gearbox or steering wheel compatibility and noone care cause customers can choose.

Race game have to teach how to use monster machine, that's what I am waiting from race game, a real experience beyond what GT and Forza does. 1000 cars is nosense if every cars are only clones in use and PC simaracers do not have to laugh there cause sims are no so much better than GT, especially when the GT's clutch/gearbox is very well done as it's asked here,

I am looking for hardcore stuffs, but I agree with the fact that game need to be arcade (meaning easy drive mode) aswell to be a hardcore simulation. Everyone should deserve to try a racing game, whatever the talent.
Most bigger is the comunity, most large is the modding potential. Lot of the programer and modeler talent we need are just casual player or weak driver or both.

 

[Aristotelis]

First of all, we don't know how to do arcades... honestly, no way. So whatever you have heard who knows where, here it is from me, take it as official. We do not know how to do an arcade and we don't care either. Our core business is simracing and our strong point is physics. Would be stupid to do something arcadish. You might like or not like our driving model, it's not important. What is important is that what you will drive is our personal knowledge and view on what makes a driving simulator realistic and that's what AC is mainly.

That said. Features like interactive cockpits are very time consuming in terms of development. So for us is a matter of making to ourselves questions like: "should we invest 2 months of doing this or should we focus on better AI and multi? If we do implement this feature how many people will they use it and how many will they ask for their money back because we didn't had the time to implement a help tutorial? and if we implement the help tutorial in game how much time development wise will it need? Do we even have the data available to make this feature for each car featured (you'd be amazed how secretive the car manufacturers can be, especially on their race cars). Can we make everybody happy? Why NFSS sold millions and iR, rF, LFS, nKP etc all together can't sell a fraction of that? Do we have the money to continue development without releasing the sim, just for these features? Do we get more money from sales if we add another car or if we add that feature? (sad but true, we need to eat and feed our families too). What makes the world go round?

Questions questions questions and I can assure you that this is just a very very small taste of the decisions one must take. Make those questions to yourselves. You don't have to agree with me, far from it... heck I don't agree with myself often. But those questions should raise some doubts I think and maybe give you an insight of how different the professional reality is at times, in comparison to the consumer personal wish list. You might also get answers as to why nobody is trying to do it yet...

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

I just want a clutch and transmission model that is realistic enough to teach somebody to drive stick with. It's probably not even possible but I'm confident that AC will be closer to reality than the other sims in development.

 

[Dinca Andrei]

I think that all the fuss we,as community,made over many features we want to see in AC are just personal features that one do want to see in AC since everyone see Kunos Simulazioni the team that have the knowledge and will to transform that in to reality.
Despite that,few realy thinks on implication of such features like Aris said...time and the obvius....
We need to be realistic.What can be done and what we wish to be done.Maybe Moders will have a word in this matter and i am sure they will,but lets face it,one needs "power" to achive everything that has in mind....
Maybe we ask to much for now.....but i am sure they want what we want and when they are ready.....we will be surprised.
Graphics are a beauty,physics i ownt expect any less and the UI with the features already implemented is over the other games/SIM from this class.from what i have seen in pictures and videos.
So lets try to support KS in present and future,for them and for us.

*Generally speaking*

 

[William Levesque]

Personally, I could not ******* care less about interactive cockpits.... Ignition + Starter and off you go. Simple.

In real life it's how it is mostly, I don't care about switching on the fuel pumps or the battery, it's more of a pain in the ass in a sim as you're not actually there, making it time consuming and what not.

Give me a proper transmission/clutch behavior, awesome netcode and multi, and obviously pitstops ! We know the physics will be great, as are the sounds I suspect, so there you have it

(Realtime track degradation/rubbering and weather would be sweet too )

 

[2CV SUPER GT]

Aris, I understand what you mean.

I know that kunos's guys are working hard and and I think that most of the people here know that.
Let me say that your strong point is not only physics, modding tool is the point that make all the difference with what I could seen before on simracing. "Easy to create" as it's said into an interview is what I am waiting for. From GTL realease, I never waited for a game as I am waiting for AC!

Discussion about interactive cockpit is not a request to dev, it's just what I planned to create and I want to defend this idea, even it will not ineterest league racers but people who simply love cars. It's nice to see that Kunos already done that with NKP

So, as I already said :

I don't expect too much from Kunos, just the better physics and tools that they can does and a nice online, then we'll do the rest

Now I am waiting for release and I am not alone to wait

 

[betterstranger]

Aristotelis

That's all true - managing small studio is all about proper funds distribution.

What about steering with keyboard and joypad? Sadly, I think proper steering with them (not sh*t one like in Shift) will be key feature as great majority of casual gamers don't have any wheel. And who would like to buy a game with even the best physic in the world if it would have broken steering (for those without wheels)?

And one little, more personal question... will AC support/have predefined settings for Logitech DFP?

 

[Maciej Dolinski]

Well i would say it's hard to argue about people personal preferences about game feeling right. I remember reading one guy post about bikes game where he stated that realism meant to him controlling driver head movement. It was a bit silly for me but certainly for him this was best way of experiencing that game. I also can't argue that working switches are more realistic but at the same time they don't contribute to "driving" part of game. What it would change is immersion that some gamers can reach when playing. I can't say i don't want them because as always the more features in game the better, but taking real life into account hard fact is that time is limited and feature like that would be in my opinion just unnecessary. On the other hand properly simulated clutch and gearbox would affect every moment i'm on track. In my view ability to cock up gear change would have much bigger impact on game realism.

On a sidenote... i bought NKP only couple months ago but i readed fair bit about game difficult start ( i was quite curious why it isn't popular). Stating that game was to hardcore is just a bit silly. I'm quite sure that backing up time and releasing game without switches and manual tyre change wouldn't make that much of a difference. Also assuming that main problems were sim gamers unable to comprehend divine UI and mindblowingly smooth multiplayer experience is for me missing the point.
For me with all that positive hype around AC i'm closer to William opinion, great physics couple cars and tracks, decent multiplayer limited number of bugs and i see no way this game can go wrong. Also thing like AI are icing on the cake.

 

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

as soon as in the near future it might be possible to add some features like interactive cockpit buttons or whatever other guys/modder with more time now that you are writing a new software from scratch that's cool. if not, it's ok, in nkpro i don't mind turning on the car every time, in other sims i don't have to, but i miss it.

(in terms of interactiove cockpit at least for the basic, i don't want my car to not start because the ignition is broken down LoL:but the ignition and starter that'd be nice. blinkers and other stuff like is usefull in endurance races like the 24hs of nurburgring with multiclasses and stuff.

there are several button boxes to use for that purpose.

just let the door open! someone will do it, i guess the clutch/gear has turned into another direction but still very interesting posts

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

First of all, we don't know how to do arcades... honestly, no way. So whatever you have heard who knows where, here it is from me, take it as official. We do not know how to do an arcade and we don't care either.

Quote of the Month

 

[Damien Wintz]

Aristotelis

That's all true - managing small studio is all about proper funds distribution.

What about steering with keyboard and joypad? Sadly, I think proper steering with them (not sh*t one like in Shift) will be key feature as great majority of casual gamers don't have any wheel. And who would like to buy a game with even the best physic in the world if it would have broken steering (for those without wheels)?

Come on, we're talking about a simulator here. Who the hell races with a keyboard?
When producing a piece of software, one other important thing is to target your audience. What exactly is the point of spending time creating a good steering model with the keyboard if only .1% of the players will actually use it? Most of them probably just for giggles...
Simracing is a niche market, you can't really bring a wider audience by just supporting keyboard.

And pcars played that card, and all in all, neither of both sides (simracers and casual racers) are really satisfied.

 

[Jorge Alves]

First of all, we don't know how to do arcades... honestly, no way. So whatever you have heard who knows where, here it is from me, take it as official. We do not know how to do an arcade and we don't care either.

Thanks for making it clear... my heart is pumping normal again

You might like or not like our driving model, it's not important. What is important is that what you will drive is our personal knowledge and view on what makes a driving simulator realistic and that's what AC is mainly.

Now my heart is pumping better then ever

Features like interactive cockpits are very time consuming in terms of development. So for us is a matter of making to ourselves questions like: "should we invest 2 months of doing this or should we focus on better AI and multi?

Focus on better AI and multi of course ... modders will do the rest ... i hope ...

Just decide what you think its the best Aris ... im sure nobody wants more then yourselfs to have in AC a great sim ...
Thank you a lot for your patiente in answering all this questions, doubts, and wishes.

 

[Radek Zukowski]

I see no point in wasting time for developing such things like clickable switches/buttons in the cabin. Why? Because it's not one bit realistic. I'm yet to see a car that has a mouse inside it that is used to press buttons.
Using mouse is fake and not immersive at all because it doesn't correspond with what you are doing in a real car. Turning wheel, changing gears and so on is immersive because it's what you do also in a real car.

 

[Jorge Alves]

I see no point in wasting time for developing such things like clickable switches/buttons in the cabin. Why? Because it's not one bit realistic. I'm yet to see a car that has a mouse inside it that is used to press buttons.
Using mouse is fake and not immersive at all because it doesn't correspond with what you are doing in a real car. Turning wheel, changing gears and so on is immersive because it's what you do also in a real car.

You dont have to do it with the mouse ... in nKP i assign the switches/buttons to G27 gearbox buttons ... so yes ... its immersive

 

[Radek Zukowski]

You dont have to do it with the mouse ... in nKP i assign the switches/buttons to G27 gearbox buttons ... so yes ... its immersive

Yes, I know. And as you said it's more immersive that way than using a mouse to click on things. So no need to implement mouse operated interface, and that was my point in the first place.