Clutch model and gear box...

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

Hi guys, just my thoughts on this.

Something I don't like of iRacing's clutch and gear box is that with H pattern shifter cars, let´s say i'm using a G25, i'm in 3rd gear and up shifting, so when the sim makes me to miss the shift (because i didn't press the Clutch well enough) i'm still with the h pattern in the 4th gear (but the sim didn't recognise it because i pressed the clutch a little bit soft) so to get to 4th gear, i just press the clutch again and leave the gear button in 4th gear, do you guys follow me?

in real world when you miss shift, the 4th gear would never get in, so in the sim, it would be nice to have to shift again into 4th, i don't know if it's possible, since i haven't seen that "realism feature" in any sim.

you can just drive like this in the current sims: H shifter into 1st then press clutch and it goes, you press the button for 2nd gear, (the sim thinks you are in Neutral) then press the clutch and there you have 2nd gear, etc.

is not that is a benefit racing like that but it would be nice to have real "shifto miss" like the japanese guys say

 

[Jorge Alves]

well said ... small details like that are important in simulation

to be perfect when you miss the gear there should be that "sound" that no one likes to ear in real car ... and damage should be applyed according to mistake

 

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

yes, it should stay in N, i guess LFS does the job pretty well, but i can't remember now..

 

[2CV SUPER GT]

.I agree with that.

But I don't matter for those features from AC, cause I'll built it myself for my cars, if Kunos does not offer that. That's why creation tools are the most important thing, cause devs cannot think about everything we want, bu they can still think to let us the power to make ourself everyting we want.


Off topic :
It would be great to have FFB into the hardware as clutch, brake and gear box, with various sensitivity on pedals depending from vehicle physics settings (eg : hridraulic clutch or not and how hard is it) and also the same for H 8 gearbox where physics setting could determinate where you' re allowed to go (unusable gears locked by FFB) and wich speed is here and there depending on the car you are driving. Then an appropriate reaction when you miss a gear

 

[magicfr]

I have to agree, if gear is missed, you should have to go back to neutral to make it work.

Like you said, IIRC LFS does this pretty well.

 

[2CV SUPER GT]

TDU1 was quite good too...

 

[magicfr]

lol, thanks ^^

 

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

of course devs cannot think about everything we want, but since this sim is made from scratch some small things we may suggest perhaps they can think of them... and now maybe only take a few lines to code, thanks for replying guys

 

[Dinca Andrei]

Make it to realistic and you will have a car/driving school simulator than a race simulator.
Some features will not be used when racing,like left/right signals,horns,car ashtray,windsheeld sprinklers,car jack....and so on.But it sounds cool.

 

[baloche]

sorry for my english , i think it's a must have , because i buy a G27 for the clutch pedal , but my clutch pedal is useless , because when i don't press it , i can even change my gear .

in the option of the game you can set ,automatic or manual , ok , you can can choose between automatic clutch or not , but if i can change my gear without to have to press my clutch... it's useless.

so i want a real clutch when i miss my gear i want a scrappy noise and i want to have to shift again.

thx for the thread leonardo

 

[2CV SUPER GT]

Make it to realistic and you will have a car/driving school simulator than a race simulator.
Some features will not be used when racing,like left/right signals,horns,car ashtray,windsheeld sprinklers,car jack....and so on.But it sounds cool.

I do not really mind for race simulator cause I will not race. I am not a racer,. I just think to drive quietly with few people online and friends, looking for fun and pleasure from accurate physics and advanced interaction with the cockpit.


The thing I am looking for is just to feel the car as my own car as I use it everyday and features we use in real life rarely exist ingame.

I don't get accident in real life or very rarely, and if it happenned I don't see any damage cause my face receive an airbagshoot and I just stop driving for good while so, airbag should be a priority as damage features.

We have nice sun effects from 15 years with Virtua Rally and all the following racing game, but we still cannot use sun-visor. Devs are sadistic? That's a luck for us that they thought to make lights enable for night races!

From Gran Turismo to GTLegends, some people play awesome cars for many hours and many laps, every days, some rare cars like 330P4 or NSX from Japan GTC but I am pretty sure that if those people get a chance to drive a real one after to play it ingame, they'll need 10 minuts to find alone how to start the engine on those machines cause even the better sims are just games and build their cars as clones.

The way I see is to target the switchs with the mouse as a FPS (using the same hand than in real life), virtual hand may release the steeringwheel and finger stay close ready to push when you fly upper the switch (added with mapped key in same time for home made cockpit, free to choose wich way you'll use)
If the game run like that, you'll really learn to use this car closer from reality and this features was already made from modders for LS2011.

Yes you're right Dinca, windsheeld being dirty is usual thing in real race, sprinklers should be enable in every sims

Another one? Each morning, I am fighting against mist on my windsheeld, but racegame are the wonderfull world of pink bunny and kind windsheelds.

An extrem one? To push on heating seat switch from ingame cockpit, wich will activate a real heating under my real seat, that's what I want to call amazeballs details



How many people will play offline only, how many people will play every cars accurately, how many will use cockpit view and manual gear? Every nice features or car licences have a limited popularity.

Of course I don't expect too much from Kunos, just the better physics and tools that they can does and a nice online, then we'll do the rest

 

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

yeah! i hope Aris is watching at least..

 

[William Levesque]

Check out "Grinding Tranny" for rFactor.

You can edit the ini. file to your liking and put exactly the kind of clutch/transmission behavior you've been talking about.

You got the iRacing way (just press the clutch to ungrind the gear) and my favourite, yours. (Stick back in neutral, clutch properly back in gear.)

Depending on the car (some are easier than others for that), you can avoid using the clutch entirely by just rev-matching, a bit more difficult than in real life since you can't feel the shifter but with a bit of practice it works

 

[Aristotelis]

Aris is watching with enthusiasm. This is a great happy forum to read, thank you guys
I'm sure you understand why I'm quiet lately...

...
From Gran Turismo to GTLegends, some people play awesome cars for many hours and many laps, every days, some rare cars like 330P4 or NSX from Japan GTC but I am pretty sure that if those people get a chance to drive a real one after to play it ingame, they'll need 10 minuts to find alone how to start the engine on those machines cause even the better sims are just games and build their cars as clones.

The way I see is to target the switchs with the mouse as a FPS (using the same hand than in real life), virtual hand may release the steeringwheel and finger stay close ready to push when you fly upper the switch (added with mapped key in same time for home made cockpit, free to choose wich way you'll use)
If the game run like that, you'll really learn to use this car closer from reality and this features was already made from modders for LS2011.
[cut...]

I love what you saying and I can assure you Stefano and the rest of the team really like this kind of things... BUT (you knew there was a but didn't you?)
The interactive cockpit was/is one of the main hardcore sim features of netKar Pro. To start your engine in netKar Pro you had to move your mouse and find the little ignition switches, battery ons and engine starter buttons... In one of the car you even had to turn your steering wheel a bit to be able to press the button as it was behind the wheel. On race cars with small batteries the starter would die after a couple of starts too. Your tyres were not changed automatically not even when you quit and return to the game, until you said so in the pits... so you could do thousands of laps in the same tyres if you wanted (slippery of course), until you decided to change them manually. Even today I think it is still the only sim to offer such features...

The results.
netKar Pro was bought by the hardcore simracing people. The numbers of sales show that it wasn't bought by the mainstream gamers... Even so, you won't believe how many money returns requests and outraged emails we got because "I can't even start the car engine! I wan't my money back!" and "After the first couple of laps there was no grip on the tyres, is this a joke!!?!?! I want my money back!"

I guess the market has spoken out and loud. I'm sad and sorry for you and me that we love those little things, but the simracing market is just not enough hardcore like the flight sim scene.

Everybody wants to learn to fly and is willing to read big books to learn the necessary.
Nobody wants to learn to drive... they are all schumachers already.


P.S. Sorry guys if I'm not replying to all your other questions right now, but I always read everything with great interest. A bit of patience, help you and keep on posting

 

[magicfr]

Hardcore mode, should be an option, deactivated by default We are not all masochist

We are just talking about realist mode here

 

[William Levesque]

Beside landing the most difficult thing of flight sims is actually to understand all the controls... After that is done, you just, well, fly... It's very remote in my opinion, it doesn't require an insane amount of skill, unless you are doing stunts...

A racing sim on the other hand requires you do be skillfull 100% of the time, not only in driving but in thinking aswell (Tyres preservation and fuel strategy, when to overtake and how to do it to lose the least amount of time possible, defending, etc...)

The majority of the population does not even remotely understands how much depth is found in racing, especially at the highest level. People in sims think they are the best and when they get into proper championships online, they get trashed by the "proper drivers" who understand not only the car's physics, but racecraft aswell. The sheer amount of variables probably scares the less hardcore enthusiasts, who then finds excuses to bail out....

A funny example too of the majority can be found in F1 2012 (not a sim but still). There's been a lot of talk about the penalties given in the game for cutting the track, claiming that it's ridiculous and bugged. The issue though is that when you see these people driving, they are mostly outside the legal boundaries of the track of the FIA (no more than 2 wheels outside the white line, as opposed to the same thing but with an allowed 4 wheels on kerbing (but not on grass) found in other types of racing). The lack of knowledge of the people is in general the source of all the complaints regarding racing sims...

 

[Jorge Alves]

I guess the market has spoken out and loud. I'm sad and sorry for you and me that we love those little things, but the simracing market is just not enough hardcore like the flight sim scene.

I have to desagree with you Aris ... one of the reasons LFS was so popular some years ago was because of the hardcore simulator options they have ... like real clutch/gears and realistic physics/ffb (they are kind of outdated this days)

The problem with nKP is that we cant customize it ... we can only choose beetween full hardcore or nothing and even in full mode many things dont work like they should in a simulator. With your talent you can make arcade and real simulator in same game ... you just have to let us customize what we want.

Let us choose in a menu (option by option) what hardcore features we want to drive ... or run in a server ... let us costumize step by step from arcade to simulator instead of just making a "game" for the mainstream market. I read that you are doing that for the driving helps ... just do it for everything and give us the chance to drive in a real simulator where mechanichs and small details works like in a real car ... i dont mind to wait 1 more year if you just make it right

 

[magicfr]

Jorge, I disagree with you I think there's a mixed up between realism and hardcore usage.
Clutch/Gearbox that behave correctly => realism
Have 1 button to start car instead of 5 you have to click with mouse = simplifcation vs hardcore.
For example, If I'm a profressional driver, I don't have to change tire myself, or even start the car myself. I just drive. Even for pit stop, I don't have to calculate myslef how much fuel, the team do it for me.
But when I drive, I have to use correctly clutch/reving to shift correctlty, otherwise the gearbox crashes.

For me that's 2 different things.

 

[Aristotelis]

Jorge I think you didn't read carefully my post, or I didn't explain well enough myself
realism is one thing, hardcore mode like button pressing etc is another as magicfr said

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Aris, maybe you have answered this but will we be able to have full control over the clutch at all times?
Turning of anti-stall etc. (unless the car has it)
I´d like to push in the clutch when i spin and not have a computer to do it.