rF2 Caterham Superlight Team Championship (Cancelled)

rFactor 2 Racing Club event
well as i cant relpy to Toby`s pm because his box is full i`ll post it here instead.

"this has already been discused in great lenght & Stu has made it clear on what is and what isent allowed which Chris has already agreed to. so as far as i`m concerned this this disscusion is closed.
bump drafting has been used in the cat club races right from the start many months ago, so if you have any issues with it you could have complaned ages ago.
so if you cant beet em jon um :p"
 
No problem with that, tbh, although I'm just as likely just to shut the whole thing down and walk away myself.

I'd rather have a smaller field of people who are all on the same page and in the right mindset, than have a field full of disaffected, disgruntled or any other dis you care to mention drivers who moan all the time. I know the RDCCC has had issue with certain drivers constantly moaning for instance, and it affected the whole league dynamic.

I re-state again: if people don't like the way the league is set up, I'd rather you left than became a toxic presence.
 
No problem with that, tbh, although I'm just as likely just to shut the whole thing down and walk away myself.

I'd rather have a smaller field of people who are all on the same page and in the right mindset, than have a field full of disaffected, disgruntled or any other dis you care to mention drivers who moan all the time. I know the RDCCC has had issue with certain drivers constantly moaning for instance, and it affected the whole league dynamic.

I re-state again: if people don't like the way the league is set up, I'd rather you left than became a toxic presence.
Wow.

Let me tell you that there is a massive difference between moaning and constructive criticism that has been brought up simply because it has been felt that it would be to the detriment of the league if certain rules remain as they are.

I will, however, withdraw my initial thoughts on bump drafting categorically and immediately for the benefit of the morale and general feeling of the league. I just hope the first race goes OK with this rule still in place.
 
Wow I think we have all gone a little too far with this. Sorry Stu, I didn't think my comments would cause offence, it was supposed to be constructive for the league. I understand all the effort you put in and at the end of the day you are the rule maker, so I'll race whatever. These were just my concerns after the league but if you think its no problem, that's fine.
 
No problem with that, tbh, although I'm just as likely just to shut the whole thing down and walk away myself.

I'd rather have a smaller field of people who are all on the same page and in the right mindset, than have a field full of disaffected, disgruntled or any other dis you care to mention drivers who moan all the time. I know the RDCCC has had issue with certain drivers constantly moaning for instance, and it affected the whole league dynamic.

I re-state again: if people don't like the way the league is set up, I'd rather you left than became a toxic presence.
loool
you are funny Stu... :)
the driver in RDCCC is for sure me... and i have no any prob with that only because the WHOLE league run fine and it affect nothing... ;)
whatever, we are not here to discuss about that ;)

a smile on your face and(or) heard something else than: "shut up or leave"( you dont say it like this but it look exactly the same) will be fine and less "toxic" ;)
 
@ Toby - Sorry old horse, but you simply can't do that.

It's out there now, people know about your thoughts & objections, you are always going to be looking out for issues where bumping could be construed as the root cause, and on and on and on. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, I'm afraid.

I'm beginning to think that it might genuinely be better all round for everyone we just go back to having individual drivers and just having Club events.
 
@ Greg - I'm not saying "shut up or leave" despite how it looks to you.

What I am saying is that if you are not happy with the way things are, and have reservations about certain aspects, then it's very difficult for those reservations not to fester, get worse and become deeper seated.

I've seen it happen before, and if that's the case, then it's better for all parties if those people with reservations don't compete, rather than trying to compete while suppressing those reservations. That's why I said in post #49 "I say this without any rancour whatsoever - honestly, if it bothers you that much, and you cannot accept the rules as they are, just pull out."

I'd rather people walked away happy than soldiered on and ended up hating it through some feeling of obligation. I'm currently weighing up my own options on that front.

It may actually turn out better for everyone if I just handed the Caterham reins (League & Club) over to someone else who can give it the energy it deserves. I'd rather walk away happy than soldier on and end up resenting it, because I have loved running these Fridays, and I wouldn't want to spoil it by ending up fighting with everyone and becoming the toxic presence I so abhor.
 
@ Toby - Sorry old horse, but you simply can't do that.

It's out there now, people know about your thoughts & objections, you are always going to be looking out for issues where bumping could be construed as the root cause, and on and on and on. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, I'm afraid.

I'm beginning to think that it might genuinely be better all round for everyone we just go back to having individual drivers and just having Club events.

OK, well all the team leaders have been emailed by me regarding this and so far I have three replies, 1 stating that they would prefer not to have bump drafting, one saying that contact should not be allowed in any form, and one saying that bumpdrafting is fine.
 
Hi,
Yes Toby i'm working on that at the moment.....i'll test tonight with the skins, suits and helmets from last week and then (if it works) i'll send that over to Stu for inclusion in the League pack with the new skins that are due.
 
Stu.
Nobody is saying you are doing a bad job, that the league is being run badly, or whatever. Nobody.
We all truly respect the job you are doing and know how much effort you have put in. For that we are extremely grateful.

Please do not take this the wrong way - I am merely bringing this up because of the test race. I'll be honest, but it was the first and most extreme example of bumpdrafting and I didn't like it and it didn't feel like my first few Cat events because of it. Those are the simple facts. I brought it up not out of spite towards you and your running of the league, Stu, nor do I complain for the sake of it. Apologies if you took it that way.
 
Hi,
Yes Toby i'm working on that at the moment.....i'll test tonight with the skins, suits and helmets from last week and then (if it works) i'll send that over to Stu for inclusion in the League pack with the new skins that are due.
Cheers Paul, it wasn't a big deal but it would look good in the race for everyone to have the correct stuff, especially if they join first then nobody sees their helmet. :D Nice work.
 
i would venture to suggest that by lobbying team leaders with your interpretation of a rule you are seriously undermining the principle (and indeed the principal) of this league and therefore are not only not doing him any favours at all, but you're also probably compromising the discussion you will have with your team leader with regard to incidents that take place during races. As has already been said, the toothpaste does not go back into the tube and i would personally suggest that you cease and desist this background lobbying immediately (especially given that your returned votes so far are by no means conclusive on this particular issue).

Gents, i've run leagues before, both contact and non-contact racing. The non-contact racing is a nightmare to administer as you're unable to review events as they happen, but instead have to refer to replays afterwards to try and correlate differing opinions on any incident. This usually leads to hours and hours of trawling through replays, winding 50/50 incidents back and forward and then suffering days of ridiculous conversations with aggrieved parties.......the system that is in place for RDCat is a system that i wish i'd thought of tbh, whereby representatives of parties involved in incidents can have a full, logical and transparent discussion on the subject and then reach a mutually agreeable decision.
With regard to bump-drafting specifically, there are valid arguments from both sides of the debate but the simple fact of the matter is that unless someone is prepared to sit every week and not race, but rather to monitor gaps between cars and make decisions 'on the fly' as to whether an unfair advantage has been gained (and trust me that is very subjective within the overall context of a race). There is a clear distinction that has already been mentioned between drafting and jostling cars out of the way to latch on to another car....the first is legal, the second is not and will be the subject of a TL discussion no doubt.

Finally, on a more general note, seeing as we're all in a giving mood i'd like to offer a couple of suggestions of my own.

1: NO talking in the race server chat during meetings.....we all have team TS rooms and/or can pm in the server chat and there should be no need for anyone except Stu to pipe up and consequently distract the other drivers. Once people get attuned to the idea that the ONLY time the chatbox should pop up is for pertinent info then it gets a lot easier for everyone.....i race in leagues where anyone talking in chat are warned for their first offence and banned of their second and trust me when i say the 'wtf???'s and 'omg!!'s and other stroppy comments soon die out.

2: I would personally suggest that any incident comments posted on race nights will be ignored. People need to sleep on it, go back to their replay the next day and see the incident again before they start pointing fingers.

3: Disrepute......this would include negative (as opposed to constructive....none of which i've seen in here tonight) commenting, undermining the admin and rules of the league and generally being a decent chap....this league has grown from a Gentleman's league, but right about now that seems an awful long time ago.


Finally, can i refer those of you disgruntled types to the main league thread.....of the tracks listed, none has a main straight like Mexico did (in terms of length at least) and i would suggest that some of you really need to keep your counsel and try the racing and the rule set that is in place rather than complaining about a rule that will probably offer you as much advantage as it would for anyone else. The discussion on here smacks of 'we can't beat them so we'll complain' and the fact that the argument has been between 3 of the fastest guys in the league frankly baffles me.

Come on lads, show a little class and a little patience and support your local admin!!
 
Paul, my original point is not because I couldn't do it myself with my team mates and gain an advantage, or bumpdraft my own way to the front. I just don't feel it's in the spirit of not only RD but I just haven't come accross it in any other league. For example, WTM, there was none there at all and the racing was brilliant.

As you say though it's a gentlemen's league, where respect for others is high and contact has always been kept at a minimum. I promise you this; if it was banned then people would respect that, and anybody who didn't would be easy to catch. Really easy. To get a benefit you would have to persistently do it and therefore it would be an obvious decision to make.

If bumpdrafting is allowed then that's OK, of course, it's not my league. I am surprised with the reaction I've got here, I really really wasn't intending to sound like a moaning idiot. It was only because I thought it would be better for the league.
 
Toby,
I appreciate your point that you do not feel that bumpdrafting is not within the spirit of RD, but i would also suggest that lobbying for a rule change is also not within the spirit of RD. The argument (mentioned earlier) that 'it does not happen in real racing' is, for me, as weak as the 'impossible to police' statement was to you.....all leagues have to, in the end, draw a line between sim and enjoyment and it's never an easy line to draw. We, as members in a league, have to abide by the rules of racing and, if necessary, we should discuss issues raised as an ongoing process, NOT attempt to get a rule changed as a result of a circumstance seen in one or two meetings.
To be frank, i'm not surprised by the reaction you got, as you heard (and participated in) the same debate in TS that i did last week and i would honestly suggest that what would be better for the league would be that we all accept the rules and frameworks that are in place and then try actually racing, whether alone or with a team-mate or two or within a pack for the whole lap and the whole time rather than focussing on one straight on a few of the tracks scheduled.

If you would indulge me a moment, i'd like to offer a small speculative race report from your desired no-bumpdrafting-based series scenario:

Davis wins at Kyalami

Toby Davis was awarded the win for round 1 of the RDCat series at Kyalami that was held 4 days ago after the race review saw Gary Lennon, Gregory DeGreef and Michael Herrmann docked places from their original podium finishes due to bump-drafting (although this result is still provisional as appeals are in place on behalf of the aforementioned three drivers who contend that their straight-contact was not intentional). Chris Butcher was belatedly awarded second place behind Davis, although their running in tandem is part of the BVM appeal plea, so the final result is still in doubt. Nigel Atkins was a distant third (originally sixth) and was quoted as saying 'i'm bloody glad i didn't stick with my team-mates.....i felt it better to bag some banker points for the team than try to stay with them and risk us all losing out in the courtroom'. Atkins was followed home by Ross Mcgregor and Stuart Thomson who may yet be awarded the second and third positions if BVM's counter-appeal against Tard Helmet is upheld.



Do you fancy sorting all that out?
 
I guess the hope is that people would have some common sense and not get carried away trying to win the race ;)

Everyone needs to remember there's no multi-million pound prize at the end of the league, and if you're lucky, your other half might pour you a drink to celebrate.

It's not the bump drafting that needs to be stopped, it's the win-at-all-cost attitude, as that causes many more problems across the whole of RD
 
I, for one, have never been infected by this 'win-at-all-costs' attitude, mainly because I'm 50 years old and not a very fast driver compared to the experts.

I normally aim just to finish the race - it's surprising how many times I finish in the top 10, just because I didn't do a header into a barrier at half distance while fighting for a podium :D
 

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