Alright when was that again.....?
- Thread starter Bram Hengeveld
- Start date
I’m sorry. Now I intend the meaning of GOAT. Uhm, probably not. But the rapper singer is anyway in the future of Lewis.
I don't like Lewis at all. I was a fan of Button his team mate (as he is from my town) Then Nico Rosberg. I forgave Lewis fro raming into JB at Montreal, it rained so JB got car fixed in pits and intermediate tires, so who cares. But i never liked Lewis and moaning about tires all the time, a true driver would adapt and work around it and not be complaining on the radio, Other teams will see this as a weakness. Hes marketed himself into McLaren and AMG Mercedes (Basicaly mostly ex McLaren personel in a car with the same power unit) Say what you like the greatest was Senna even though he won the least races. Then Shumacher took over. Lewis would nopt stand a chance in a sprint race with these two legends. They come from a time when the driver did more Senna had to change gear manually. Schuamcher did not always have the best the car but he could work around it with skill and racecraft. And Neither had party mode or DAS that is helping Lewis by giving him a technical advantage with tools that other teams wont develop, as they know it will be banned because they know it is unsporting to copy. When the New airo package comes in in 2022 then we will see Lwis on a even playing field. If he continues to drive next year.
PS what is a GOAT i know it is a animal with a beard usualy named Billy but it is used in a different context here.
Greatest Of All Time
I know about Moses mate, fantastic athlete, no doubt about that.
But Jordan was the only one who was bigger than the sport itself.
Remember Senna humiliating Prost at the 1988 Monaco?
Jordan did that on a daily basis during his entire career.
But I tend to lean towards athletes who are decent human beings in private.
According to people surrounding him, Jordan was a prick.
Ayrton Senna was a prick behind the wheel, thought he had the God given right to win.
But he was a wonderful human being offstage.
Shy and humble, with a smile that could bring tears to your eyes.
If anyone is interested, there's a beautiful documentary on him:
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Not again.
poll seems clear, drop it
maybe a poll about "loud pipes saves lives" also delivers nice ranting ..
poll seems clear, drop it
maybe a poll about "loud pipes saves lives" also delivers nice ranting ..
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Agree that he is but the goat of goats - very disputable given the level of competition he has - there wasn't much competition either during the best of the Schumacher era compared to the 4-way battle in the early part of the Prost-Senna rivalry
Here's your guide to the F1 goats - anybody who wants to argue who are the greatest - whoever pick these, let's assume you're that age
Do not expect this to be accurate except the bottom 3
75+ : Fangio/Moss
60-75: Clark/Hill
55-70: Stewart
50-65 - Lauda
35-50 - Senna/Prost
25-40: Schumacher
Under 30: Hamilton
Here's your guide to the F1 goats - anybody who wants to argue who are the greatest - whoever pick these, let's assume you're that age
Do not expect this to be accurate except the bottom 3
75+ : Fangio/Moss
60-75: Clark/Hill
55-70: Stewart
50-65 - Lauda
35-50 - Senna/Prost
25-40: Schumacher
Under 30: Hamilton
Reading these comments do people actually watch Formula 1?
In 2007 Kimi won 6 races, Lewis won 4 and lost the championship by 1 pt.
In 2008 Massa won 6 races, Lewis won 5 and won the championship by 1 pt.
He won races for McLaren when Red Bull were dominating and blowing away the field.
He moved to Mercedes in 2013 when Red Bull were still the dominant team and Mercedes were far from being the team they are today and still won races,
2016 he won 2 of the first eight races and lost the championship by 5 pts.
2017 he won only 4 of the first 11 races but still took the championship.
2018 he won only 3 of the first 10 races and still took the championship.
Where does this "always in the best car" "never won with an inferior car" come from?
But hey, it is the internet after all, never let the facts get in the way of a good story!!
2020 was without doubt a dominating performance by Hamilton, if you cancel all of Bottas points, Mercedes would still lift the championship.
I get that people don't like the guy, but wow!! The hate is real.
In 2007 Kimi won 6 races, Lewis won 4 and lost the championship by 1 pt.
In 2008 Massa won 6 races, Lewis won 5 and won the championship by 1 pt.
He won races for McLaren when Red Bull were dominating and blowing away the field.
He moved to Mercedes in 2013 when Red Bull were still the dominant team and Mercedes were far from being the team they are today and still won races,
2016 he won 2 of the first eight races and lost the championship by 5 pts.
2017 he won only 4 of the first 11 races but still took the championship.
2018 he won only 3 of the first 10 races and still took the championship.
Where does this "always in the best car" "never won with an inferior car" come from?
But hey, it is the internet after all, never let the facts get in the way of a good story!!
2020 was without doubt a dominating performance by Hamilton, if you cancel all of Bottas points, Mercedes would still lift the championship.
I get that people don't like the guy, but wow!! The hate is real.
Winning races in a car that was (arguably) second best or even 3rd or 4th best isn't something that no one's ever done before...
Lewis Hamilton sure is a great driver, among the best F1 has ever seen, but the best?
No.
Not by a long shot.
He has always been in superior cars. Mercedes pretty much wipes the floor with the competition at this point and have done so for years. To be the best, you have to be competitive in mediocre cars, maybe even in bad ones. When Vettel won four titles in a row in a car which was clearly superior, Hamilton often was nowhere to be seen. A true GOAT, like Jim Clark, Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost, Stirling Moss, Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda, or Juan Manuel Fangio, would still have been a strong contender for the title.
I just don't see that in Hamilton.
True, his mistakes are few and far between, he shows consistent pace, he can be bloody quick when need arises, he knows how to get the best out of the material he's given - he is a great driver, no doubt about that.
But then a young guy named George Russell takes over his car and almost does the same thing Hamilton does all the time - he should have won the race, if not for the incompetence of his team during the pit stops.
It's the car, not the driver. (Don't get me wrong, that's not a snide against Russell. He shows his qualities in a car which is very inferior on a regular basis, and I really hope we get to see him in better cars in the near future. But the fact remains that this guy, who had never even won a championship point at that stage, did almost win the race. Kudos to him, definitely, but kudos to Mercedes for giving him a car that allowed him to achieve this feat.)
If Hamilton could achieve the same thing in the insult to F1 that Ferrari puts on the tracks today, we'd be talking.
You may have noticed that I didn't include Schumacher in my list of great drivers. That's because I don't consider him even a great driver.
He was good, great even during his heyday, but when he won his titles, he always had superior cars at his disposal, much like Hamilton has nowadays. On top of that, I never liked him, despite the fact that he's just as German as I am. And I have reasons for that attitude.
One of the great things about Hamilton is that he's a good ambassador for the sport, much like all the other drivers I mentioned above were. They truly represent the sport well, present themselves with the poise and gravitas of true champions. (The knighthood bestowed upon Hamilton is very well deserved, as far as I'm concerned.)
Schumacher never did that, to the contrary.
He won the 1994 championship in the most controversial fashion and never even acknowledged what everybody knew - he had actively steered into Damon Hill's car. Maybe it was a reflex. I don't think he wanted to take Hill out, but he sure as hell didn't want him to overtake.
Just like any good racer would do.
Just a few years earlier (in 1990, to be precise), Ayrton Senna did the exact same thing - he steered into Alain Prost and took him and himself out of the Suzuka GP, thus winning the championship. And he unashamedly admitted to the fact that he had done it. In his own words: "If you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver."
It's perfectly understandable actually. And he acknowledged the fact and admitted to his actions. That's why Senna was beloved and his death bemoaned.
Schumacher never had the same qualities. Even worse, in 1997, he, again, tried to take out his opponent to become World Champion (it was Jacques Villeneuve this time), but this backfired badly - he spun out, Villeneuve came in third in the race and won the championship, and Schumacher was disqualified from the entire season, and it was a fitting punishment in my humble opinion.
No, Schumacher isn't the GOAT, nor is Hamilton.
If I had to make a decision, it would undoubtedly be Ayrton Senna.
He was very competitive in mediocre cars and absolutely dominant in great ones. He had the drive, the ambition, the hunger, to be the absolute best at what he did at all times. At the same time, he was a very humble man who donated for charity, admired and beloved even by most of his peers (with a few obvious exceptions, of course). Even Schumacher himself has mentioned that he thinks Senna has been the best of all times.
Probably the only thing on which I agree with Schumacher.
No.
Not by a long shot.
He has always been in superior cars. Mercedes pretty much wipes the floor with the competition at this point and have done so for years. To be the best, you have to be competitive in mediocre cars, maybe even in bad ones. When Vettel won four titles in a row in a car which was clearly superior, Hamilton often was nowhere to be seen. A true GOAT, like Jim Clark, Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost, Stirling Moss, Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda, or Juan Manuel Fangio, would still have been a strong contender for the title.
I just don't see that in Hamilton.
True, his mistakes are few and far between, he shows consistent pace, he can be bloody quick when need arises, he knows how to get the best out of the material he's given - he is a great driver, no doubt about that.
But then a young guy named George Russell takes over his car and almost does the same thing Hamilton does all the time - he should have won the race, if not for the incompetence of his team during the pit stops.
It's the car, not the driver. (Don't get me wrong, that's not a snide against Russell. He shows his qualities in a car which is very inferior on a regular basis, and I really hope we get to see him in better cars in the near future. But the fact remains that this guy, who had never even won a championship point at that stage, did almost win the race. Kudos to him, definitely, but kudos to Mercedes for giving him a car that allowed him to achieve this feat.)
If Hamilton could achieve the same thing in the insult to F1 that Ferrari puts on the tracks today, we'd be talking.
You may have noticed that I didn't include Schumacher in my list of great drivers. That's because I don't consider him even a great driver.
He was good, great even during his heyday, but when he won his titles, he always had superior cars at his disposal, much like Hamilton has nowadays. On top of that, I never liked him, despite the fact that he's just as German as I am. And I have reasons for that attitude.
One of the great things about Hamilton is that he's a good ambassador for the sport, much like all the other drivers I mentioned above were. They truly represent the sport well, present themselves with the poise and gravitas of true champions. (The knighthood bestowed upon Hamilton is very well deserved, as far as I'm concerned.)
Schumacher never did that, to the contrary.
He won the 1994 championship in the most controversial fashion and never even acknowledged what everybody knew - he had actively steered into Damon Hill's car. Maybe it was a reflex. I don't think he wanted to take Hill out, but he sure as hell didn't want him to overtake.
Just like any good racer would do.
Just a few years earlier (in 1990, to be precise), Ayrton Senna did the exact same thing - he steered into Alain Prost and took him and himself out of the Suzuka GP, thus winning the championship. And he unashamedly admitted to the fact that he had done it. In his own words: "If you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver."
It's perfectly understandable actually. And he acknowledged the fact and admitted to his actions. That's why Senna was beloved and his death bemoaned.
Schumacher never had the same qualities. Even worse, in 1997, he, again, tried to take out his opponent to become World Champion (it was Jacques Villeneuve this time), but this backfired badly - he spun out, Villeneuve came in third in the race and won the championship, and Schumacher was disqualified from the entire season, and it was a fitting punishment in my humble opinion.
No, Schumacher isn't the GOAT, nor is Hamilton.
If I had to make a decision, it would undoubtedly be Ayrton Senna.
He was very competitive in mediocre cars and absolutely dominant in great ones. He had the drive, the ambition, the hunger, to be the absolute best at what he did at all times. At the same time, he was a very humble man who donated for charity, admired and beloved even by most of his peers (with a few obvious exceptions, of course). Even Schumacher himself has mentioned that he thinks Senna has been the best of all times.
Probably the only thing on which I agree with Schumacher.
Sure, but nobody else than Hamilton has got poles and wins even in an inferior car every season. Only Schumacher and Senna come close.
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The best F1 driver ever is Paster Maldonardo.
or, probably before most here started watching F1 -- Silverstone 2008.
Good in the rain.
or, probably before most here started watching F1 -- Silverstone 2008.
Good in the rain.
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I think this question is impossible to answer, as the sport has changed so much over the decades. I will always pick Schumacher as the greatest, no matter how many championships Hamilton takes.
Schumacher would be 8 if not for his broken leg at Silverstone, Hamilton lost to Rosberg and Raikkonen, in years he should have easily won.
My favourite drivers is a whole different question.
Schumacher would be 8 if not for his broken leg at Silverstone, Hamilton lost to Rosberg and Raikkonen, in years he should have easily won.
My favourite drivers is a whole different question.
Senna, Piquet, Lauda, Andretti, Prost and Mansell still are the greatest drivers: you can never get bored watching them racing. Their style was exciting already. Hamilton is just lucky like Schumacher: fast drivers with overwhelmingly fast cars whom happen to be in the competition without someone in a equivalent winning fast car to challenge them.
Just see how Hakkinen, Hill and Villeneuve effectively thwarted Schumacher plans. And how Alonso actually stopped the winning streak. Or how easily Vettel prevented Hamilton from being successful in the early 2010s. Senna ran with a disgraceful McLaren in 1993, but that didn't stopped him challenging Prost all the way to the end of the season. Hamilton would've been obliterated in the same situation.
Let alone being a champion in the late 70's and through the 80's, with so many inhumanly skilled pilots dominating the grid.
Just see how Hakkinen, Hill and Villeneuve effectively thwarted Schumacher plans. And how Alonso actually stopped the winning streak. Or how easily Vettel prevented Hamilton from being successful in the early 2010s. Senna ran with a disgraceful McLaren in 1993, but that didn't stopped him challenging Prost all the way to the end of the season. Hamilton would've been obliterated in the same situation.
Let alone being a champion in the late 70's and through the 80's, with so many inhumanly skilled pilots dominating the grid.
I disagree. Lance Stroll is on a league of his own. He don't even bother with the competition. He just stroll around and have fun.
Statistically, he's getting to the point where I think he's #1 in just about any category anyone would care about. If that's enough to make him GOAT in your book, then go for it...but, personally, I don't think it's that simple. F1 has changed a lot over the years. Apples to apples comparisons across eras are impossible, which is why I don't think I'll ever be able to name a GOAT, personally. I can give you a short list of GOAT candidates - and, make no mistake, Lewis is on that list - but definitively choosing one above all the others? No way.
I think you can go even a step further and say that, within the wider realm of "sport", there are things that are unique to F1 that make doing comparative evaluations extremely difficult.
With any kind of public debate like this, I think there is a lot of sentimentality that comes into play, as well. For plenty of good reasons, Lewis has a lot of fans. Sitting here in 2021, if you are a content creator (whether that be a YouTuber, RD, Autosport, etc), creating an article or video or what have you with the title "Lewis Hamilton: GOAT" or "Is Lewis the GOAT?" or whatever is gonna get you a lot of eyeballs. That's not a criticism - quite the opposite, that is content creators doing exactly what they are supposed to do - but the fact is they know they are wading into very lively waters with a lot of "sentimentality" on both sides of the question.
I'll tell you something - 20 years from now when Autosport does a "the greatest grand prix drivers of all time" article for the 15,000,000,000th time in the history of motorsport journalism...I'm not going to be so bold as to say where Lewis will be ranked, but I am going to say in the little blurb about him, whether they rank him 1st, 10th, or 100th, they will address/acknowledge the era in which he compiled a significant proportion of his achievements. That is to say, the V6 hybrid era, which is destined to go down as the least competitive in F1 history to this point. That doesn't mean you can't put Lewis 1st, it just means you can't do that and expect me (and many others) to take you seriously if you don't address that elephant in the room within your argument.
I think you can go even a step further and say that, within the wider realm of "sport", there are things that are unique to F1 that make doing comparative evaluations extremely difficult.
With any kind of public debate like this, I think there is a lot of sentimentality that comes into play, as well. For plenty of good reasons, Lewis has a lot of fans. Sitting here in 2021, if you are a content creator (whether that be a YouTuber, RD, Autosport, etc), creating an article or video or what have you with the title "Lewis Hamilton: GOAT" or "Is Lewis the GOAT?" or whatever is gonna get you a lot of eyeballs. That's not a criticism - quite the opposite, that is content creators doing exactly what they are supposed to do - but the fact is they know they are wading into very lively waters with a lot of "sentimentality" on both sides of the question.
I'll tell you something - 20 years from now when Autosport does a "the greatest grand prix drivers of all time" article for the 15,000,000,000th time in the history of motorsport journalism...I'm not going to be so bold as to say where Lewis will be ranked, but I am going to say in the little blurb about him, whether they rank him 1st, 10th, or 100th, they will address/acknowledge the era in which he compiled a significant proportion of his achievements. That is to say, the V6 hybrid era, which is destined to go down as the least competitive in F1 history to this point. That doesn't mean you can't put Lewis 1st, it just means you can't do that and expect me (and many others) to take you seriously if you don't address that elephant in the room within your argument.
