Alright when was that again.....?
- Thread starter Bram Hengeveld
- Start date
IMO you cant say that one driver is the best F1 driver ever, its all about the eras they drove in. Juan Manuel Fangio would suck if you put him into a new F1 car, Lewis hamilton would suck if you put him in Fangios car. I think yall get my point. He is the GOAT of this ERA for sure.
There is only 1. Senna have a look at the Monaco GP when he was in a heap of junk Candy F1 car.
Robbed of the win because the President of the FIA called off the race completely against the rules.
Then have a look at the race at Donnington it the McLaren, in a different league to the rest.
But as usual there are different times, let the drivers these days have to deal with changing gears with a stick shift like Senna, Prost, Mansell and Clark and Don't forget Brabham the only driver to win with his (own Car) never to be repeated again.
Different times personal preference of course.
I hate drivers today driving computers.
It is like choosing between an F40 or a McLaren P1 different times which is faster or better for me pure power and raw feel no computer to operate the throttle or anti lock brakes stabilisers adjusting through corners.
Seat of the pants driving and Senna had that more than all the others, my personal choice.
Robbed of the win because the President of the FIA called off the race completely against the rules.
Then have a look at the race at Donnington it the McLaren, in a different league to the rest.
But as usual there are different times, let the drivers these days have to deal with changing gears with a stick shift like Senna, Prost, Mansell and Clark and Don't forget Brabham the only driver to win with his (own Car) never to be repeated again.
Different times personal preference of course.
I hate drivers today driving computers.
It is like choosing between an F40 or a McLaren P1 different times which is faster or better for me pure power and raw feel no computer to operate the throttle or anti lock brakes stabilisers adjusting through corners.
Seat of the pants driving and Senna had that more than all the others, my personal choice.
Michael - Dirty driver
Prost - Not good in the rain
Jimmy - Maybe
Fangio - Too long ago. Different sport.
Stuart - No, even he thinks Jimmy is better
Senna - Maybe
Hamilton - Maybe
Jimmy, Senna, Hamilton are the best of all time.
Prost - Not good in the rain
Jimmy - Maybe
Fangio - Too long ago. Different sport.
Stuart - No, even he thinks Jimmy is better
Senna - Maybe
Hamilton - Maybe
Jimmy, Senna, Hamilton are the best of all time.
One of the greats for sure, but I can't call him the GOAT when Russell jumped in his car with no practice and dominated the race. Plus, I can't call anyone the best when they were beaten by a midpack driver in the same car (Rosberg and Button). Sure Senna lost one to Prost and vice versa, but losing to a fellow great isn't the same as losing to guys Rosberg and Button who with no disrespect really aren't among the greats.
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Yes.
Durge Driven
DD
Take current batch to Nords to drive Mercedes W196 flat out in pouring rain
Can't quite make out Lewis
Can't quite make out Lewis
This is so true. Especially Group B drivers.
I definitely agree with some previous posts, most of the greatest drivers were in completely different eras, driving completely different cars with varying performance.
In my opinion, I don't think we could name anyone as the GOAT, because they all did their thing differently in different circumstances, like the state of technological advancement, reliability and safety standards. Some drove supercharged tanks fitted with modified WWII aircraft engines on bicycle tyres wearing only a piece of leather and goggles, whereas some drove extremely powerful turbo cars that grinded the rear tyres on the track like there's no tomorrow.
Drivers like Fangio, Clark, Lauda, Prost, Senna, Shumacher, Hakkinen and Hamilton all were one of the finest of their time and remain as huge icons in our memories. I can't possibly say one was superior to the rest!! Especially considering the fact that I haven't even the slightest idea of what it was like to race in those cars.
In my opinion, I don't think we could name anyone as the GOAT, because they all did their thing differently in different circumstances, like the state of technological advancement, reliability and safety standards. Some drove supercharged tanks fitted with modified WWII aircraft engines on bicycle tyres wearing only a piece of leather and goggles, whereas some drove extremely powerful turbo cars that grinded the rear tyres on the track like there's no tomorrow.
Drivers like Fangio, Clark, Lauda, Prost, Senna, Shumacher, Hakkinen and Hamilton all were one of the finest of their time and remain as huge icons in our memories. I can't possibly say one was superior to the rest!! Especially considering the fact that I haven't even the slightest idea of what it was like to race in those cars.
Robin_NL
Premium
In F1 I'd say it was Jim Clark followed by Schumi and Senna.
My personal favourite Mansell.but he is not the GOAT.
In real life I think top tier rallydrivers are way ahead of 'any F1' driver. And I mean way ahead in car control and having the balls for it.
Vatanen, Kankkunen, Mikkola, Blomqvist, Alén, Salonen, Röhrl etc.
My favourites Toivonen(RIP) and the real GOAT pro driver: Sebastien Loeb.
Cheers
Robin
My personal favourite Mansell.but he is not the GOAT.
In real life I think top tier rallydrivers are way ahead of 'any F1' driver. And I mean way ahead in car control and having the balls for it.
Vatanen, Kankkunen, Mikkola, Blomqvist, Alén, Salonen, Röhrl etc.
My favourites Toivonen(RIP) and the real GOAT pro driver: Sebastien Loeb.
Cheers
Robin
Jordan didn't do it by himself. I vote Edwin Moses. Look him up. Won gold medals in the 400 m hurdles at the 1976 and 1984 Olympics. He was undefeated for nine years, nine months and nine days. Won 107 consecutive finals (122 consecutive "world class races") and set the world record in the event four times. No one has a record that matches Edwin Moses
Group B wasn't automobilism... that was Divinity parading on Earth, with wheels.
The earliest I can recall watching F1 was snippets of it in the early 2000s on Speedvision, with the only F1 driver I heard of at the time being Schumacher. Being an amateur history buff, including motorsport history, I felt compelled to research more since I began watching/following in 2014, and mainly on a part-time basis, which was also when Hamilton started winning again and again for Mercedes. Bad timing, I know. Ergo, don't take this as an expert opinion, please.
Do I believe Hamilton is a skilled driver? Yes. No question. Do I think he is GOAT right now? Seriously? The answer is the same as to him getting his apparent knighthood. Way too soon. Those who want to knight him seriously should have waited until he retired completely from motorsport period. Since I don't live in the UK, I can't claim any knowledge on how to qualify for such an honor, but I firmly believe one such qualification should be that the recipient's career, be it in sport, entertainment, politics, etc., should be over (underline for emphasis). The main reason I can see, without doing much research, for his knighthood is ideological. Which brings me to my next point. Over the past couple of years, I've grown annoyed by his off-track actions and viewpoints in addition to his over-aged childish behavior. This past year he's dragged his beliefs with him to the track, which like most entertainment venues anywhere, should be neutral ground; a place for all people of all walks of life and viewpoints. He may not intend this to happen, but when people like him express his politics during an event and even go far enough to try and force others to agree with him, it's akin to him saying he wants to lose fans and so should the sport.
GOAT candidates in any sport should not be forcing fans to leave that sport. Period. They should be doing their darnedest to keep them at least in the sport.
Finally, I don't necessarily think he's winning the way he is just because he has great equipment with Mercedes. Time and time again this past season we've all seen in one instance or another what the sport can be like without him as a factor. An F1 without Hamilton as a competitor/dominator has proven to be entertaining, if not a truthful revelation of the skills of the rest of the grid. It's as if his absence turned off a restrictive switch habitually built in to the minds of everyone else. There are great and potentially great drivers out there on the grid and waiting in the wings. I think a good chunk of the problem is with the other teams. As a part-time Ferrari fan, it pains me to say that team is now struggling to find how to win without cheating (intentionally or otherwise), and having a history of lions being led by deer (see the Theodore Roosevelt quote if you don't understand the reference). Mclaren can't find a proper engine supplier or keep good drivers. Red Bull, the closest Mercedes has to rivals, is too much like them in one respect: they both have a great lead driver, but both are also having a hard time keeping a number two driver. The key difference is Mercedes doesn't have to worry about engine suppliers, as opposed to Red Bull. Racing Point/Aston Martin threw away a good driver because he has the wrong last name and a smaller wallet, in addition to an aerodynamics department with no imagination. The others are more concerned with being junior teams trying to score one point per event and finding the best place to farm out their drivers to. I may be wrong, but the FIA has gone after Mercedes a few times for violating the rules, so I don't think we can claim Ferrari-Todt style bias by them towards Mercedes.
In short, it's easy for one to be greatest of his respective era when it seems the competition has, with the exception of one Mad Max Verstappen, given up trying to win event after event and just got content with less because of one driver.
So with Hamilton being the best of the 2010s by default only, I think that it must be said that Schumacher was the best of the 2000s, Senna and then Hakinnen being the best of the '90s, and so forth. To each era, their own, and please leave it as such.
Do I believe Hamilton is a skilled driver? Yes. No question. Do I think he is GOAT right now? Seriously? The answer is the same as to him getting his apparent knighthood. Way too soon. Those who want to knight him seriously should have waited until he retired completely from motorsport period. Since I don't live in the UK, I can't claim any knowledge on how to qualify for such an honor, but I firmly believe one such qualification should be that the recipient's career, be it in sport, entertainment, politics, etc., should be over (underline for emphasis). The main reason I can see, without doing much research, for his knighthood is ideological. Which brings me to my next point. Over the past couple of years, I've grown annoyed by his off-track actions and viewpoints in addition to his over-aged childish behavior. This past year he's dragged his beliefs with him to the track, which like most entertainment venues anywhere, should be neutral ground; a place for all people of all walks of life and viewpoints. He may not intend this to happen, but when people like him express his politics during an event and even go far enough to try and force others to agree with him, it's akin to him saying he wants to lose fans and so should the sport.
GOAT candidates in any sport should not be forcing fans to leave that sport. Period. They should be doing their darnedest to keep them at least in the sport.
Finally, I don't necessarily think he's winning the way he is just because he has great equipment with Mercedes. Time and time again this past season we've all seen in one instance or another what the sport can be like without him as a factor. An F1 without Hamilton as a competitor/dominator has proven to be entertaining, if not a truthful revelation of the skills of the rest of the grid. It's as if his absence turned off a restrictive switch habitually built in to the minds of everyone else. There are great and potentially great drivers out there on the grid and waiting in the wings. I think a good chunk of the problem is with the other teams. As a part-time Ferrari fan, it pains me to say that team is now struggling to find how to win without cheating (intentionally or otherwise), and having a history of lions being led by deer (see the Theodore Roosevelt quote if you don't understand the reference). Mclaren can't find a proper engine supplier or keep good drivers. Red Bull, the closest Mercedes has to rivals, is too much like them in one respect: they both have a great lead driver, but both are also having a hard time keeping a number two driver. The key difference is Mercedes doesn't have to worry about engine suppliers, as opposed to Red Bull. Racing Point/Aston Martin threw away a good driver because he has the wrong last name and a smaller wallet, in addition to an aerodynamics department with no imagination. The others are more concerned with being junior teams trying to score one point per event and finding the best place to farm out their drivers to. I may be wrong, but the FIA has gone after Mercedes a few times for violating the rules, so I don't think we can claim Ferrari-Todt style bias by them towards Mercedes.
In short, it's easy for one to be greatest of his respective era when it seems the competition has, with the exception of one Mad Max Verstappen, given up trying to win event after event and just got content with less because of one driver.
So with Hamilton being the best of the 2010s by default only, I think that it must be said that Schumacher was the best of the 2000s, Senna and then Hakinnen being the best of the '90s, and so forth. To each era, their own, and please leave it as such.
you can't compare, and ultimately doesnt' matter, lot of amazing drivers are great in their own rights
For me GOAT is Ayrton Senna, he was able to do magic with much worse cars, he was able to beat world champion team mates , he beaten everyone in Mercedes E180 race, and he even managed to quality first in very uncompetitive car in Imola in his last ever race
he could have at least attempted to race in Race of Champions to show if he would dominate there, then I could rethink what I said
For me GOAT is Ayrton Senna, he was able to do magic with much worse cars, he was able to beat world champion team mates , he beaten everyone in Mercedes E180 race, and he even managed to quality first in very uncompetitive car in Imola in his last ever race
he could have at least attempted to race in Race of Champions to show if he would dominate there, then I could rethink what I said
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i think @Gevatter 's comment "A rule of thumb I like to use to gauge the dominant car vs dominant driver dilemma is to look at how may 1-2 wins the car has. If there are a lot of them, it's probably the car, unless 1st has a significant lead on 2nd. If the results are mixed, it's probably more the drivers talent and work than him being carried by the car." is very accurate. A great example of this in motorsports today I believe is Marc Marquez. Always miles ahead of his team mates.
George Russell's short stint in the Merc at Bahkrain went to show how much the car has to do with Hamilton's success, imo.
In F1, Fangio or Clark come straight to mind when F1 driver GOAT is quizzed.
George Russell's short stint in the Merc at Bahkrain went to show how much the car has to do with Hamilton's success, imo.
In F1, Fangio or Clark come straight to mind when F1 driver GOAT is quizzed.
You forgot Piquet and Lauda.
Get in there, Sir Lewis.
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Newer gen driver are far more competitive. The whole current grid of drivers or teams are probably far better than Ayrton Senna era at the moment. They have all the tool they have to be a much better driver.
To keep winning with all those crazy people, it's a feat in itself.
To keep winning with all those crazy people, it's a feat in itself.
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GOAT of what? Racing in circles with no competition? George Russell already showed what the car is capable of doing. Its like me racing in a 4 people bobsled championship having 3 guys push me at the start but then only I stay in a sled and race against 4 guys in a sled. Ofcourse im gonna get down the slope quicker because im lighter. This is how his championships feel like. On top of that all the great champions had to prove themselves in crappy cars even tho many came from dominating f3000 or f2 just like he did but still got a crappy drive afterwards. Schumi, Senna, Prost, Clark are all above him. Alain Prost for instance had a fair more impressive career then him. Just look at all the WDCs he beat. Meanwhile Lewis lost to Jenson Button lmao.. Then goes to Mercedes in 2013 Nico wins more races over him and suddenly Lewis dominates him next year with rule change. No driver ever went from winning 1 race to winning 11 in a season. His stats are simply due to the car. No doubt he is a great driver but the fact that Massa, Webber , Jenson, Kimi, Vettel, Alonso managed to win championships over him or outscore him during a season when they were all racing in somewhat equal conditions says enough. if he was any better than they are and makes such a big difference he would have won the title with Mcl in 2010 and 2012. Yes he did have alot of Dnfs during that period but not all of them were due to the car and other drivers werent exactly trouble free either. Also Alonso outscored him every one of those seasons despite driving a slower car. Nobody is actually the goat but if I had a tier list I would consider Prost or Clark before anyone because they were genuine raw talents. Schumi just loses out because of his weak temmates but even he had a bigger raw ability then Lewis. Prost almost became a footballer and Clark barely knew what motorracing was before the age of 18. Yet he tried it and was immidiately faster than his friends. Now thats talent. This is a clear example of stats not telling the whole story. My personal favorite is a guy not many remember today. He only won 5 races in his career altho he is a champion. His name is Keke Rosberg. Why? Because when I watch him drive I see magic. He always outperformed his cars and his teammates. Williams made some shocking cars in mid 80s yet he was able to win races with them. He always diced with champions who were in better vehicles and on top of that his raw ability and speed was blinding. From 1982 until 1985 he never once crashed out of the race due to his error and ive seen all of his races. He never got a best car he deserved and for a WDC his stats are **** which makes him seem like he wasnt as good as Prost or Senna but he certainly was just the cars he drove were not good.
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