Its hard to say Lewis is GOAT becuse the rulles chainge so mutch and there are big differences to earas. In the 50's there where less events per year. The cars tracks and saftey has chainged a lot. In the 50's and 60's and 70's a risk could kill you or another driver. Today a risk can be made with mimimal chance of injuring or killing yourself or another driver. It si a sport where you can die or become paralised but if you count the number of crashes to fatal injurys it will be like a fraction of a percent.So the odds are in the drivers favor he will come out with minimal injures.
Alright when was that again.....?
- Thread starter Bram Hengeveld
- Start date
As by the numbers maybe.. but there is something about hamilton why he is in my eyes not a goat.
If he was a really a goat he go to ferrari..and life the dream to drive for them.
He is telling every time who he loves ferrari.. so help ferrari then!! Show what you got show the balls like from mclaren to mercedes (not the best team that moment) but no.. he stays (maybe) at mercedes keeping it safe.. we saw what russell did in the same car so its not all hamilton and he knows it..
If he was that great he would let russell drive one more time... but he was affraid of people seeing that he is not the greatest.. that mercedes is the greatest even without him.
2nd off all pressing his political agenda
On others that was the final nail for me.
I hope mercedes dont sign him again.
Let hem do a freakin rosberg is what i am hoping.. to say goodbye to active f1 driver hamilton
If he was a really a goat he go to ferrari..and life the dream to drive for them.
He is telling every time who he loves ferrari.. so help ferrari then!! Show what you got show the balls like from mclaren to mercedes (not the best team that moment) but no.. he stays (maybe) at mercedes keeping it safe.. we saw what russell did in the same car so its not all hamilton and he knows it..
If he was that great he would let russell drive one more time... but he was affraid of people seeing that he is not the greatest.. that mercedes is the greatest even without him.
2nd off all pressing his political agenda
On others that was the final nail for me.
I hope mercedes dont sign him again.
Let hem do a freakin rosberg is what i am hoping.. to say goodbye to active f1 driver hamilton
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You can argue which doctor, actor, philosopher, cook chief is the best. But in sports the best is who wins more.
Rosberg (father and son) 
Hamilton in front while Bottas in 2nd holding up anyone with a chance, best car, best team but not the GOAT
My 2 pennies worth.
I think it's hard to say if he is the GOAT as this is his era he as dominated, as Schumacher did in the 90's and early 00's.
Then you had stand outs throughout the history: Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Piquet, Prost and Senna and all those in between.
So i think no one is the GOAT, only those that stand out from the era they are in.
But importantly, It's all subjective.
For me, I have no favourite driver and never have and never will, I only have envious massive respect for all those that have raced to to those that still do.
I think it's hard to say if he is the GOAT as this is his era he as dominated, as Schumacher did in the 90's and early 00's.
Then you had stand outs throughout the history: Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Piquet, Prost and Senna and all those in between.
So i think no one is the GOAT, only those that stand out from the era they are in.
But importantly, It's all subjective.
For me, I have no favourite driver and never have and never will, I only have envious massive respect for all those that have raced to to those that still do.
Well my opinion on the matter is that measuring a driver's worth by his records is a bit weak, considering the comparison points are unequal.
My reasoning is that Lewis had quite a bit more races (quick estimation of 18-19 races per seasons) in an equivalent amount of seasons to accomplish his feats than Michael (estimation of 15-16 per seasons). Had all the data somewhere but in a hurry I can't find them.
I'd add that Michael had many seasons where he had great rivals which had just as capable cars and talents than Lewis did.
Edit (Post I did somewhere else on the matter when Lewis equaled Schumi's win record).
You can't compare Schumi's record to "Hamilton's", for the simple fact that in Schumi's era there was on average quite less GP per season (about 16) compared to Hamilton (19-20 per seasons), which means it is easier to beat records related to amounts of wins, races, before the end of ones career.
Schumi's last win was during his 16th season, which was his last before he retired (before his comeback that is), and on his 246th GP too.
Hamilton's on his 261st GP, and just reached it (on his 13th seasons), and arguably still has a few seasons left.
So, apples to apples, Hamilton would have achieved it 2-3 seasons later than Schumi did if we still had ~16 GP per seasons, maybe he wouldn't have achieved it either, considering the rise of new young talents (similar to when Schumi retired) we are seeing.
My reasoning is that Lewis had quite a bit more races (quick estimation of 18-19 races per seasons) in an equivalent amount of seasons to accomplish his feats than Michael (estimation of 15-16 per seasons). Had all the data somewhere but in a hurry I can't find them.
I'd add that Michael had many seasons where he had great rivals which had just as capable cars and talents than Lewis did.
Edit (Post I did somewhere else on the matter when Lewis equaled Schumi's win record).
You can't compare Schumi's record to "Hamilton's", for the simple fact that in Schumi's era there was on average quite less GP per season (about 16) compared to Hamilton (19-20 per seasons), which means it is easier to beat records related to amounts of wins, races, before the end of ones career.
Schumi's last win was during his 16th season, which was his last before he retired (before his comeback that is), and on his 246th GP too.
Hamilton's on his 261st GP, and just reached it (on his 13th seasons), and arguably still has a few seasons left.
So, apples to apples, Hamilton would have achieved it 2-3 seasons later than Schumi did if we still had ~16 GP per seasons, maybe he wouldn't have achieved it either, considering the rise of new young talents (similar to when Schumi retired) we are seeing.
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i think its pointless to argue who the GOAT of F1 is. F1 is so old that most fans of today never watched people like jim clark race. F1 constantly evolves, what makes a great F1 driver constantly changes.
the best one can do is make a list of legendary drivers and put the best drivers of all time into that category. it would be stupid to judge any driver based on statistics because even that is heavily biased towards the era you were driving in. todays calender has many more races than past f1 seasons. todays f1 has a different point scoring system. todays f1 has a different qualifying format. its why michael schumacher for example doesnt have as many pole positions as you would expect. because at certain seasons you started on quali fuel, so it wasnt neccessarily best so start on pole. its just one example of many
the best one can do is make a list of legendary drivers and put the best drivers of all time into that category. it would be stupid to judge any driver based on statistics because even that is heavily biased towards the era you were driving in. todays calender has many more races than past f1 seasons. todays f1 has a different point scoring system. todays f1 has a different qualifying format. its why michael schumacher for example doesnt have as many pole positions as you would expect. because at certain seasons you started on quali fuel, so it wasnt neccessarily best so start on pole. its just one example of many
Who knows, F1 is far from being a place where every driver can be measured cos they fight in equal conditions, since allways was a car builder championship, not a drivers championship. I believe the "real world" probably aint gonna change ever, the only place where a equal drivers figth can happen is here in simracing in "everybody with same car" championships. But... dunno if the car builders gonna be happy with this kind of change.
Regards.
Regards.
Man I'm so disappointed, I was expecting the pool to have at least 80%+ of "No".
The video above is neither for or against him being the GOAT; I use to rate people in such ways but I realize more and more that GOAT debates in any profession/sport that evolves over time (pretty much all of them) are pointless, similar to who is the best musician of all time: Some people thinks it's how fast they can play, for some it's how many records they've sold, how many hit songs they've written, others think it's how well they can improvise. For others they worship their tone and for others it's just how their music makes them feel...endless reasons that inevitably make the GOAT moniker have little weight because there's no gold standard for greatness.
Similarly in racing you have fans with different barometers and different biases towards certain facets of what makes a driver the "best". Some drivers put in legendary drives or break records, that are praised by some and go unnoticed by others...so it's ultimately emotional arguments that can never have a clear cut winner. Even stats which were made for purposes of comparison are often disputed for every and any reason as well.
In the end, I think many arguments against Hamilton often discredit his achievements in a Merc unfairly and disregard the things he did pre-Mercedes and pre-F1. I think Hamilton should be ranked with the all time greats...no disclaimer, no asterisk...point blank period. All that said, lets assume a GOAT is possible:
The car argument: Most of the drivers people are suggesting here as GOAT instead of Hamilton also won their WDC(s) in cars that were, at worse the 2nd best car and at best just as OP as the W11 was this year...how can you discredit Hamilton's innate ability because of the Merc and not discredit Schumacher for the Ferrari that was OP for at least 2-3 seasons and the 94 Benetton that allegedly had TC, or Mansell who only won a WDC in the active suspension Williams, Prost who won all but 1 WDC with McLaren: the "Merc" of the 1980's. It goes on and on...and for the record I think all those drivers I named are exceptional, however Hamilton doesn't get a pass for whatever reason. Where's the consistency? If Hamilton is average then half of the legends are average by proxy. Not to mention the whole car argument is nullified in rain races and HAM has proven himself time and time again in the wet in a Merc, In a Mclaren, in GP2, etc.
The technology argument: the "No driver in the modern era (i.e. last 20 years) can stand up to the real "legends" because the cars drive themselves nowadays"
...so by that measure, any legend from the 70's to 90's must suck compared to 50's - 60's drivers because Aero (and subsequently ground effect) were some of the first "driver assists"...wait, but 60's drivers must also suck compared to the pre-1958-59 guys because having the engine behind you balanced the car much more...but then again drivers of today have to react at higher speeds and undergo way more G's than the 1950's guys...it's a circular argument. Similar is the "Fangio couldn't handle a modern car, Hamilton could handle a vintage car" opinion: A 20 year old "Fangio" growing up in this era would be a finely tuned athlete just like modern day guys and crush the competition...similarly, I believe a 40 year old "Hamilton" competing against mostly the upper class gentlemen with more money than skill would have the skills and build necessary to dominate. Don't assume either would lack the ability to adapt to their time...if we're entertaining hypothetical arguments that is.The personality argument: People voting no simply because they don't like him (as a person, not as a driver)... LMAO
...I didn't realise being saintly/perfect outside the car (whatever that is to you) was a prerequisite of being the F1 GOAT...this isn't Miss Universe guys it's FORMULA ONE. None of the other guys frequently mentioned could claim to be any better...in fact, most of them are/were proper a-holes in one way or another depending on who you talk to...so irrelevant.and finally...the "Russell dominated in the W11 in 1 race so Hamilton must suck" argument:
Russell is a strong F2 Champion that ended up in a crappy car. Russell is also 22 years old. Everyone likes to claim Russell/Leclerc/Verstappen would be WDC in the Merc (and I don't doubt that at all). HOWEVER...Hamilton is almost 15 years older than these guys...his reflexes shouldn't be on par or better than someone of their age and caliber in a single race, let alone countless races across several seasons...but somehow it is...that's not average.
That race didn't prove that Hamilton is average...the Merc is powerful, no argument there; on the contrary it showed that he's a middle age guy with the same speed as 20 year olds that trained for this all their life...and his proven consistency makes him more valuable than Russell, Verstappen and Leclerc (they'll get there, but not quite there yet). Lewis Hamilton is an exceptional Formula 1 driver...there was only one direction this poll could go (given past threads about him)...but that doesn't mean Hamilton is not brilliant or not deserving of being in the GOAT discussion.
I'm glad someone is not blinded by bias and saw the facts
...It's like Lewis started driving in 2014 and that's all they know about.if all a person knows of old F1 is highlight reels and people waxing nostalgic, then they should be forgiven for not realising there were some boring processions of a race in every era...same for “engine sounds like crap” or “cars/tracks need to be 100% unsafe to be called racing” arguments.
Let me explain why I voted no:
Lewis Hamilton is an incredible driver. I used to hate him. I don't anymore. He's a very hard worker, a good person, and has amazing car control. What I think is his strongest ability is his consistency, and focus. If I had a fraction of his consistency, and focus... oh man. So why don't I give him the GOAT?
Anyone who knows anything about the sport knows it's the car. Michael Schumacher admitted it, as have previous drivers in F1 I'm sure, and many others. The difference with Lewis is how dominant* his car has been. Now, we've seen that his teammates can't always match his pace even in the same car - so we know he's good. We also know he's good because of his lap time when he was on Top Gear - and they all drove the same car there. We also know Lewis is a fantastic driver from pre-2014 season.
However, since the 2014 season he's been driving the most dominant car with the most dominant team. I don't think we should hate him for it. After all if it wasn't him it would have been Nico Rosberg, or somebody else. The team would have still won all the constructor's championships, and one or both drivers would have one all, or most of the championships.
I think F1 has been boring since 2014. I'd have liked to have seen what Lewis could have done if the racing had been closer. I'm sure he'd have won 2-3 championships on skill and effort. In a way he was in the right place at the right time. All famous sportsmen were on strong teams. Lewis outperformed his teammates. It's the fans that lost - we didn't get to see more exciting races and closer championships.
Lewis deserves his success; I just wish it had been more exciting for us fans.
*(others' have had dominant cars, but not nearly to the extent of Mercedes-AMG-Petronas team from 2014- )
Lewis Hamilton is an incredible driver. I used to hate him. I don't anymore. He's a very hard worker, a good person, and has amazing car control. What I think is his strongest ability is his consistency, and focus. If I had a fraction of his consistency, and focus... oh man. So why don't I give him the GOAT?
Anyone who knows anything about the sport knows it's the car. Michael Schumacher admitted it, as have previous drivers in F1 I'm sure, and many others. The difference with Lewis is how dominant* his car has been. Now, we've seen that his teammates can't always match his pace even in the same car - so we know he's good. We also know he's good because of his lap time when he was on Top Gear - and they all drove the same car there. We also know Lewis is a fantastic driver from pre-2014 season.
However, since the 2014 season he's been driving the most dominant car with the most dominant team. I don't think we should hate him for it. After all if it wasn't him it would have been Nico Rosberg, or somebody else. The team would have still won all the constructor's championships, and one or both drivers would have one all, or most of the championships.
I think F1 has been boring since 2014. I'd have liked to have seen what Lewis could have done if the racing had been closer. I'm sure he'd have won 2-3 championships on skill and effort. In a way he was in the right place at the right time. All famous sportsmen were on strong teams. Lewis outperformed his teammates. It's the fans that lost - we didn't get to see more exciting races and closer championships.
Lewis deserves his success; I just wish it had been more exciting for us fans.
*(others' have had dominant cars, but not nearly to the extent of Mercedes-AMG-Petronas team from 2014- )
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I voted no, because there is an argument to be made for several drivers being the GOAT, including Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, and Hamilton. I will say this though, even though I hate his politics, I will always rate Hamilton higher than Schumacher for the simple fact that he never resorted to the dirty tactics Michael did. He never crashed his car on his own then drove the broken car back onto the track and hit his championship rival, like Michael did with Damon Hill. He never intentionally drove his car into a rival to try and stop the rival from winning the championship, like Michael did with Villeneuve. He also never parked his car intentionally in La Rascasse during qualifying like Michael did at Monaco, to stop a rival out qualifying him. Of course this is only my opinion.
Don Bradman in cricket.
I think we are cause, as I understand, within not too long global changes is forcing f1 to go electric. So that makes it hard for a new driver to exceed and overlap these insane records. Not very hamilton fan btw
