Valve Index or Oculus Rift S (and motion sickness)

[Rainman2020]

Hi, my name is Randy Flowers. 58 year old kid in Dallas Texas. This is my very first ever sim racing forum post! Sorry, it's a long post that has been building up for the past month! Thanks for the help in advance

About a month ago, i saw by mistake a Jimmy Broadbent video of him racing a 60s grand prix car around spa and he was wearing a VR headset, and i was instantly pulled into the sim racing rabbit hole! OH NO!!! My main desire is to get into sim racing using VR, and i have never yet used VR at all for anything.

I do get motion sick as a rule in life. I get sick in a car backseat, but not if i am holding onto the steering wheel and driving. I am super concerned that i will get motion sick and it will keep me from playing in VR. So, i am thinking of doing all the normal stuff, using a fan, doing it in short stints and stopping immediately when feeling sick, using a wrist band TENS unit thing like the Emeterm electrode stimulator, etc, but i am still concerned that it may be hard for me to 'get my VR legs'.

I am thinking of going straight for the Valve Index so that i can run at 120fps/hz and hopefully that will be my best chance of being able to handle VR and not get sick.

I found Jeff Ford at www.fegpc.net (who has built a ton of sim racing rigs), and he is helping me put my computer upgrade, rig and sim gear together and building it for me! He actually recommends the Oculus Rift S as his favorite VR headset, and he says that preventing motion sickness is much more about keeping the Rift S at a constant 80fps than it is about getting the fps up to 120fps. I would definitely rather spend only $400 on a Rift S if that will work great for me, but i have read forums that swear by the Valve Index as having solved their motion sickness issues (when they were coming from a Rift), and it seems like the superior headset for graphics/sound and comfort.

I know i need a computer that is capable of running either the Valve at a steady 120fps or the Rift S at a steady 80fps, and Jeff assures me that the following rig he is putting together will do that...it is:

i5-9600KF OC'd to 4.7-5.2 (he says done this way it is comparable to the i9-9900K for much less money, he adds the OC for free)
RTX 2070 Super (he will OC this also)
16 GB DDR4 (he will OC this also)

As a backup, if i do get motion sick with VR and just can't get past it, then i will be able to smoke a new 1440p/144hz 32 inch monitor i am also getting, so i can use that as my backup and still be able to Sim Race, but i WANT TO USE VR!

Note that i am wanting a really good VR resolution/graphics too and do want to be able to see the dash board numbers clearly, etc. I have also heard that the graphics are much better with the Valve, that the Rift S sound is terrible (do Rift S owners all play with separate headphones on?), and that the Valve is much more comfortable.

A final note is that i wear glasses (John Lennon types), and wondering how that will affect the Valve or the Rift S.

So...my questions are:

1) Which headset would you use between the Valve Index and Rift S and why?
2) Will using the Valve Index at 120fps be a big help to possible motion sickness compared to the Rift S at 80fps?
3) Will i actually be able to run the Valve Index at 120fps, or even the Rift S at 80fps, with the above basic computer rig?
4) How good will the graphics be on the Valve Index vs the Rift S (and will the above rig be able to run the graphics at good looking settings in VR and out of VR)?
4) Will i be able to wear John Lennon style glasses with both the Valve and Rift S just fine?

Thanks!

Randy

 

[Locoblade]

Do keep in mind that since the headset moves with your head, the lesser FOV of the Rift S (which is still about on par with a single screen) isn't as limiting as it might sound, as you can quickly throw a peek to the sides and see cars side by side with you or in the side mirrors.

I think even a regular 110 degree VR headset will give a significantly wider FOV than most single monitor setups assuming you can wear it correctly and get the lenses at the correct distance from your eye. I've just done a quick calc using this site (https://andyf.me/fovcalc.html) and to get even 100 degrees of dimensionally accurate FOV from a single monitor you'd need a 49" 32:9 screen around 50cm away from your face, so a pretty extreme monitor mounted right behind your wheel in most cases. That's also doesn't then take into account the additional FOV you get by being able to turn your head as you mentioned, so although wider is obviously always nice, I don't think standard ~110 degree headsets are as limiting as they're sometimes made out to be.

 

[metalnwood]

I think even a regular 110 degree VR headset will give a significantly wider FOV than most single monitor setups assuming you can wear it correctly and get the lenses at the correct distance from your eye. I've just done a quick calc using this site (https://andyf.me/fovcalc.html) and to get even 100 degrees of dimensionally accurate FOV from a single monitor you'd need a 49" 32:9 screen around 50cm away from your face, so a pretty extreme monitor mounted right behind your wheel in most cases. That's also doesn't then take into account the additional FOV you get by being able to turn your head as you mentioned, so although wider is obviously always nice, I don't think standard ~110 degree headsets are as limiting as they're sometimes made out to be.

I think there is no contest between the fov of any 110 degree vr headset and a single monitor. The vr wins every time as the fov is always more than the area that you are actually concentrating on and moves with your head to give you an effective fov of however larger head movement you want.

 

[Locoblade]

Yep as I mention looking at FOV as a number compared to monitors doesn't take into account what you also gain from head movement. 110 degrees of VR FOV moves with your head so your eyes are always getting 55 degrees either side of the point you're looking at, whereas on a monitor you only ever get a FOV relative to a fixed point in the centre of the screen.

 

[RCHeliguy]

My observations about VR nausea.

Personal Experience without motion ( had nausea, got over it )
I started with a CV1 and a static rig and Dirt Rally. I lasted about 20-25 minutes before I got so uncomfortable I had to stop, but I stuck with it and 6 days later I was golden. I had earned my VR legs!!!! Hurrah! Then I tried flying with Eve Valkyrie spinning in space was different, but in another day I was OK there too.

Guest Experience without motion
I've had many people on my rig and Dirt Rally is high on the nausea scale.
My son never had an issue, but most people would last ONE STAGE before turning green. Typical stages in Dirt Rally are 4-8 minutes long.

Guest Experience with motion with Rift
I added an NLRv3 seat mover to my rig and in VR it made a WORLD of difference. I won't pretend it's perfect but it definitely tricks your brain into thinking you are actually moving.
My visitors almost all suddenly had no problem playing Dirt Rally for an entire stage or two and managed to be OK even if they had a wreck. This is for return visitors who had bad experience previous and people completely new to VR.

So the motion system with the old Rift at 90fps pretty well eliminated nausea.

Experience with Motion with Index
The Index has MUCH better SDE than the Rift did and I actually do run it at 120 fps in iRacing and Dirt Rally 2.0. The audio is excellent, the comfort is WONDERFUL. The combination of comfort, high frame rate and motion and a pretty nice rig if I can brag a little make it very easy for me to spend hours comfortably driving in VR.

Visitors like the Index better and I've gotten more comments about how they didn't expect the VR experience to be this far along for people trying VR out on the Index for the first time.

I can't say there was no difference with the Index at 120fps, but nausea went away with motion and I'm not sure if there was a noticeable difference at 120fps. I can say that I'm more comfortable staying in VR longer at 120 fps. It feels more natural.

I'm running an i9-9900K, 2080Ti and Valve Index at 120fps, with VRSS and pretty much all graphics cranked up. In Dirt Rally I have to dial down the graphics a bit to get 120 fps, but it holds solidly, or I can Max everything to Ultra and run solidly at 90 fps.

If it matters I'm 53, and started in VR about 2.5 years ago.

I read some of your earlier comments about the reviews you had read. Once the Index is setup, it hinges and you can drop it on your face nearly perfectly centered instantly, so the sweet spot is not an issue. However the very LARGE in focus area that you see while centered is excellent. You don't need to move your head around to see things clearly and you can just glace down or over at things. I've been EXTREMELY happy with my Index since I got it about a year ago.

I use my Index for a combination of room scale and sim use, so for me the excellent hand controllers and absolutely best hand tracking out there by a margin were important.

For purely racing sim use, I might be tempted to wait for the Reverb G2 since it inherits a lot of the excellent ergonomics from the Index, is less expensive and has very high resolution displays.

Good luck!

 

[Michael Curry]

I have no problems with ACC, using a Pimax, which is fantastic for racing. I do use a program that kills all shadows in ACC and really boosts framerate. Never had motion sickness. The wider field of view is a game-changer.

 

[ScreaminBejesus]

Hi Randy,
I had a lot of the same thoughts you describe when I decided to purchase the Valve Index in January. I'm about your age, also experience motion sickness in real life, and re-entered SIM racing in a similar context. The Index was very easy to get used to and delivered everything I expected of it. I had some reservations about mounting the external beacons, but ended up just setting them on some high shelves and they've performed flawlessly ever since. The visual experience is nowhere near the resolution of a gaming monitor, but the immersion more than makes up for it. If you are only going to use this for racing and not for any other types of game, you can skip the hand controllers. Some people say they also get by with only one beacon, but I can't speak to that since I got the kit with two included.
Stuart

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

I think even a regular 110 degree VR headset will give a significantly wider FOV than most single monitor setups assuming you can wear it correctly and get the lenses at the correct distance from your eye. I've just done a quick calc using this site (https://andyf.me/fovcalc.html) and to get even 100 degrees of dimensionally accurate FOV from a single monitor you'd need a 49" 32:9 screen around 50cm away from your face, so a pretty extreme monitor mounted right behind your wheel in most cases. That's also doesn't then take into account the additional FOV you get by being able to turn your head as you mentioned, so although wider is obviously always nice, I don't think standard ~110 degree headsets are as limiting as they're sometimes made out to be.

While you are correct in that the FOV isnt by any means bad even on the Rift S compared to a single screen, I think you might have your maths slightly wrong. You are comparing horizontal FOV of a monitor with the diagonal FOV of a Rift S.
The horizontal FOV on a Rift S is no more than 90 degrees.
Look at the screenshots i provided earlier in this thread, I looked into the Rift S (and my Pimax Artisan) and then took a screenshot which I cropped to match how much I could see inside the headset while keeping my head static.
I think you'll find that while it IS slightly larger than you'd get from a single screen, it's not a massive change.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

I have no problems with ACC, using a Pimax, which is fantastic for racing. I do use a program that kills all shadows in ACC and really boosts framerate. Never had motion sickness. The wider field of view is a game-changer.

Which Pimax do you have?
While I got ACC running ok-ish without the use of any 3rd party programs, I had some issues on for instance Bathurst where the trees close to the track would look very out of place, like the two images for each of my eye where rendered with an offset so they stuck out like a sore thumb (just the trees, nothing else).
It was incredibly distracting ><

 

[Rainman2020]

Also, all of those numbers are likely more achievable on all headsets except for the rift S with no ipd adjustment.
So if you are wide eyed like me, not only can it be a little blurry you may have even more tunnel vision which is probably why the S seemed like it had a noticeable amount less fov for me than the cv1.

Turns out my IPD is 64, which is exactly what the Rift S is made for, so that's not an issue for me at least.

 

[Michael Curry]

Which Pimax do you have?
While I got ACC running ok-ish without the use of any 3rd party programs, I had some issues on for instance Bathurst where the trees close to the track would look very out of place, like the two images for each of my eye where rendered with an offset so they stuck out like a sore thumb (just the trees, nothing else).
It was incredibly distracting ><

I have Pimax 5k+, was a backer. Hope to have my 8kx soon. Thers is a setting for reprojection that should help that issue. Modded tracks will always be an issue. I generally avoid them.

 

[Locoblade]

While you are correct in that the FOV isnt by any means bad even on the Rift S compared to a single screen, I think you might have your maths slightly wrong. You are comparing horizontal FOV of a monitor with the diagonal FOV of a Rift S.
The horizontal FOV on a Rift S is no more than 90 degrees.
Look at the screenshots i provided earlier in this thread, I looked into the Rift S (and my Pimax Artisan) and then took a screenshot which I cropped to match how much I could see inside the headset while keeping my head static.
I think you'll find that while it IS slightly larger than you'd get from a single screen, it's not a massive change.

Apologies I realise now I quoted you talking about the Rift S specifically whereas I was thinking headsets like the Reverb with ~110 horizontal as that's what OP seemed to be primarily comparing against the Index and having concerns about. I think maybe limited FOV in VR is more noticable to the naked eye because it literally feels like wearing blinkers whereas on a monitor you still have perhipheral vision even though it's not related to what's on screen.

To even get a genuine 90 degrees of horizontal FOV from a single monitor though takes a bit of doing without a 35" 21:9 and even then the calcs say it would need to be around 45cm away from your eyes which is about as close as you could possibly get whilst keeping it behind the wheel rim, unless you like driving like a nervous learner with your torso rubbing on the wheel. Easier to achieve with a 32:9 obviously but not many people have the space or money for one of those, a 35" 16:9 is going to give you about 75 degrees max and an average 32" or under will be less than that so still think there'd be a noticeable difference.

 

[Rainman2020]

This turned into the best thread i have found on which VR headset to buy for sim racing and also the best thread for motion sickness. This forum is fantastic!

I will likely wait for the 3000 series Nvidia cards and for the Reverb G2 to come out before putting things together...that gives me more time to do fun research and see how far this sim racing rabbit hole goes

I want a computer that will hold up for 5 years or so with the latest VR headset tech, but i can always upgrade the graphics card if needed (although i will need a good enough PSU (750W?) to drive the newer graphics cards. Can always upgrade my VR headset and sell the old one too without losing really much at all.

The idea of a motion simulator sounds awesome, but no way i can justify another $3K+ for that, already going to be into a sim rig that will be running about $3K for the wheel, pedals, shifter, rig itself + VR headset (not to mention a complete $2K upgrade on my 5 year old computer, so at 5K already).

I still lean towards wanting a Valve Index (if only due to the increased FOV, but also due to those awesome Index controllers for playing games like Half Life too), but if i can live with the decreased FOV and can wait a few months, i am sold on the Reverb G2 as my VR headset. It is basically the Index with a decreased FOV and worse controllers, and slightly worse tracking i would guess, and all for $400 less. I am completely out on the Rift S...will not be getting the Rift S, only between the Index and the Reverb G2 now. Hmmmm

Randy

 

[RCHeliguy]

The idea of a motion simulator sounds awesome, but no way i can justify another $3K+ for that, already going to be into a sim rig that will be running about $3K for the wheel, pedals, shifter, rig itself + VR headset (not to mention a complete $2K upgrade on my 5 year old computer, so at 5K already).

Sounds like you have a plan.

One observation I've noticed from a large number of people is that what they can justify changes over time. Even if you have something that works well, after a while you may want to try to improve things a bit. My rig has gone through many upgrades and if you told me where I was going to end up when I started, I would have asked what you were smoking.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

Edit: posted in wrong tab...

 

[5teveC457]

I am an example that adding motion can eliminate motion sickness completely, and am now sold on VR. I originally tried VR sim-racing 2 years ago with a Rift CV1 and no motion platform. I instantly appreciated the amount of immersion and really feeling like I was sitting in a car on the track. Unfortunately, I only was able to last about 5 minutes before I had severe motion sickness, which took me several hours to recover from. I ended up selling the CV1 shortly thereafter as the experience was so unpleasant for me, and I just couldn't see myself using it for simracing.

Fast forward 2 years later to today. I've been running the NLR motion v3+traction plus on my triple monitors, but have been itching to try VR again as I really want to experience the immersion that VR offers. I was super hesitant to try given my last experience, but ended up pre-ordering the Reverb G2 back in June anyways. Over the last few weeks I've really been wanting to give VR another go, and given the G2 won't be actually shipping until who knows when, I picked up a Rift S.

I was comprehensive at first, but jumped right in to give the Rift S a try. To my surprise, I had zero motion sickness! I was able to jump right in and drive for 30 minutes without even a hint of any motion sickness. I fully credit this experience to my motion platform, as it really makes me feel like I am moving down the track and apparently is tricking my brain to really believe it as well. On a scale from 1 to 10 of how easily I get motion sickness, I would rate myself a 9.5. I'm so glad I tried giving VR another shot, and really wanted to share my experience for others who are also prone to motion sickness. If all else fails, definitely try adding motion to your platform if your budget allows.

Now if HP would just hurry up and ship the Reverb G2 already..

 

[Michael Curry]

Which Pimax do you have?
While I got ACC running ok-ish without the use of any 3rd party programs, I had some issues on for instance Bathurst where the trees close to the track would look very out of place, like the two images for each of my eye where rendered with an offset so they stuck out like a sore thumb (just the trees, nothing else).
It was incredibly distracting ><

I have 5k+ with 8KX on the way with foveated render coming.

 

[metalnwood]

Tip for your rift S and motion, I had to have it all the way in and then rubber band to pull it in to my face, like another strap. a PITA but I found the rift S with its hing bounced far too much with my motion and made the image shake a lot more than it should.

 

[Rainman2020]

So, if i do get motion sick, i know another (very expensive!) way to fix it maybe. Good to know, had heard that elsewhere too and it makes sense. I did get an Emeterm, will take all natural dramamine made from Ginger also before VR, hoping that and taking it slow will get me thru any VR motion sickness.

Does a motion platform really feel like you are moving correctly like the car would?
Wouldn't something like the NLR motion platform that Barry in SRG uses be subject to breaking a LOT, squeaking, etc due to all the force and effort it has to do over and over moving the seat around.
Not sure i would even like moving around all over the place, may be distracting, have no idea.
And the price tag...ugh

 

[Rainman2020]

I am an example that adding motion can eliminate motion sickness completely, and am now sold on VR. I originally tried VR sim-racing 2 years ago with a Rift CV1 and no motion platform. I instantly appreciated the amount of immersion and really feeling like I was sitting in a car on the track. Unfortunately, I only was able to last about 5 minutes before I had severe motion sickness, which took me several hours to recover from. I ended up selling the CV1 shortly thereafter as the experience was so unpleasant for me, and I just couldn't see myself using it for simracing.

Fast forward 2 years later to today. I've been running the NLR motion v3+traction plus on my triple monitors, but have been itching to try VR again as I really want to experience the immersion that VR offers. I was super hesitant to try given my last experience, but ended up pre-ordering the Reverb G2 back in June anyways. Over the last few weeks I've really been wanting to give VR another go, and given the G2 won't be actually shipping until who knows when, I picked up a Rift S.

I was comprehensive at first, but jumped right in to give the Rift S a try. To my surprise, I had zero motion sickness! I was able to jump right in and drive for 30 minutes without even a hint of any motion sickness. I fully credit this experience to my motion platform, as it really makes me feel like I am moving down the track and apparently is tricking my brain to really believe it as well. On a scale from 1 to 10 of how easily I get motion sickness, I would rate myself a 9.5. I'm so glad I tried giving VR another shot, and really wanted to share my experience for others who are also prone to motion sickness. If all else fails, definitely try adding motion to your platform if your budget allows.

Now if HP would just hurry up and ship the Reverb G2 already..

I have heard lots of people say that they got motion sick in other headsets, especially the early ones like the CV1, and then it went away using the Index, which i am getting. So, hopefully, that will help also, especially if i can run it at 120hz, and should be able to a good deal of the time depending on the game if i play with the graphic settings

 

[Michael Curry]

This turned into the best thread i have found on which VR headset to buy for sim racing and also the best thread for motion sickness. This forum is fantastic!

I will likely wait for the 3000 series Nvidia cards and for the Reverb G2 to come out before putting things together...that gives me more time to do fun research and see how far this sim racing rabbit hole goes

I want a computer that will hold up for 5 years or so with the latest VR headset tech, but i can always upgrade the graphics card if needed (although i will need a good enough PSU (750W?) to drive the newer graphics cards. Can always upgrade my VR headset and sell the old one too without losing really much at all.

The idea of a motion simulator sounds awesome, but no way i can justify another $3K+ for that, already going to be into a sim rig that will be running about $3K for the wheel, pedals, shifter, rig itself + VR headset (not to mention a complete $2K upgrade on my 5 year old computer, so at 5K already).

I still lean towards wanting a Valve Index (if only due to the increased FOV, but also due to those awesome Index controllers for playing games like Half Life too), but if i can live with the decreased FOV and can wait a few months, i am sold on the Reverb G2 as my VR headset. It is basically the Index with a decreased FOV and worse controllers, and slightly worse tracking i would guess, and all for $400 less. I am completely out on the Rift S...will not be getting the Rift S, only between the Index and the Reverb G2 now. Hmmmm

Randy

My old lady says if I stau off real race tracks with my M3, Alpha and corvette, I can spend whatever I want on my sim racing hobby, so I do.