Valve Index or Oculus Rift S (and motion sickness)

[Rainman2020]

Hi, my name is Randy Flowers. 58 year old kid in Dallas Texas. This is my very first ever sim racing forum post! Sorry, it's a long post that has been building up for the past month! Thanks for the help in advance

About a month ago, i saw by mistake a Jimmy Broadbent video of him racing a 60s grand prix car around spa and he was wearing a VR headset, and i was instantly pulled into the sim racing rabbit hole! OH NO!!! My main desire is to get into sim racing using VR, and i have never yet used VR at all for anything.

I do get motion sick as a rule in life. I get sick in a car backseat, but not if i am holding onto the steering wheel and driving. I am super concerned that i will get motion sick and it will keep me from playing in VR. So, i am thinking of doing all the normal stuff, using a fan, doing it in short stints and stopping immediately when feeling sick, using a wrist band TENS unit thing like the Emeterm electrode stimulator, etc, but i am still concerned that it may be hard for me to 'get my VR legs'.

I am thinking of going straight for the Valve Index so that i can run at 120fps/hz and hopefully that will be my best chance of being able to handle VR and not get sick.

I found Jeff Ford at www.fegpc.net (who has built a ton of sim racing rigs), and he is helping me put my computer upgrade, rig and sim gear together and building it for me! He actually recommends the Oculus Rift S as his favorite VR headset, and he says that preventing motion sickness is much more about keeping the Rift S at a constant 80fps than it is about getting the fps up to 120fps. I would definitely rather spend only $400 on a Rift S if that will work great for me, but i have read forums that swear by the Valve Index as having solved their motion sickness issues (when they were coming from a Rift), and it seems like the superior headset for graphics/sound and comfort.

I know i need a computer that is capable of running either the Valve at a steady 120fps or the Rift S at a steady 80fps, and Jeff assures me that the following rig he is putting together will do that...it is:

i5-9600KF OC'd to 4.7-5.2 (he says done this way it is comparable to the i9-9900K for much less money, he adds the OC for free)
RTX 2070 Super (he will OC this also)
16 GB DDR4 (he will OC this also)

As a backup, if i do get motion sick with VR and just can't get past it, then i will be able to smoke a new 1440p/144hz 32 inch monitor i am also getting, so i can use that as my backup and still be able to Sim Race, but i WANT TO USE VR!

Note that i am wanting a really good VR resolution/graphics too and do want to be able to see the dash board numbers clearly, etc. I have also heard that the graphics are much better with the Valve, that the Rift S sound is terrible (do Rift S owners all play with separate headphones on?), and that the Valve is much more comfortable.

A final note is that i wear glasses (John Lennon types), and wondering how that will affect the Valve or the Rift S.

So...my questions are:

1) Which headset would you use between the Valve Index and Rift S and why?
2) Will using the Valve Index at 120fps be a big help to possible motion sickness compared to the Rift S at 80fps?
3) Will i actually be able to run the Valve Index at 120fps, or even the Rift S at 80fps, with the above basic computer rig?
4) How good will the graphics be on the Valve Index vs the Rift S (and will the above rig be able to run the graphics at good looking settings in VR and out of VR)?
4) Will i be able to wear John Lennon style glasses with both the Valve and Rift S just fine?

Thanks!

Randy

 

[Rainman2020]

Once i get it dailed in for myself (whichever headset).
How hard will it be for others to sit down and quickly find their sweet spot, adjust the lens, etc etc when i let others play with the VR headset?

 

[Rainman2020]

I had not heard about the new HP Reverb G2, will check it out. Also, the Primax runs me off being a Chinese developed product. I run the other way from the SimMagic steering wheel now out for the same reasoning.

 

[GagarynGaribaldi]

I saw the in depth review done by Gamer Muscle on the Index last night, and he pointed out the much smaller sweet spot on the Index vs the Rift S, causing you to lock the headset down tight once you find the smaller sweet spot (he also says once locked down to it, it was better than the Rift S). He also pointed out the god ray/glare issue in darker games, but racing is not dark (i doubt i will run night races much). It doesn't make sense that the maker of a Half Life game would develop a headset that struggled in dark conditions (Half Life is dark a lot). I doubt either of these two issues will make the Index not work well for me.

Not sure what the ' adjustable ipd' really means or how it affects things.

My leaning right now is Valve Index with the special lens (to avoid wearing glasses) insert, and to get only the headset and ONE tracking lighthouse (which will bring the cost down a lot). I can add controllers and another lighthouse if i ever want to play things like Half Life.

If i don't like the Index, i don't think it will be any issue getting my money back and going a different route. The same could be said for the Rift S though, i could try that one and hope to be able to save money, and then if i can't get past the motion sickness with it or didn't like the graphics or something, sell it and try the Index. The only issue with doing that sort of thing is if i went for the lens insert thing for $70 on either of them, that will be a cost i end up eating if i sell one and get a different one.

I have been looking at a lot of forums and this one is by far the best i think.

Randy

I'v never even noticed there is a "sweet spot" on the index - everything seems sharp to me. I suspect this is a very personal perception thing. IPD stands for inter pupillary distance - basically how far apart your eyes are. On the Rift S this is fixed at 63.5mm. On the Index, the screens for each eye can be slid apart as far as 70MM. My IPD is 71mm but is fine on Index set to 70mm. The Rift S is unusable for me due to the fixed IPD. This article suggests the Rift S is no good for around half of adults. https://uploadvr.com/data-suggests-oculus-rift-s-ipd-range-best-for-around-half-of-adults/

 

[Locoblade]

Not sure what the ' adjustable ipd' really means or how it affects things.

IPD is Inter Pupillary Distance, or how far your eyes are apart from each other. If you think back to when you ordered new glasses at the opticians they probably held a ruler of some sort on your forehead to measure your IPD, checking the frames you'd chosen position the lenses correctly for your eyes and also so they cut the lenses so the centre of the lens is positioned inline with the centre of your eye. VR Manual IPD adjustment does the same thing for the VR lenses, allows you to move the lenses further apart or closer together to match your IPD so the central sweet spot of the lens is aligned to the centre of each eye. Headsets with fixed IPD can do some tricks with the screens to partly compsensate for lack of adjustment but is generally considered inferior and can only compensate for a smaller range of users around the fixed point.

The best way I can describe IPD being incorrect in VR is if you take your regular glasses and shift them off your nose and to one side slightly so you're not looking through the centre of the lenses, what you see is kinda still clear but not really a single coherent 3d image from both eyes, each eye is seeing things from a slightly different perspective.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

Good explanations guys.
@Rainman20 if you have the prescription from your optician then it will state your ipd on it. If not you could call them and ask.
Is possible to measure yourself either by using a ruler and a mirror and there's an app at least on iPhone that have me quite accurate result compared to my prescription.

 

[jaynny]

Related, as pertains to motion sickness and VR, would one of these wristbands really work? I have read sim racing forum posts that swear they really helped them have no nausea when in VR.

EmeTerm Motion Sickness WristBand

EmeTerm is a safe and effective motion sickness bands that prevents and relieves nausea and vomiting induced by motion sickness (while in a car, a boat, or a plane) and morning sickness (during pregnancy) Feature: 【FDA Approved】: EmeTerm motion sickness bracelet provides physical therapy based...

www.emeterm.com

OR

Reliefband®

Reliefband® is drug free, non-drowsy, FDA cleared wearable technology for the prevention and treatment of nausea and vomiting associated with motion sickness, morning sickness, chemotherapy and as an adjunct to antiemetics in post surgery.

www.reliefband.com

I am probably going to order the Emeterm one, that is the one other forum posts had mentioned.

Randy

I have the Emeterm one, it works...I used to get sick just thinking about it but now I can complete a race and even crash....Based on the time im doing vr, the worse was just a slight weird but that when i play in vr like multiple hours

 

[Locoblade]

Once i get it dailed in for myself (whichever headset).
How hard will it be for others to sit down and quickly find their sweet spot, adjust the lens, etc etc when i let others play with the VR headset?

Not sure if you've got prescription lenses fitted how easy they'll be to remove but other than that its only a matter of adjusting the headband whilst positioning it on your head whilst the view is clear, then moving the IPD slider or wheel to adjust it like you would focus a pair of binoculars, so not long once you've done it a couple of times.

 

[Rainman2020]

This thread alone may be the thing that finally gets me to go for the Index right out of the gate, without trying the rift s first. Pretty convincing feedback...


Randy

 

[Rainman2020]

I have the Emeterm one, it works...I used to get sick just thinking about it but now I can complete a race and even crash....Based on the time im doing vr, the worse was just a slight weird but that when i play in vr like multiple hours

Sounds like i will for sure get one of these assuming i do end up getting some VR sickness, if that fixes it, it is well worth the $100. Also, like the idea of getting the special lens for people with glasses for another $70

Randy

 

[Rainman2020]

I'v never even noticed there is a "sweet spot" on the index - everything seems sharp to me. I suspect this is a very personal perception thing. IPD stands for inter pupillary distance - basically how far apart your eyes are. On the Rift S this is fixed at 63.5mm. On the Index, the screens for each eye can be slid apart as far as 70MM. My IPD is 71mm but is fine on Index set to 70mm. The Rift S is unusable for me due to the fixed IPD. This article suggests the Rift S is no good for around half of adults. https://uploadvr.com/data-suggests-oculus-rift-s-ipd-range-best-for-around-half-of-adults/

The poor sweet spot is probably my biggest concern about the Index, so that is great to hear

Randy

 

[Rainman2020]

Wow! Thanks for yall's comments about waiting for the HP Reverb G2! I think i found my headset. The fact that Valve was heavily involved is something i really like, and the better resolution will be good for racing games, and i would rather not deal with base stations. If i ever play something like Half Life though, those Valve controllers are so much nicer.

But, if i use it primarily for racing, i think that it will be fine, and i think most racing games, i will have trouble holding 120hz/fps but won't so much with 90fps, and guessing that that will be enough to help with motion sickness, so long as i keep at a constant 90fps. The FOV sounds very similar to the Rift S, which will be fine for racing games i think (feeling of being in a helmet)

I am wondering if i can even get a hold of one after they come out, surely there is going to be a rush on them when they release, plus should i worry that they may be buggy and need 6 months or so to sort them out (i.e. don't get one of the first ones? I don't want to wait though that long.

Also, i wonder how long it would take for the special lenses (so that you don't have to wear glasses while playing) to be developed for a new headset like the G2? Hopefully, i could use glasses with it until they came up with a lens to fit the G2

This video sold me on waiting for the Reverb G2.

Randy

 

[Locoblade]

The Reverb G2 has a pre-order system that's already live in the US, so if you want one early doors get on that list. Don't forget the G2 will be a higher resolution than the Index though, so although it's only 90hz compared to 120hz, it will probably need an equally if not more powerful card to drive it. GeekyDeaks on here has a Reverb G1 that has the same resolution as the G2 though and manages to run that OK on an RTX 2060 (non Super) albeit with reduced settings I think, so a 2070 Super that's ~25% faster and very similar speed to a 1080Ti should be OK for most things (It's what I've got and I intend to get a G2 when they're released), although it may still need things turning down somewhat with certain titles.

Don't bank on gaining too much out of overclocking the card though, 5% improvements are around the norm so you're not going to turn a 2070S into a something with 2080Ti performance with an OC. If you haven't committed to the machine being built yet and can wait a couple of months it would be worth seeing what the next gen NVidia and AMD cards deliver as the leaks etc suggest they should be out by the autumn and could be a big step forward. Likewise speak with your builder about the recently released 10th gen Intel CPUs rather than the 9600k that's just going end of life, and to consider Gen 3 Ryzen AMD as well, or Gen 4 when it arrives in a few months if you're not buying imminently.

 

[GagarynGaribaldi]

^ This good advice - I'd definitely investigate to establish exactly when the new cards will be released, and if you can, it may be worth waiting. Even if new cards are not a huge improvement (although they may be) there will almost certainly be price cuts on current gen cards.

 

[Rainman2020]

The Reverb G2 has a pre-order system that's already live in the US, so if you want one early doors get on that list. Don't forget the G2 will be a higher resolution than the Index though, so although it's only 90hz compared to 120hz, it will probably need an equally if not more powerful card to drive it. GeekyDeaks on here has a Reverb G1 that has the same resolution as the G2 though and manages to run that OK on an RTX 2060 (non Super) albeit with reduced settings I think, so a 2070 Super that's ~25% faster and very similar speed to a 1080Ti should be OK for most things (It's what I've got and I intend to get a G2 when they're released), although it may still need things turning down somewhat with certain titles.

Don't bank on gaining too much out of overclocking the card though, 5% improvements are around the norm so you're not going to turn a 2070S into a something with 2080Ti performance with an OC. If you haven't committed to the machine being built yet and can wait a couple of months it would be worth seeing what the next gen NVidia and AMD cards deliver as the leaks etc suggest they should be out by the autumn and could be a big step forward. Likewise speak with your builder about the recently released 10th gen Intel CPUs rather than the 9600k that's just going end of life, and to consider Gen 3 Ryzen AMD as well, or Gen 4 when it arrives in a few months if you're not buying imminently.

My PC builder (Jeff Ford) says that the main thing regarding VR is the CPU, not the GPU, but i am sure the GPU figures in a ton too. Maybe i should go for the 2080 super and OC that instead, hmmm. It is another $200, and the total price of my computer upgrade + sim racing + VR is adding up fast already!

I will investigate all the new releases coming with both intel, AMD and with the graphic cards too, hadn't really looked at that at all yet.

I wonder how long it will take them to actually release the G2 in the fall (early fall, late fall?) and if it will have a lot of teething issues right after it releases (i always stay away from initial releases as a rule due to the mfg needing time to work out the kinks)

Randy

 

[Rainman2020]

I think my biggest issue with the G2 (or the Rift S) idea (other than possible motion sickness due to lower fps than 120fps), is the smaller FOV.

How big a deal is it that the G2 will have a Rift S (or HP reverb G1) FOV rather than the bigger FOV of the Index?

Randy

 

[Locoblade]

Be careful you don't fall into the trap of overthinking things

VR does load up the CPU more than playing on a monitor but the GPU is still vitally important and probably still works harder driving even a Rift S than it would a standard 1440p monitor, as the overall resolution is the same (2880 x 1440) but the refresh rate is higher than a 60hz monitor and often you "supersample" a VR feed to improve image quality, which effectively means rendering addtional pixels outside of the native resolution thus making the card work harder.

The 2070S to 2080S performance gain is only about 10% on average so not massive for a fairly significant additional outlay, but its undoubtedly quicker so if you can afford it and want the machine today then go for it. I'll refer back to my previous comment about the next gen 30xx series NVidia cards that will be coming out in a few months though as they may be worth the wait, there's even unsubstantiated rumours that 30xx "mid range" cards in the $400-500 price bracket could have 2080Ti matching performance which would be amazing!

I've not tried a wide FOV headset to compare so there's quite possibly an element of "don't know what you're missing", but personally I don't find the ~110 degree FOV of my current Samsung Odyssey (similar FOV to Rift/Reverb etc) particularly limiting for sim racing, it still feels very immersive and the view doesn't feel restrictive, probably no worse than what you'd have with a full face helmet on in a real car. With a really wide FOV headset (say Pimax at nearly 180 degrees) you probably would have more spatial awareness of what's going on alongside you in the heat of battle but you can mitigate that with plugins (Crewchief, Helicorsa etc) if you find its an issue, and in the case of the Index, it's only 10 degrees wider either side than the Rift/Reverb so I can't imagine perhipheral vision would be night and day different, but could be wrong.

If you're unsure about what headset to get but want to get a machine immediately then what may be worth doing is similar to what I've done recently and buy a cheap secondhand headset to use over the next 6 months, then make a decision about the Reverb G2 or anything else that comes to market in the autumn.

 

[Rainman2020]

Be careful you don't fall into the trap of overthinking things

Good advice there...hard to not do though when you are completely upgrading your 6 year old computer to deal with VR and 1440p/144hz monitor, and also at the same time getting into VR the first time and into sim racing the first time, so buying a lot all within a short period of time.

I was just reading today about the new Nvidia 3000 cards about to come out, and that may be worth waiting for, at least to drive the prices down on a 2070 super for example. I am probably going to wait on the G2 headset, but may do the 'buy a Rift S for now, and see if it is plenty for me without causing motion sickness that i can't get past, and then sell it and get a G2 this Christmas or so.' Or more probably, i will just build the computer now (or just after the new Nvidia cards come out in September (?)), and then just use my new computer and sim gear and only drive on the new 1440p/144hz monitor i am getting when i get the new computer.

The G2 is out this 'fall', but that could mean November or something, so worst case, i just play on a single 32 inch monitor until then.

I have to say i really enjoy the process of watching youtube videos, reading forums, reading articles, etc and then configuring the PC, VR and Sim Racing hardware that i want to buy. It is a fun rabbit hole, but a very deep one when you are getting all of it for the first time!

Randy

 

[metalnwood]

You can always wait and never buy anything but it is sometimes a good thing to do..

I have a 1080ti and am waiting for the 3000. Jeffrey is right that the games are not always gpu bound and the cpu can be more important but make no mistake with the right cpu you can use all of that GPU. There is no doubt that a 2080ti will give me more performance than my 1080ti but the gains don't seem worth it with the 3000 so close. I have been holding out for a while as the dates seem to have kept slipping there.

Of course it may come out and be at a price that makes me smack my head and I stick with my 1080ti for a bit but knowing the effect of the gpu - especially if you are looking at something like a G2 with it's resolution I would be holding out for the best card as well.. worse case it costs a fortune and knocks down the price of the 2080ti to be the best bet at the time.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

To me FOV makes a big difference, the Rift S feels like looking through binoculars.
Do keep in mind that since the headset moves with your head, the lesser FOV of the Rift S (which is still about on par with a single screen) isn't as limiting as it might sound, as you can quickly throw a peek to the sides and see cars side by side with you or in the side mirrors. The biggest difference will be added peripheral vision, which gives a greater immersion and sense of speed, and you'll "see" that car coming up beside you through your peripheral vision without having to rotate your head, so it adds to your spatial awareness.

There's a few things to keep in mind when looking at the FOV of headsets.
There's horizontal FOV, vertical FOV and diagonal FOV. Often when you see a FOV number listed it will be the diagonal FOV.
The FOV will change depending on how close you put the lenses / screens to your eyes, the closer you can get the higher the FOV you will have.
Some approximate FOV numbers I've seen thrown about around the webs:
Rift S - 90° horizontal FOV - 110° diagonal FOV
Reverb G1/G2 - ? horizontal FOV - 114° diagonal FOV
Index - 115° horizontal FOV - 135° diagonal FOV
Pimax Artisan - 140° horizontal FOV - 170° diagonal FOV

Edit: I just want to emphasise that these numbers are not scientifically measured numbers, only Pimax and HP have stated actual numbers for their headsets to my knowledge, and they are "theoretical max" numbers since they depend on the distance between eye and screen.

 

[metalnwood]

Also, all of those numbers are likely more achievable on all headsets except for the rift S with no ipd adjustment.
So if you are wide eyed like me, not only can it be a little blurry you may have even more tunnel vision which is probably why the S seemed like it had a noticeable amount less fov for me than the cv1.