Valtteri Bottas - World Championship Challenger or Able Support Act?

[Tobiman]

At the end of the 2007 season Alonso and Hamilton were equal on points. If that means that he whipped Alonso, then we have a different understanding of what that actually means. Hamilton ended up in second position because he had one second place more - so they were both equal on the number of wins aswell.

Despite Hamilton having big talent without any question, I consider Bottas to be on the same level this year and I don't see a reason why he should act as a support driver. And not just because Hamilton got an unreliable car, but for the fact that Bottas has beaten Hamilton on track for the victory two times so far with Hamilton simply being unable to setup his car and to find the speed. If you consider the colissions with Kimi, you know where both Fins lost their ground in the current fight for the title, so at the end Hamilton and Bottas had their fair share of bad luck. Hamilton might be the quicker driver when you look at the sheer speed, but we all know that this isn't everything.

Fair share of bad luck? lol... Baku and Austria were Hamilton's to lose. Hamilton's engineer's job is to make sure he has a reliable setup for the race weekend but ended up messing him up in Russia and Monaco with the rear consistently losing grip mid corner.

If Mercedes don't win the driver's championship, they only have themselves to blame.

 

[Celestiale]

What info are you using to back-up such a statement? Your gut feeling? lol. All those three you mentioned are top notch drivers. There's no doubting that but If we are to go by past performances, you'd be very wrong. Verstappen is out-qualifying Ricciardo consistently now and the same Ricciardo smashed Vettel.

Who has had a more reliable season than Hamilton so far. A more reliable & consistent car would have seen Hamilton at least on the podium for monaco and wins in Baku and Austria.

No, no gut feeling. Performance. Last season he got beaten by a driver nowhere near top 10 in talent, this season he is beaten so far by a driver in a worse car, and almost matched by a driver new in the same car, who wasn't particularly known as one of the more talented of the grid (compared to Ricciardo, Vettel, Verstappen, Perez, Alonso etc.). Possible that he was a big deal 10 years ago, maybe he was the best driver back then. But in 10 years a lot happens, the differences between top drivers are still margins, and even a slight decrease in performance from a personal view might result in getting bested by the best drivers. I see nothing in recent years that might suggest that Hamilton is anywhere near the best 3 or 4 drivers in F1.

 

[snyperal]

Hamilton is the nuts. Bottas is second fiddle, but only for this season I think.

Hamilton could've had Alonso as a team mate.... That would've been great.

In my opinion it's Hamilton, verstappen, vettel alonso.

They are natural Hunter killer thoroughbred racing drivers. Maybe verstappen needs to mature a bit, but I don't think it'll be too long.

 

[hitm4k3r]

Fair share of bad luck? lol... Baku and Austria were Hamilton's to lose. Hamilton's engineer's job is to make sure he has a reliable setup for the race weekend but ended up messing him up in Russia and Monaco with the rear consistently losing grip mid corner.

If Mercedes don't win the driver's championship, they only have themselves to blame.

If you really think, that it is not the drivers job but only the the job of his engineer to work on the setup then you have no idea what you are talking about and a strange understanding of the sport. It is one thing to be quick, but it takes alot more than that. Setting up the car is a team effort, involving educated feedback from the driver and understanding of what is actually happening with the car. That Hamilton messed up in Sochi, Austria and Monaco is as much on him as it is on his engineer and it is not even a secret that Hamilton hates testing and practicing. So much about that.

Baku was bad luck for Hamilton, but as allready said - both drivers were unlucky in a few occasions allready and it equals out.

 

[samcar304]

At the end of the 2007 season Alonso and Hamilton were equal on points. If that means that he whipped Alonso, then we have a different understanding of what that actually means. Hamilton ended up in second position because he had one second place more - so they were both equal on the number of wins aswell.

Yeah, I over embellished that last remark a bit lol, I still think over the course of the season he Outperformed Fernando though. I'd have to watch the season review dvd i have to properly give a judgement but that's how I remember it.

 

[samcar304]

Verstappen is out-qualifying Ricciardo consistently now and the same Ricciardo smashed Vettel..

Drivers do have off seasons you know... Vettel did not have a great 2014 and was beaten by Ricciardo, Ricciardo did not have a good 2015 and was beaten by Kvyat. Do people say Kvyat is better than Ricciardo? Button beat Hamilton in 2011... Do people say Button is better than Hamilton? All sports people go through phases of winning and losing, Tennis stars get knocked out early in competitions by "no names", Top goal scorers in Football can't find the net during a season and Top racing drivers get beaten. To judge someone on their one negative season is a bit harsh...

 

[wombat999]

Bottas is an analytical and very fast driver who is definitely a WDC prospect.
Hamilton thinks he is Formula One's 'Michael Jackson'.
Mercedes could (IMHO) care less who wins the title as long as they collect the Constructors Pot and one of their drivers becomes WDC.
Actually, if (just 'if') Bottas were to beat Hamilton it might give MB an excuse to reduce Louise' exorbitant financial demands .........

 

[LeSunTzu]

Hamilton thinks he is Formula One's 'Michael Jackson'.

I don't know if he actually thinks that way but he would have more than one good reason for that ^^

 

[Kasti]

The biggest problem for Bottas seems to me not Hamilton, but Nikki Lauda. Who transformed in the last years to LH`s big daddy and fan nr. 1, loosing his neutral, clear sight on things. He will do everything to insure LH gets the WDC, and he is the boss. The only way to stop Nikki, is Ferrari or Red Bull drivers will win.

 

[ThatRacingGuy]

My guess is he will be a serious contender for the WDC, While Hamilton and Vettel keep fist fighting and "hating" each other, Bottas will sneek under the radar and get those points in the bank.

 

[Tobiman]

No, no gut feeling. Performance. Last season he got beaten by a driver nowhere near top 10 in talent, this season he is beaten so far by a driver in a worse car, and almost matched by a driver new in the same car, who wasn't particularly known as one of the more talented of the grid (compared to Ricciardo, Vettel, Verstappen, Perez, Alonso etc.). Possible that he was a big deal 10 years ago, maybe he was the best driver back then. But in 10 years a lot happens, the differences between top drivers are still margins, and even a slight decrease in performance from a personal view might result in getting bested by the best drivers. I see nothing in recent years that might suggest that Hamilton is anywhere near the best 3 or 4 drivers in F1.

How exactly was Hamilton matched by Nico Rosberg in 2016? Nico could go flat out all season while Hamilton had to worry about reliability every other race. Yet, Hamilton still had more poles and more wins. I don't think we watched the same F1 season last year because anyone who did wouldn't utter such a statement unless you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

 

[Tobiman]

If you really think, that it is not the drivers job but only the the job of his engineer to work on the setup then you have no idea what you are talking about and a strange understanding of the sport. It is one thing to be quick, but it takes alot more than that. Setting up the car is a team effort, involving educated feedback from the driver and understanding of what is actually happening with the car. That Hamilton messed up in Sochi, Austria and Monaco is as much on him as it is on his engineer and it is not even a secret that Hamilton hates testing and practicing. So much about that.

Baku was bad luck for Hamilton, but as allready said - both drivers were unlucky in a few occasions allready and it equals out.

I highly doubt Hamilton's problem is an inability to give educated feedback to his engineers. These guys are spending a lot of money on high-end vehicle dynamic simulators that will always come up with a default setup with which the engineers tweak to suit the driver.
If the engineers send their driver out on a ridiculous setup like in Sochi or Monaco, I don't know how Hamilton is to blame for any of that. Toto even admitted that the team let Hamilton down.

To quote, "My opinion is Lewis has had all the bad luck that you can have," said Wolff.
"We've let him down with the headrest and we've let him down with the gearbox and now it's about time to fight back and hopefully that's going to happen at Silverstone."

 

[Patrik Saxen]

I've been really surprised by the performance of Bottas, tbh didn't expect him to have any chance against Lewis, but now with a bit of luck and continuing to improve with the car he could have a shot at the title.

 

[Jim Layee]

After seeing the Channel 4 (UK) interview with Toto I'd put good money on Bottas' seat being safe for a good while and very optimistic that he'll be given plenty of backing for a title chance.

 

[mikhail000]

Not every team is Ferrari.

Mercedes has the title in the pocket since Raikkonen's races keep being ruined by phony dubious strategies again and again. They have no reason whatsoever to treat Bottas like his unfortunate fellow citizen.

But then we wouldn't get pure gold like this...

 

[hitm4k3r]

I highly doubt Hamilton's problem is an inability to give educated feedback to his engineers. These guys are spending a lot of money on high-end vehicle dynamic simulators that will always come up with a default setup with which the engineers tweak to suit the driver.
If the engineers send their driver out on a ridiculous setup like in Sochi or Monaco, I don't know how Hamilton is to blame for any of that. Toto even admitted that the team let Hamilton down.

To quote, "My opinion is Lewis has had all the bad luck that you can have," said Wolff.
"We've let him down with the headrest and we've let him down with the gearbox and now it's about time to fight back and hopefully that's going to happen at Silverstone."

I am not arguing that Hamilton had no bad luck - far from it. But in the three races that I mentioned he was clearly not on the same pace as Bottas and Vettel - that's 3 out of 9 so 1/3. Vettel and Bottas were in the top 3 in 7 out of 9 races, Lewis 5 times. The setback by the gear box change was one thing, but at the end of the weekend he still "only " qualified behind Bottas and Vettel and wasn't that strong in the race either, after he was past the two Force India. He even struggled to overtake Kimi despite him having problems with KERS. Place 3 or 4 was the maximum at Austria. In Baku I would have expected him to fight back similar to Bottas with the pace that he had earlier in the race, but despite DRS and that long straight he never managed to get even close to Vettel. So at the end of the day he had bad luck two times (headrest and gearbox), while Bottas had one DNF and and a first lap crash at Baku - so basicly equal.

I also don't think that you should read too much into the "educated feedback" bit. What I meant is, that he is not as analytical as Vettel, Rosberg or even Bottas and that's something that fires back when you are competing at this level at one point or another especialy against a workaholic like Vettel. Best example are the pre-season tire tests: Vettel decided to drive roughly 1000 km while Hamilton and Mercedes decided that 50 should be good enough, with Hamilton moaning about the pre season tests overall (again Vettel driving the longest distance throughout all test days).

Next race he might be back up front again, but at the end of the year you have to be consistent. That Lewis has twice as many wins as Bottas but one less DNF and is still only 15 points in front of him, should clearly tell you something.

 

[Tobiman]

I am not arguing that Hamilton had no bad luck - far from it. But in the three races that I mentioned he was clearly not on the same pace as Bottas and Vettel - that's 3 out of 9 so 1/3. Vettel and Bottas were in the top 3 in 7 out of 9 races, Lewis 5 times. The setback by the gear box change was one thing, but at the end of the weekend he still "only " qualified behind Bottas and Vettel and wasn't that strong in the race either, after he was past the two Force India. He even struggled to overtake Kimi despite him having problems with KERS. Place 3 or 4 was the maximum at Austria. In Baku I would have expected him to fight back similar to Bottas with the pace that he had earlier in the race, but despite DRS and that long straight he never managed to get even close to Vettel. So at the end of the day he had bad luck two times (headrest and gearbox), while Bottas had one DNF and and a first lap crash at Baku - so basicly equal.

I also don't think that you should read too much into the "educated feedback" bit. What I meant is, that he is not as analytical as Vettel, Rosberg or even Bottas and that's something that fires back when you are competing at this level at one point or another especialy against a workaholic like Vettel. Best example are the pre-season tire tests: Vettel decided to drive roughly 1000 km while Hamilton and Mercedes decided that 50 should be good enough, with Hamilton moaning about the pre season tests overall (again Vettel driving the longest distance throughout all test days).

Next race he might be back up front again, but at the end of the year you have to be consistent. That Lewis has twice as many wins as Bottas but one less DNF and is still only 15 points in front of him, should clearly tell you something.

Must be really convenient being as ignorant as you. Lewis's car was pretty much un-driveable at the limit in Sochi and Monaco. You wouldn't know that because obviously we weren't watching the same race. Getting flagged down during qualifying in Monaco was also a convenient omission.
In Baku, Bottas got extremely lucky due to the safety car while it robbed Hamilton of his lead in the race.
I remember Hamilton setting the fastest lap in Austria so I don't know where you received information that he was clearly not in the same pace... Bottas, on the other hand, was able to overtake Kimi because of the error he made coming out of T2 and on worn tires. He wasn't a challenge to Bottas in any capacity on fresher tires.

I'd like to think there's a clear difference between being analytical and being a hardworker inside or outside the cockpit. Are you sure you aren't mixing both up? Analysis entails collecting data and using logical reasoning to solve problems. Vettel and Rosberg's analytic nature didn't save them from tire blowouts in 2015. You'd think the extensive tire testing Ferrari did earlier would have prevented mr analytical from having a catastrophic failure. Hamilton had no such issue although he sustained one the year before. Not that it even matters because the engineers should have that information anyway. It's their job to analyse that sort of thing and relay it to the driver. Test drivers are capable of performing the required tire tests to give the team the data needed.

 

[LeSunTzu]

It is obvious you cannot be three times world champion in two different teams without working as hard as necessary. People will always call Hamilton lazy anyway, just like football "fans" will always call lazy players like Özil and Benzema, even when confronted with all facts showing they work as hard as others. That is the just the way it is.

 

[hitm4k3r]

I never called Hamilton lazy, even if he is in comparison with the likes of Vettel. And that's not just my imagination but hard facts and statements by Mr. Hamilton and Mercedes so if just stating hard facts is being ignorant then there is no point to further discuss anything.

You guys can try to ignore anything you want and find excuses, why a certain English man was not quick enough in three races - but it will not change the fact that he hasn't got more badluck than other drivers. Two of the three titles that he's got were influenced by the bad luck of other drivers btw, but I am sure Hamliton fans with their rose tinted glasses will just try to ingore that. If you want to know what badluck is, check Verstappen's or Kimi's record.

 

[samcar304]

I never called Hamilton lazy, even if he is in comparison with the likes of Vettel. And that's not just my imagination but hard facts and statements by Mr. Hamilton and Mercedes so if just stating hard facts is being ignorant then there is no point to further discuss anything.

You guys can try to ignore anything you want and find excuses, why a certain English man was not quick enough in three races - but it will not change the fact that he hasn't got more badluck than other drivers. Two of the three titles that he's got were influenced by the bad luck of other drivers btw, but I am sure Hamliton fans with their rose tinted glasses will just try to ingore that. If you want to know what badluck is, check Verstappen's or Kimi's record.

I find a lot of people forget the 2008 title was helped by Massa's engine failing in Hungary, The fuel hose in singapore and how could we forget Glock... At the time i was elated because my favourite driver had won the WDC. But looking back he was kinda lucky to win it.