TT Isle of Man - The Game

[CC]

the physics are awfull.
based on WRC 6 engine (https://i.imgur.com/9VF4R1M.png)
this game is based on a 4 wheel game engine, and after today's discussions in here on how the bike feels like it's handling like a car, I decided it was time to do some digging and put my modding head back on and opened up some game files .................................... could someone please explain to me why the handling files for John McGuinness's bike has settings for ..........Front Left Wheel ........... Front Right Wheel .................... Rear Left Wheel ...............and Rear Right Wheel ................. in a Motorcycle racing game ? please tell me.


https://i.imgur.com/jllVGVm.png

(from steam)

I believe that is how they generate the physics each side of the tires has its own rules and slip angle, its not 1 single surface as the tread is quite complex with angles so they divide it equal each side to generate slip, not really correct either way, not when comparing to say rf2 physics engine which is really complex,
and again with games if they create rules inside physics it takes 10000,s of lines of code, they understand which code works under loads for physics so again its really common to see studios with multiple games released to have referenced items from previous titles, they are simply reusing the values they know work, nothing to really be worried about in my opinion its just settings that give values the name of the settings means nothing to how the value reacts.

 

[vee10]

Sidecars are drivable if you just pretend it's a car. Then it kind of works. Still very tricky though.

 

[Nico_Sause]

btw .. motorcycle play are rare - so this game should be playable for everyone (a mix of "sim" and arcade) makes fun.. A good motorcycle since SBK (which has been a challenge in its time - and too difficult / complex for the masses)

 

[Tylda]

Meanwhile we have Milestone. A company who clearly over the last few years are deliberately and knowingly, seemingly, dumbing down their motorcycle racing games (in terms of their adopted physics parameters and desired handling model) to suit younger players (aka "kids") and "mainstream" casual gamers alike. Milestone have not advanced their physics model they have regressed it to the point that many experienced online players are walking away from their latest games, eSports notwithstanding. Milestone do not even have (so far) a working tyre wear/grip algorithm and still have a "lean angle limiter" built into their core physics engine. So no "low-sides" unless on the front brake and no tyre management in either of their games..

In MotoGP17 you have tire wear and try to compare Ride 1 physics to MotoGP17 physycs. MotoGP have a lot better physics. This engine had a lot of upgrades and I think they made a new physic engine for MotoGP18 so don't say that Milestone stays in one place.

 

[Andy_J]

In MotoGP17 you have tire wear and try to compare Ride 1 physics to MotoGP17 physycs. MotoGP have a lot better physics. This engine had a lot of upgrades and I think they made a new physic engine for MotoGP18 so don't say that Milestone stays in one place.

You have disagreed with my posts, you have disagreed with girlracertracey's posts. Which part of what we have said do you disagree with? Try and answer subjectively and without being a childish fanboy.
Thank you.

 

[Ayem22]

To be honest what you are saying is hardly revelatory is it? I think we all strongly suspected this was the case.. I personally didn't think for a moment that Kylotonn had made a new motorcycle game engine from scratch..

The question always was how well could Kylotonn's WRC game engine and physics model be adapted for use over the IOM TT Mountain course? At least that was the question that kept occurring to me anyway in the run-up to the game being released..

Is the handling of the bikes in its entirety awful? As bad as say motogp 9/10 by Capcom?

I would say no. Far from it. Concerns (some might justifiably say serious concerns) re. the behaviour of the rear end when it comes round on you on the brakes or when you overstep the "limit" generally notwithstanding.. For me until the rear let's go the general "feel" and "poise" of the bikes round the bumpy IOM TT course feels, for a mainstream game, pretty good. Direction changes at speed and the feel you get from the bike sweeping through the high speed sections of the course feel convincing. The bikes feel "alive" for me in this respect. So for me that's a plus. In this particular respect it reminds me of the feel racing round the mini IOM TT course on the old but venerable gp500 game by Melbourne House. But yes things in the physics in TT IOM are missing if you make comparisons to gp500. "Low-sides" on a cold or worn front tyre heading out of Douglas from a standing start being one on them..

So for sure the handling in TT IOM is not perfect. In an ideal world Kylotonn would have built a new motorcycle game engine from scratch. But they didn't. It's not a perfect world..

Meanwhile we have Milestone. A company who clearly over the last few years are deliberately and knowingly, seemingly, dumbing down their motorcycle racing games (in terms of their adopted physics parameters and desired handling model) to suit younger players (aka "kids") and "mainstream" casual gamers alike. Milestone have not advanced their physics model they have regressed it to the point that many experienced online players are walking away from their latest games, eSports notwithstanding. Milestone do not even have (so far) a working tyre wear/grip algorithm and still have a "lean angle limiter" built into their core physics engine. So no "low-sides" unless on the front brake and no tyre management in either of their games..

Not good either really is it?

Do I wish that Milestone had made the IOM TT game using the same "vanilla" physics and handling model as RIDE 2? Tbh personally I'm rather glad they didn't.. as I think I would have got bored of it pretty quickly..

Everyone to their own. But it has to be said TT IOM is something different.

As Andy said race it more like you would approach it it in real life from fork / helmet cam and see a crash as a DNF or a trip to Noble's hospital and it begins to make more sense. Race it like an arcade game and it doesn't..

That's the alternative opinion on this one for what it's worth anyway.

i prefer ths simple good physic from Milestone than the wrong awfull physics scratched from cars from Kylotonn.
And we all know that you will buy Mgp18 and ride 3 and you will forget TT game.

 

[girlracerTracey]

In MotoGP17 you have tire wear and try to compare Ride 1 physics to MotoGP17 physycs. MotoGP have a lot better physics. This engine had a lot of upgrades and I think they made a new physic engine for MotoGP18 so don't say that Milestone stays in one place.

I am not not saying Milestone and their motogp games has been standing still in one place. Myself and many others, including many experienced online racers, are saying the motogp series has actually been heading backwards.. In terms of the level of challenge provided by the physics and handling model. That's why so many experienced and very fast players have walked away from the series following the release of motogp 17. That's why so many of the active and successful online motogp racing leagues have folded. I know players who have raced online for years on the SBK and motogp games who have turned their back on Milestone and are now racing on four wheels on Assetto Corsa and Project CARS. It's ironic..when we were racing on motogp15 we were hoping that Milestone would improve and enhance the physics and handling. Head it more in the direction of a "simulation". Instead Milestone moved it in the opposite direction.. ABS on the front brake on a motogp bike? In motogp 17 you have it.. Grippy grass and off track terrain? Yep, it's there too..with no option to turn it off. etc. etc. and so forth.

Tyre wear? Since motogp13 Milestone have yet to successfully conjure up a convincing and realistic tyre wear / grip algorithm . Same goes for motogp17.

It's a very sad story all in all and the fear is that with motogp 18 it is quite possible that Milestone may choose to make it even more "accessible" to mainstream and inexperienced "casual" players. Who knows?

This is the reason I think for the popularity of Dyego's and Giovane's physics mods. These mods make both motogp17 and RIDE 2 challenging and interesting again.

Here's a quote from a guy who is very fast on these games and has won online championships:

"It’s a shame that eSports came along otherwise I think we’d be playing the old games. I still enjoy the buzz of riding a bike, but it’s stunning how dull it is now I’m used to Super Standard Dumbed down GP17. 18 looks even dumber. Everything nowadays is done for the casuals, everything is about money... it’s disappointing. Yesterday I set a good time around Austin on GP17, I might upload the lap, but the stupid thing about it is the lap itself isn’t that great, all the time came from me "dropping" the front a few times, it’s pathetic."

In my honest opinion what Milestone's motogp and RIDE series needs is a higher level "Simulation" physics mode that would test the skills of the more experienced players.

 

[Tylda]

Sadly we don't have something like rFactor or Asetto Corsa for motorbikes but at least we have something. I think that 18 will be more simulation than arcade. They scanned all tracks and rider movement looks a lot more realistic than in 17.

 

[Tylda]

You have disagreed with my posts, you have disagreed with girlracertracey's posts. Which part of what we have said do you disagree with? Try and answer subjectively and without being a childish fanboy.
Thank you.

I disagreed with your and girlracer first comment because you still think that TT physics are good even when you know that isn't and I just disagree with word that "bike feels alive". For me is no way near alive bike but something beetwen soapbox cart and bus. Your argument that "you must drive on 80% instead 120%" is nothing more than justifying bad physics for me. And no, I'm not fanboy. I can see bad sides and good sides of both TT, Ride or MotoGP games. I can see that TT game have pretty nice recreated tracks and bikes but have bad physics. I can see that Ride or MotoGP games have arcadey physics but at least this games tries to recreate feeling of riding a real bike. You don't see bad sides of TT game but only good and you still think thats the best bike game ever.
If you still think that I'm fanboy of Milestone games and hater of TT game you are really wrong. I'm just mad that Kylotonn just wreck all my hopes for good Isle of Man game.

 

[Lidoptics]

the physics are awfull.
based on WRC 6 engine (https://i.imgur.com/9VF4R1M.png)
this game is based on a 4 wheel game engine, and after today's discussions in here on how the bike feels like it's handling like a car, I decided it was time to do some digging and put my modding head back on and opened up some game files .................................... could someone please explain to me why the handling files for John McGuinness's bike has settings for ..........Front Left Wheel ........... Front Right Wheel .................... Rear Left Wheel ...............and Rear Right Wheel ................. in a Motorcycle racing game ? please tell me.


https://i.imgur.com/jllVGVm.png

(from steam)

After spending time with the game, I came up with the exact same conclusion, and I'm glad you found proof. It's actually disgusting.

I disagreed with your and girlracer first comment because you still think that TT physics are good even when you know that isn't and I just disagree with word that "bike feels alive". For me is no way near alive bike but something beetwen soapbox cart and bus. Your argument that "you must drive on 80% instead 120%" is nothing more than justifying bad physics for me. And no, I'm not fanboy. I can see bad sides and good sides of both TT, Ride or MotoGP games. I can see that TT game have pretty nice recreated tracks and bikes bad have bad physics. I can see that Ride or MotoGP games have arcadey physics but at least this games tries to recreate feeling of riding a real bike. You don't see bad sides of TT game but only good and you still think thats the best bike game ever.
If you still think that I'm fanboy of Milestone games and hater of TT game you are really wrong. I'm just mad that Kylotonn just wreck all my hopes for good Isle of Man game.

There is almost zero rider feedback. If you are familiar with GPbikes, it reminds me a lot of riding on a modded track where everything feels temperamental. Just a total loss of control, but still more control than TT. There is NO indication that I could be braking too hard. The back end doesn't come out, or lift when under heavy front brake pressure. You just slide horizontally into the wall.

I've never had to fool around with control setting so much to accomplish absolutely nothing.

 

[Lidoptics]

Same thing with split brakes, just be careful using the front. Split brakes are useful since you only want to use your rear brake in fast sections.

But, the physics are wonky, so....

 

[VirtuaIceMan]

Sidecars are drivable if you just pretend it's a car. Then it kind of works. Still very tricky though.

Sidecars on the PS2 Isle of Man games were tricky too, despite the bike handling being quite praised.

 

[girlracerTracey]

btw .. motorcycle play are rare - so this game should be playable for everyone (a mix of "sim" and arcade) makes fun.. A good motorcycle since SBK (which has been a challenge in its time - and too difficult / complex for the masses)

I'm not arguing against you in this regard. That's why in my opinion the simple and straightforward solution is to introduce a higher level physics mode into the motogp and RIDE games. To compliment the existing "Standard", "Semi-Pro" and "Pro" physics modes in the game. A simple addition to the data.mix file .

The argument from this side of the trenches is basically if private amateur modders (Dyego and Giovane by way of example) can create very impressive "simulation" leaning physics upgrades to both games then why the heck can't the development team at Milestone do the same thing? And by doing so keep a wider spectrum of people happy? That would allow long term "enthusiasts" to race competitively online with a decent and meaningful challenge in what they are doing..

A simple solution I would suggest.

 

[girlracerTracey]

And we all know that you will buy Mgp18 and ride 3 and you will forget TT game.

Your psychic powers might be slightly wide of the mark I'm afraid on this one.

I sold on my console (xbox) version of motogp17 within 48 hrs of receiving it. I disliked what they had done with the physics that much.. I purchased a cheap steam key for motogp 17 so that I could sample Dyego's physics mod project and play the game I wish Milestone themselves had made offline using Dyego's data.mix file.

For myself and others Milestone's "vanilla" Pro physics on motogp 17 were deemed that awful I am afraid to tell you, which was a great shame as I was lined up to be the league organiser for an Italian based online league. Others walked away also.

The problem with motogp 18 and RIDE 3 on the Unreal engine that myself and others forsee is that it might not be possible to successfully mod the physics files albeit just for an "offline" experience. So if Milestone just go ahead and produce another re-run of their "vanilla" user-friendly simcade physics then those hankering after more realism may be in a worse position than we found ourselves on motogp 17.

I just wish Milestone would take the time and effort to give people like us, not you, what we really want..whilst at the same time keeping people who are already happy happy..

It's not a big ask. But I fear it will not happen for us.

 

[girlracerTracey]

p.s. sorry for taking this thread off-topic.

 

[Cote Dazur]

This will be amazing in VR.

 

[gamer19]

The argument from this side of the trenches is basically if private amateur modders (Dyego and Giovane by way of example) can create very impressive "simulation" leaning physics upgrades to both games then why the heck can't the development team at Milestone do the same thing?
And by doing so keep a wider spectrum of people happy?

Isn't that obvious actually ?

They want every single soul out there can feel like he can match Rossi & Marquez and the rest of WORLD best bikers, something so stupid and out of place but eh... people are like that, I guess. If you have to settle for some (physics) "in the middle" people would always feel bad about themselves and eventualy turn their anger on game itself "game is piece of s*hit, so not realistic.refund" but this way... you can cranck it up all the way ("physics" not graphic ) and feel like you deserve to be among the greatest you know... "damn, that was one amazing race, I really show that little p*ick Marquez who wear pants in da house!".

Sad, I know... but not too shabby on marketing/economic standing pointwise.
Maybe some people there in Milestone feel ashamed about that company policy but it all disappear after he sees his paycheck.

 

[girlracerTracey]

Isn't that obvious actually ?.

Yep. This is about marketing and keeping the CEO and company accountant happy..

This is not about creating a high quality m/c racing game that the development team can be proud of..

I am perfectly confident that if given a free rein the top physics coder could make a realistic, enthralling and challenging motogp racing title. But it's not about that any more is it..?

It is what it is. Which is why I am patient with the opposition and the opposition's 1st attempt at a motorcycle racing game. Sort that rear end out and for me it would be really good. Put some more feel into the front end and let the thing "tuck" if you overdo it and it would be even better..

Choice atm seems to be "realistic" physics that are dumbed down or something which is more challenging but encompasses some basic errors. It is what it is.

Meanwhile gpbikes celebrates its 10th anniversary and remains something of a niche market enigma. If things were different it would be nice for PiBoSo to do some basic consultancy work..

It's all about the money boys. I guess the opposite being the case this is what made gp500 and SBK 2001 such landmark titles those many moons ago..?

Anyway about those sidecars..

 

[gamer19]

Yeah, they're good. Sidebikes. Sideways. Sidecars I mean.

Though... too hard for me tbh. For now. And forever, most probably.
I suck with bikes but hey... at least I admit it.
Thank God for Milestone and their simplified physics, after all !

 

[Damage Inc]

I'm not arguing against you in this regard. That's why in my opinion the simple and straightforward solution is to introduce a higher level physics mode into the motogp and RIDE games. To compliment the existing "Standard", "Semi-Pro" and "Pro" physics modes in the game. A simple addition to the data.mix file .

The argument from this side of the trenches is basically if private amateur modders (Dyego and Giovane by way of example) can create very impressive "simulation" leaning physics upgrades to both games then why the heck can't the development team at Milestone do the same thing? And by doing so keep a wider spectrum of people happy? That would allow long term "enthusiasts" to race competitively online with a decent and meaningful challenge in what they are doing..

A simple solution I would suggest.

I agree, it's strange that they have all the actual animations of the correct bike behaviour but it takes some severe ham fisted riding to get the bikes out of shape. Although the Suter mmx500 in Ride 2 is actually quite a beast If I'm honest!

But yeah the "top" realism setting should be just that, as real as possible with all the options to make things more manageable for people like me!. Choice is always good, but money people have always liked forcing humanity into "sheople" mode.