Toyota Disqualified from WEC Silverstone 6h – Rebellion Inherits Victory
- Thread starter Paul Jeffrey
- Start date
That was just a poor excuse, one journalist said every team he talked to made jokes about Toyota with "better not visit Sebring then". They were cheating and got caught.
And the race was pretty nice, great battles with Rebellion and SMP. Great stuff in P2 and GTE Pro as well.
And Alonso really wants to escape to THIS ? 
The whole "cheating in every race (first that Russian team @ Lemans now this)/slash/only one team can win-they just need to show up" saga.
What a frickin joke THIS is.
Not to mention that you have to watch THIS for like 6, 12, 24 hours ?
F1 anytime. 1.5 hour and I'm on my trusty bike away away we go. MotoGP is even like half of that.
My condolences if you're truly a fan of ...THIS.
The whole "cheating in every race (first that Russian team @ Lemans now this)/slash/only one team can win-they just need to show up" saga.
What a frickin joke THIS is.
Not to mention that you have to watch THIS for like 6, 12, 24 hours ?
F1 anytime. 1.5 hour and I'm on my trusty bike away away we go. MotoGP is even like half of that.
My condolences if you're truly a fan of ...THIS.
Who's gonna join the Hypercar LMP1s though? Ford and Ferrari are already out of it, VW ain't come back either, leaves out Toyota. Without any chance of the current privateers to take part in it. Brilliant.
Could get solved way easier: get rid of any works effort in LMP1 aswell. We have a quite healthy privateer field already and I can only assume that some LMP2 teams would make the jump over to LMP1 if they could have a proper chance at winning races. Unpopular opinion though.
And Alonso really wants to escape to THIS ?
The whole "cheating in every race (first that Russian team @ Lemans now this)/slash/only one team can win-they just need to show up" saga.
What a frickin joke THIS is.
Not to mention that you have to watch THIS for like 6, 12, 24 hours ?
F1 anytime. 1.5 hour and I'm on my trusty bike away away we go. MotoGP is even like half of that.
My condolences if you're truly a fan of ...THIS.
If you don't like it, why do you even watch it or talk about it. Watch whatever you wanna watch, but leave the guys who actually understand the excitement of this part of the sport alone.
A full privateer LMP1 grid could be a solution, but it's not feaseable, unless FIA do not ban Toyota, the only manufacturer that is currently involved.
I don't believe the Hypercar Prototype regulations will be any beneficial to attract others manufacturers, because the costs would be high the same as LMP1 and the aesthetic similarity with a multi-milion hypercar being the only benefit compared to modern prototype, eventually too little benefit compared to the costs considering how a poor showcase the WEC is becoming.
If they want a strong privateer P1 just adopt DPi and give it a bit more power, then customer cars will be sold.
IMO Ford leaving the talks was just their play to make it happen because this is the only formula that will do what Ford wants (a top level car that can compete in IMSA and WEC with no changes), the supercar formula is nice but wont be as cheap as a DPi
IMO Ford leaving the talks was just their play to make it happen because this is the only formula that will do what Ford wants (a top level car that can compete in IMSA and WEC with no changes), the supercar formula is nice but wont be as cheap as a DPi
DPi are still LMP2 chassis, no good until you allow open chassis homologation ( WEC works teams aren't going to run someone else's chassis ) - and that with a bigger engine gives you privateer LMP1 anyway. They should have switched to the new "cheap" hybrid pack this season & worried about dressing up cars later on, that'd give a couple of years to test the less understood system.
Ok, here is the deal.
For non-hybrids to be able to get the same power and thus theoretically the same speed as Toyota, they need a higher fuel flow. This in turn means that they use more fuel, and they've also been granted permission to use a bigger fuel tank than Toyota.
My comment was quite simplistic indeed, as the issue here is quite simple.
If non-hybrids shall get speed parity, they need to use more fuel than Toyota.
If the rules had been "All LMP1 cars will have a 60l fuel tank". Toyota would've gone much longer than the privateers before a stop. As it is, the privateers are allowed 52.9kg of fuel, while Toyota are allowed 35.1kg. At the same time, Toyota is only allowed 80kg/hour as maximum fuel flow, where the privateers are allowed 115kg/hour. This means that the Toyota will last a shorter time if both classes are running at max fuel flow at all times. However, the hybrid system means that Toyota doesn't do this. And will be able to stretch the same amount of fuel longer at the same speed.
In fact, Toyota got their fuel allowance reduced for this season from 44.1kg to 35.1kg in a bid to reduce stint length from 14 to 11 laps at Le Mans.
Stint lengths in endurance racing is a bad thing. However - ACO have actually taken measures to make Toyotas stints shorter, they are not doing it to give hybrid tech a good image. They have closed stint lengths together - If it had been like it should've been, completely free when it comes to length, the privateers would have to sacrifice speed to go longer, which would put them further back from Toyota in pure speed.
I think you've misunderstood my initial post.
I agree with the fixed stints being wrong - it's endurance racing and strategy is a vital part.
That's the point tho, you dont need to try to get works teams (they'll happen anyway).
If all manufacturers had to do to be in Le Mans was to give them an engine that would work a lot better than expecting work teams, would be cheaper too. And in the end I'm sure track owners would love to see that happening, why? Manufacturers invite a lot of people and give away tickets, the first year Audi left Le Mans there were huge empty areas at that race because their guests were no longer there.
They should give a break on the electric thing, or keep that for Garage 56 entries, let DPi be the main point for a few years to see where tech will go first.
Ford wants to build a DPi, Zak Brown wants McLaren to make one, another team was trying to get Hyundai to put an engine in the class too. This class only racing in the US gets by far way more possibilities than LMP1H, imagine if you put that at Le Mans. I'm sure some people would try to fit a couple of GT3 engines into those P2 chassis
Your argument is reasonable, but has a critical flaw in it. If you look into the details of the EoT, it's the privateers that are getting a huge break in mileage; http://www.dailysportscar.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/LMP1-EoT-Values-2018.pdf
45kg weight break, and a fuel tank that's almost 50% larger. And then for Silverstone, the naturally aspirated competitors (Rebellion/SMP) were made another 15kg lighter and given more fuel breaks, even compared to the turbocharged privateers.
ERS is just that good. I don't have a problem with Toyota being allowed to be 'slightly' faster since the privateers are already getting substantial breaks. The real problem is that we were promised a competitive LMP1 season, and have been fooled, bamboozled, flimflammed, led astray, taken for a ride by Toyota and their insistence that everything was fair and balanced. They're not just 'slightly' faster, and that's terrible.
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What a yoke!!!
"Unwatch Thread"
check.
check.
I understood your initial post, I just felt it was stated incorrectly. I know what the ACO/FIA have done to make the non-hybrids faster. I know they limited the fuel amounts and such. I also know that they have still given Toyota/Hybrids an advantage that is obvious despite protestations to the contrary. This advantage was clear at Spa, again a Le Mans and yet again at Silverstone.
The problem I have with the whole scenario is that the ACO/FIA have allowed the non-hybrids to race with the hybrid but have hamstrung the ability of the non-hybrids to the extent that they are not, in any sense of the word, competitive.
This does a few things:
1) It artificially sells hybrid tech as superior. The funny thing is that hybrids are, indeed, superior
but now their potential is hamstrung by rules that are, on the face, developed for equality.
Which leads us to:
2) The rules are not, in any way, equal between hybrids and ICE LMP's. We all know that the
ICE LMP's can be made to go much faster, run longer, etc...yet are forced by artificial means
to not do so. Lotterer complained about this after Spa in which the ICE LMP's were forced to
fuel saving mode from the start of the race. This, obviously, prevented them from being
competitive with the Toyota's.
Why? If the hybrids are, indeed, the better tech then let them run unrestricted and let the other
cars compete in the same manner. Hybrids should win. Which leads us to:
3) Who wants to watch hybrids win all the time? Well...If all the LMP's are hybrid then no one
cares. But if only one team is hybrid and the rules are massaged to give the impression that
the ICE cars have a chance, (but they really don't), then it is not racing. It is a sham that is
presented as racing, for the sole reason to hype hybrid tech at the expense of real racing.
I believe hybrid tech is superior but I also think we race fans are being sold a bill of goods at the expense of real racing. Just so a political statement can be made by people with an agenda.
This sham that is being perpetrated by the ACO/FIA is giving hybrid race technology a bad name, thus giving hybrid tech a bad name.
What happens when true electric cars start running in whatever iteration of the WEC exists? Are the remaining ICE and Hybrid vehicles going to be forced to sit in the pits for 20 minutes to replicate the time needed to re-charge an EV? How about force the ICE and hybrids to change fuel tanks every stop?
I have no problem with hybrids. I do have a problem with artificial means for equalization that do not equalize, and I have a problem with people who rationalize disengenuity as ok, as long as the results are as intended: A hybrid walks away.
It's interesting that we are talking about fuel flows, and how hybrids are so superior because of it, but nobody talks about how much the systems weight, and what would be the true impact in laptimes/efficiency if the non hybrids would have the weight equivalent of the hybrid system removed from them. I don't believe the current difference in weight is a reflection of how much could be gained if the systems would be totally removed.
