Yeah the 4 spring method would be the best so 5-6x 4 springs would be better suited and more rigid coo to try though if possible
Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software
- Thread starter Mr Latte
- Start date
Dan Costa
World Champ Procrastination n' Hoarding Series
I finished the rig so far pics will follow -> now i make some tactile tests
The rig is swiniging easily - its time to find some tactile actuators ...
for this i make some tests with bigger piston mass to get more stroke at lower hz
You screwed a weight in it? does it work? I have 8 of those shakers. They work great above 37hz but they feel dead bellow that.
Mr Latte
Premium
If I may chime in, good to see people try things and experimenting.......
Keeping in the background as not spending the same time here on the forums as before.
Just my 2 cents as I still continue with gathering parts for my own build.
If attempting to use springs or rubber based isolators to bring about motion, as this thread has covered before, it is a flawed approach but I can see why some consider trying it.
Keeping in the background as not spending the same time here on the forums as before.
Just my 2 cents as I still continue with gathering parts for my own build.
If attempting to use springs or rubber based isolators to bring about motion, as this thread has covered before, it is a flawed approach but I can see why some consider trying it.
My own build is for using close to £1500 worth of vibration, isolation and also noise blocking materials. The concept is about combining multiple ideas into a working solution that I have never seen applied to a sim rig before. It is in part, highly experimental in this regard but has progressed based on tests and self-learning from them. While also learning better to understand "audio" in how to create good working effect sensations for various effects roles. I may be a bit of a loner in this regard and the whole "monitoring tactile frequencies" as a hobby interest in its own and having spent quite a lot of money on hardware to pursue this interest.
The primary goal with it all is to make superb effect sensations, that are produced via a specialist tactile installation the rig will use. My own perspective on this is that the isolation will ensure very good energy flows through the specifically made "isolated frame section of the rig" that the seat and pedals are attached to. The freedom of movement in this isolated section will increase the felt sensations and energy from the effects being used. As part of my own journey/preference for the tactile, each unit produces primary effects detailing to specific body regions and each unit has its own specific effects roles. Some are for rpm/gear, suspension/textures, or wheel-slip/g-loads. The reason for this is based again on testing as for me this solution eliminates the typical installation limitations of a single unit being used to produce...
(A) Multiple effects with very different frequencies needed at once
(B) Output only via a single installation point and body/contact region.
What I have never seen is a rig like an SFX build apply motion but use largescale tactile to work in unison with the motion. The isolation used in between to act not only to benefit the felt tactile of the isolated platform it supports but also then to operate like dampeners from the actual SFX motion. It has to not restrict or limit the motion but highlight the tactile energy and sustain it better.
So that even with the tactile off, the movement from the motion is going to add some degree of tilt and dampening via the tactile isolation solution installed. I think this will be okay if it is not too severe (soft) and it may even help to increase the immersion using restricted movement from the motion itself. What I don't know is how this may add or remove from the motion but I suspect it to be similar in some ways to how VR3 users already had a seat with some degree of tilt and combined these with an SFX based motion build. The difference being on this build it will be not just in the seat.
For my own solution, I felt the rig needed a wider area of support and using 12 supports in total, via pairs over (top/middle/bottom) for both left/right sides. I wanted it to apply a progressive type compression that had an initial softer dampening and then firmer feel within its compression. Softer for the tactile but firmer underneath from the movement caused by the motion.
I don't know how well it may work until is built, it's part daunting and exciting and a self-challenge to do something different to the normal 8020 based rigs so many now go for.
Tactile Is Not Motion & Should Not Be Used For Such
Motion is based on telemetry that determines the car's suspension a per wheel basis etc. The motion is accurately controlled by the parameters the telemetry is being used to work within for the range/stroke of the motions capable movement.
Low-frequency audio energy used to bring compression via rubber or spring based dampeners is never going to be accurate or controlled in anything that resembles controlled motion.
Let me give an example:
I could use 8 large Buttkickers placed over the 4 corners, so giving 2 units per corner/wheel. Then apply only "bump-based suspension effects" that worked in relation to each wheel. It would be possible to generate and use low frequency based effects then apply lots of wattages to attempt to generate some form of motion.
Its never going to be accurate in its response and additionally when applying other effects that suit having low frequencies as well, then their energy will also cause compression in the dampening used that is not relevant to this motion axis for suspension.
The primary goal with it all is to make superb effect sensations, that are produced via a specialist tactile installation the rig will use. My own perspective on this is that the isolation will ensure very good energy flows through the specifically made "isolated frame section of the rig" that the seat and pedals are attached to. The freedom of movement in this isolated section will increase the felt sensations and energy from the effects being used. As part of my own journey/preference for the tactile, each unit produces primary effects detailing to specific body regions and each unit has its own specific effects roles. Some are for rpm/gear, suspension/textures, or wheel-slip/g-loads. The reason for this is based again on testing as for me this solution eliminates the typical installation limitations of a single unit being used to produce...
(A) Multiple effects with very different frequencies needed at once
(B) Output only via a single installation point and body/contact region.
What I have never seen is a rig like an SFX build apply motion but use largescale tactile to work in unison with the motion. The isolation used in between to act not only to benefit the felt tactile of the isolated platform it supports but also then to operate like dampeners from the actual SFX motion. It has to not restrict or limit the motion but highlight the tactile energy and sustain it better.
So that even with the tactile off, the movement from the motion is going to add some degree of tilt and dampening via the tactile isolation solution installed. I think this will be okay if it is not too severe (soft) and it may even help to increase the immersion using restricted movement from the motion itself. What I don't know is how this may add or remove from the motion but I suspect it to be similar in some ways to how VR3 users already had a seat with some degree of tilt and combined these with an SFX based motion build. The difference being on this build it will be not just in the seat.
For my own solution, I felt the rig needed a wider area of support and using 12 supports in total, via pairs over (top/middle/bottom) for both left/right sides. I wanted it to apply a progressive type compression that had an initial softer dampening and then firmer feel within its compression. Softer for the tactile but firmer underneath from the movement caused by the motion.
I don't know how well it may work until is built, it's part daunting and exciting and a self-challenge to do something different to the normal 8020 based rigs so many now go for.
Tactile Is Not Motion & Should Not Be Used For Such
Motion is based on telemetry that determines the car's suspension a per wheel basis etc. The motion is accurately controlled by the parameters the telemetry is being used to work within for the range/stroke of the motions capable movement.
Low-frequency audio energy used to bring compression via rubber or spring based dampeners is never going to be accurate or controlled in anything that resembles controlled motion.
Let me give an example:
I could use 8 large Buttkickers placed over the 4 corners, so giving 2 units per corner/wheel. Then apply only "bump-based suspension effects" that worked in relation to each wheel. It would be possible to generate and use low frequency based effects then apply lots of wattages to attempt to generate some form of motion.
Its never going to be accurate in its response and additionally when applying other effects that suit having low frequencies as well, then their energy will also cause compression in the dampening used that is not relevant to this motion axis for suspension.
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Mr Latte
Premium
Personally, for me, this journey is about next level tactile Dan
Far beyond a typical rig. I need to invest heavily in ensuring the vibrations and noise from the tactile/motion do not go through the house as an (upstairs room). Such materials are not cheap if doing this from the approach of a professional build.
These are just some that were purchased for the build.
Yes its also for performance reasons too. VR3 is too limited in what we can bolt onto it. As my configuration will use different units for various roles/effects. My seat tactile alone weighs over 30Kg, (6x Large BK units 4x TST & 6x Exciters). Yes, in total 16 units for a seat (sounds crazy) but its how things progressed in the previous testing of individual effects and seeking a performance far beyond the norm. It gives a much greater definition of each effect with the user ability to define the sensation of each more, then balancing their desired outputs/strengths to mix within the seat itself but importantly fully immersing the upper body via different body zones.
These multiple units also require a custom designed/built frame to control the flow of the tactile to specific body regions and install the tactile. All that is weighing another 30Kg and more. There is no way a VR3 could manage this but SFX will handle the weight fine.
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Dan Costa
World Champ Procrastination n' Hoarding Series
I think your doing a good choice either way. I'm also satisfied with only the shakers using simhub. For isolation I have a soft carpet as the base, and the seat has many layers of absorption mats made for washing machines. Works great.
As for the V3 I think it can support up to 130kg. With a custom made frame, I think you could bolt an entire rig (seat + steering wheel + pedals + monitor) on top of the V3. Unless you weight 100kg!
As for the V3 I think it can support up to 130kg. With a custom made frame, I think you could bolt an entire rig (seat + steering wheel + pedals + monitor) on top of the V3. Unless you weight 100kg!
Yeah the 4 spring method would be the best so 5-6x 4 springs would be better suited and more rigid coo to try though if possible
yes this works fine adn u can lower the HZ range
I have mounted 2 under my bed for testing ->
this is a blast even when I play Battlefield with my son
not only for racing .
But for the rig plz note "swinging" and "leightweight" may make a huge difference.
keep this in mind
Here is another guy I will probably try this as well with basspump III they seem to work
even better ...
Mr Latte
Premium
Sooooooo.....
July 2019, here we are about 7 years of Simvibe being released yet it has done seemingly nothing to help improve something so simple as bringing much more engrossing "Gear Shifts". Well to be fair I don't think any tactile software offers such controls or options even today.
Yet within the space of an evening/afternoon, it's possible to talk to someone on the SimHub Discord channel. Put across some ideas and they use the "Custom Effect" options that Simhub has to enable creating suitable effects from scratch.
One friendly helpful member later and then its time for my part in working with finding suitable frequencies for the effect's operation. Sure enough with a bit of trial and error, we achieve the set goal. Thanks to the community and just a bit of creativity.
.
July 2019, here we are about 7 years of Simvibe being released yet it has done seemingly nothing to help improve something so simple as bringing much more engrossing "Gear Shifts". Well to be fair I don't think any tactile software offers such controls or options even today.
Yet within the space of an evening/afternoon, it's possible to talk to someone on the SimHub Discord channel. Put across some ideas and they use the "Custom Effect" options that Simhub has to enable creating suitable effects from scratch.
One friendly helpful member later and then its time for my part in working with finding suitable frequencies for the effect's operation. Sure enough with a bit of trial and error, we achieve the set goal. Thanks to the community and just a bit of creativity.
CABOOM
"Upshifts"
That can feel unique to
"Downshifts"
* Including multiple controls and options *
That can feel unique to
"Downshifts"
* Including multiple controls and options *
Have a look at some of the options made possible.
.
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I just got my 3rd NX1000D come in the post today at the post office ill collect it in the morning,Sooooooo.....
July 2019, here we are about 7 years of Simvibe being released yet it has done seemingly nothing to help improve something so simple as bringing much more engrossing "Gear Shifts". Well to be fair I don't think any tactile software offers such controls or options even today.
Yet within the space of an evening/afternoon, it's possible to talk to someone on the SimHub Discord channel. Put across some ideas and they use the "Custom Effect" options that Simhub has to enable creating suitable effects from scratch.
One friendly helpful member later and then its time for my part in working with finding suitable frequencies for the effect's operation. Sure enough with a bit of trial and error, we achieve the set goal. Thanks to the community and just a bit of creativity.
CABOOM
"Upshifts"
That can feel unique to
"Downshifts"
* Including multiple controls and options *
Have a look at some of the options made possible.
.
currently got my 6x LFE Minis all wired up ready to go on my playseat,
2x on the pedal plate left and right, 2x under my seat and 2x on the playseat gearshift holders cant wait to experience all 6 running at once these settings look great thx for sharing will check them out tomorrow creating the custom effects to layer it better,
be cool if there was somewhere with presets already created.
Mr Latte
Premium
be cool if there was somewhere with presets already created.
Yeah it would be cool if someone was working on say a profile with lots of nice effects and options for people to choose from. Meaning someone with a single unit could use it to someone with an advanced configuration wanting to have more complexed effects operating over multichannels.
Engine options are an example that would be really cool to have multiple options to choose what we wanted to suit a car that we are using all in a single profile. The user would just have to try the different options to find what suited their preference.
Ahem, maybe something like this
SSShhhhhhhhhh
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Dear me...........Yeah it would be cool if someone was working on say a profile with lots of nice effects and options for people to choose from. Meaning someone with a single unit could use it to someone with an advanced configuration wanting to have more complexed effects operating over multichannels.
Engine options are an example that would be really cool to have multiple options to choose what we wanted to suit a car that we are using all in a single profile. The user would just have to try the different options to find what suited their preference.
Ahem, maybe something like this
SSShhhhhhhhhh
Mr Latte
Premium
One of the recommendations I made for Simhub a while back that the developer added was the ability to be able to attach individual effects layers to any of the soundcard channels they want too. Along with this they can set individual volumes on each channel which is a very handy feature as all effects and channels can be viewed/altered on a single option screen.
It even supports multiple soundcards and unlike Simvibe it is not restricted to only 4 channels per card.So a 5.1 (6channel card) gives the user 6 full channels to use (assuming you have 6 units and amplification).
There are still a few more things I might like to see added but its been amazing to have a developer that does take onboard things and has the ability to make it happen and does such in often very short timeframes. @Wotever has been amazing in what he has done with his own software and tactile is only part of what it offers as many are aware.
Multiple Factors:
Each user has to take into account the installation they have. What already has been learned is what frequencies work well on the majority of units or how to make effects that work well across the board for most. Also how to make an effect that works really well with the more upmarket or capable models too. What I can't account for is peoples own installations, how, where they have units installed.
Forging A Solution:
I have already mentioned how well multiple exciters are working for me on a seat and how this gives with different body regions a great way to experience tactile differently to typical installations. Impressed so much with it I see it as a fundamental element for my own build to incorporate.
Creating A Fixed Standard?
So I have been creating effects that work really well with this method. In this, I can have profiles made that are great for a seat that has anything from 1-8 exciter units installed. Think of it a bit like SFX in that most people have very similar installations, so profiles for it can be shared and should work well on most peoples rigs, with of course personal preference varying regards felt sensations or intensities.
This is what tactile is generally missing, is a common element in hardware and installation.
What I have been trying to share with this concept of the multiple exciters and bodyzone approach is that if people have such then yes they can experience custom made effects that are sure to work well. Installing them in the shoulder, spine, sides and base of the seat. The effects for a profile can be made to suit a 1-8 unit configuration taking much of the hassle out and the user set their preferred frequencies for effects or volumes.
Im going to soon narrow down the recommendation to a single model/unit having now used several for a few months. Also the amps for these are affordable, more on this can be shared at a later time but my own build will highlight this too.
Direct Contact Exciters & Larger Units
Of course, it's also possible to add additional tactile in bigger or additional units to these. In my mind and what I have tested/experienced those seeking the best tactile immersion will want to go this route as its a total gamechanger for improving the felt sensations and multiple effects in operation.
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The exciters / pucks really surprised me. The 40W ones especially have an amazing amount of power for their size when mounted directly on the seat. I have both 20W and 40W ones and while both are good the 40W ones give a lot more confidence in being able to handle power. Just holding them you can tell a big difference. Thinking of getting another pair to make 6 on the seat in total, but need another amp.
Don't yell at me Rodders.
I've actually just tried out the gear effect in V 2.1 just to see if it added anything (remember I run full motion so the jolt is very physical already, no need for artificial thumps here) and to my pleasant surprise, it does. Not with energy per se, but with the downshifts, it gives the feeling of actual drive-train response from changing the gears down and the throttle auto blipping. With the very nice engine vibes giving the blip feeling even on down shifts, which is awesome, the little bump adds a lot. I will most likely leave this enabled. Again as Rodney has mentioned, the ability to send that signal to only the seat Mini LFE and the rear seat mounted 40W exciters (and not the 20W ones mounted the to side of the seat) it's a great separation of effect that feels authentic. To me anyway.
Don't yell at me Rodders
.I've actually just tried out the gear effect in V 2.1 just to see if it added anything (remember I run full motion so the jolt is very physical already, no need for artificial thumps here) and to my pleasant surprise, it does. Not with energy per se, but with the downshifts, it gives the feeling of actual drive-train response from changing the gears down and the throttle auto blipping. With the very nice engine vibes giving the blip feeling even on down shifts, which is awesome, the little bump adds a lot. I will most likely leave this enabled. Again as Rodney has mentioned, the ability to send that signal to only the seat Mini LFE and the rear seat mounted 40W exciters (and not the 20W ones mounted the to side of the seat) it's a great separation of effect that feels authentic. To me anyway.
Looking forward to testing those new Changing Gears effects
Yes metoo
THX for the tips Mr Latte
I will try to make some progress before holiday.
But I fear the gearschifts in ACC for example (AC not tested yet)
feel much clearer/more present than in rfactor1 wich is the sim a play most of the time
Plz note I have the same config in simhub/no changes but the feeling is complete different.
Is the there a way /instruction to edit the simhub rfactor1 plugin file or can "whatever" do some improvements?
THX for the tips Mr Latte
I will try to make some progress before holiday.
But I fear the gearschifts in ACC for example (AC not tested yet)
feel much clearer/more present than in rfactor1 wich is the sim a play most of the time
Plz note I have the same config in simhub/no changes but the feeling is complete different.
Is the there a way /instruction to edit the simhub rfactor1 plugin file or can "whatever" do some improvements?
Mr Latte
Premium
An interesting thing to highlight...
Different sims may vary with how they use or output data values from telemetry. Take the effect you highlight, a Gearshift. I would query what is the dB output from this effect with the same setting in Simhub using the same Hz and settings. Is there a balancing issue between the input/output levels for each sim or is the issue more related to specific effects?
A frequency can feel very different based on the amplitude/gain that is used with it. Or a sim may output certain types of effects with lower gain than another. Simhub may be able to help improve how each sim can be more balanced.
Sim Effects Comparison Chart/Table?
Has anyone here tried to match the output levels or to discover if a particular effect in one sim is much stronger or much weaker than another? Others here may have more experience/understanding of effects operation between the different sims. It would be good to see a document/chart that highlights which effects are, lets say problematic or not working so well in certain sims to those in others. I don't think I have ever seen someone do a breakdown of effects across each sim. Certainly interesting though if someone was to do this.
What I do have user experience in and applying....
Is a high level of audio monitoring hardware/software that lets me see the actual output of all channels from Simhub going to the amps and to the tactile used. This can be used in various ways to highlight the real-time output for every channel. Or any effects that are operating on a channel and this could visually show in detail the actual audio output to compare one sim to another.
Once we know what the problematic effects are, then we can see if something can be done with the settings or adding layers to help boost an effect. It may be that the developer of the software can fix something internally if we explain/show a particular issue. He may be able to just do something internally with the code for that sim/effect that improves this problem.
Note:
The Gear effect I highlighted is one created by using the custom features, so it's not one that is yet available to select in the software. Much credit must go to "romainrob" over at the Discord channel. He is good with the algorithm or operational code side of things in how effects work with the telemetry data.
What I did was request if it were possible to set a rule that could.
1) Split Gearshifts into up/down individual effects layers
2) Can we have some form of delay applicable as well as holding an effect operation for longer
3) Can we have an increase in dB for the gearshifts output as the cars speed increases
With these options, we can then experiment with effect layers and installations incorporated into a rig. That's more where I do my thing and seek to apply ways to bring more detail or variation to effects. Finding ways to help give different effects their own felt character. Keep in mind many tactile use very limited frequency ranges so one way to give effects their own character is how we use different bodyzones. This is why the mutli unit exciter installation works so well and brings its own advantages over typical installations.
* Tactile based seat cushions do this but not with specially designed effects. Additionally, some such cushions use motors that are very restricted in the Hz they can use. Or as seen with even the one Barry Rowland reviewed it used the common Dayton Puc which is not as good in the range of frequencies and detail it can generate for important effects that RPM and others make use of.
No Profiles / Lack Of Offical Guidelines
I have criticized in the past how SimXperience has never created their own profiles or test tools for users paying $90 for their software. To help aid them in the complicated thing that tactile can be for many people as we see a wide range in variation of the hardware and installations people have.
What I have found is that creators/developers of tactile based software be they individuals or companies. They have not seemingly ran tests on a wide range of tactile units/products or have much user experience with them. They are not spending hundreds of hours in research as to comparing effects on different hardware units. Or learning to build effects layers that are designed to operate to suit the characteristics of specific models. So we have this void that basically people are on their own to go out and learn as they go or be frustrated in trying to get good feeling tactile from the hardware they have purchased and installed.
To my knowledge, often for these developers, the hardware they use themselves is simple affordable units or average at best. So what we have is the tools in the software they offer to go out and create effects but no guidance, no pre-tested and created effects themselves for high-end units or indeed profiles that are ready to go and be used. They themselves do not have the personal experience of how different an installation with the most basic tactile feels to one with much more upmarket models installed. That's partly why we have such a mess and headaches surrounding tactile.
Some things I have been working on are below that might help matters.
- Monitor audio outputs with professional tools/hardware
- Understand the main frequency range most units will work well within
- Test effects so that they do work well on many models of tactile (each has limitations)
- Explore and test new possibilities
- Build transitioning effects to work well over "multiple exciter" seat type configuration
- Ensure well-combined operation of "exciters" and "professional" tactile hardware.
- Seek to offer tools to learn/understand and test different frequencies.
- Let users discover what the lowest and highest Hz are with the hardware they have
- Let uses test various pre-defined frequency sweeps & individual tones
- Let users discover the peak frequencies for the hardware they own
- Let users discover the most suitable gain levels/volume different Hz feel good at
- Apply Gearshits for individual "tone-generation" testing, (every 5Hz from 5Hz-150Hz)
- Apply RPM for "frequency sweeps" between start/end frequency ranges. (multiple presets)
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