Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[metalnwood]

What buttkicker is the TST closest competitor as far as performance ?. Bk advanced?

I am not sure if there is? I have not had a advanced. I have had the mini and the LFE. There is the crossover where the LFE easily outperforms the TST at lower but the TST easily outperforms the LFE at higher and I am not sure that there is a BK that outperforms the tst at the ranges where is it good.

The LFE/TST combo is great, Latte did find us a good combo there.

 

[Elaphe]

Is there any shaker that is small (less than 10 cm wide) but powerfull? I would like to pair it with a BS200i (pedals) in serial connection and use it for my shifter. Both will be driven by a 100W mono amplifier.

 

[Callsign BH]

TST-429 is hands down my favorite tactile unit (have yet to install my DA exciters)...the LFE is great, but the TST adds so much to the overall feel.

 

[cnhoff]

TST-429 is hands down my favorite tactile unit (have yet to install my DA exciters)...the LFE is great, but the TST adds so much to the overall feel.

From a bang-for-the-buck perspective, i would recommend a LFE-329 combination because in my part of the world you can get the LFE almost for free if you go for the 329 instead of the 429. In that combo the LFE will anyway do the heavy-lifting below 40-45Hz where the 429 might have a small advantage. As i was never tempted to run my TSTs above 50%, the additional "efficiency" of the 429 is not really a selling-point, at least in my books. Obviously the 429 will not perform worse than the 329 per-se

Btw i have a 239 on the pedals and i don't really feel that at 50% i am lacking anything compared to the seat.

And yes @metaInwood, Latte indeed recommends a great combo.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Of course if you did like me and got a TST 329 that I later upgraded to a 429, it may not save you any money.

The 429 will give you twice the bang for the same watt. It is substantially more efficient.

I went that route just to make it less likely that I ever blow one up, but I like how they feel a bit better too. I think it depends on how your wallet feels about it.

 

[cnhoff]

Of course if you did like me and got a TST 329 that I later upgraded to a 429, it may not save you any money.

The 429 will give you twice the bang for the same watt. It is substantially more efficient.

I went that route just to make it less likely that I ever blow one up, but I like how they feel a bit better too. I think it depends on how your wallet feels about it.

Did you think the 329 was lacking in power? Just trying to understand your decision, as i am running mine at 1pm on the NX1000D and could not imagine needing more headroom.

 

[anton_Chez]

I have a 429 and a 239. They run on the same amp, the amp has a single gain control knob. So both channels are receiving exactly the same amount of power at all times, software limitations aside. When I use the test tone in Simhub, the 429 is noticeably more active. Now, this could be the fact that the 429 is mounted on a timber board, where the 239 is mounted with the universal mount under the pedal frame, directly to the profile. Different conditions there. But there is a noticeable difference in both the sound it makes as well as the feeling you get when you use that test tone.
So as Mark is saying, I have to agree that feeding the 429 the same wattage as a 239 / 329, you will get more feeling. It's weird, normally the higher tier units require more power and give more feeling but the TST's are like the opposite, at least in the power requirement category. The 429 also handles more power than the lower models so you're getting higher power handling, with more efficient usage of that power. The Platinum has high potential to easily outperform the Silver and Gold models.

Is it worth $1000+ AUD to get one though? Comapred to getting a Gold or Silver unit instead? I'm not sure about that. But I've got some cracking deals lately on high end tactile units and at the price I got mine for, it's absolutely a bargain and very much worth investing in. I've taken the plunge now. Full isolation, an EQ Q10B is also joining the family as is a higher power amp to run it.

Tactile is very much a rabbit hole.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Tactile is very much a rabbit hole.

Yup... I just ordered a Streamdeck XL as a tactile accessory.

 

[torsteinvh]

In need of something to upgrade, I've decided to look into adding some tactile elements to my rig. I already have a NLR v3 motion unit, so I'm starting very simple with four DAEX32EP-4 Thrusters.
Planned placement is two exciters on the seat back, and two under the seat somewhere below my thighs.
I have removed the upholstery from my seat to best find spots to attach the exciters:

I originally planned to mount the exciters on the seat back side by side, but my seat is quite curved, so the only reasonably flats spots are along the middle.

I found a lot of useful information in this and other threads, but one question I haven't found an answer to is this:
- Is it possible to mount the exciters under the upholstery/seat cover for a stealthy look, or is that going to impair their functionality?

 

[fjskmdl]

Finally decided to make a purchase, but want to check if i have everything i need (especially concerning cabling):

• Cordial CFY 3 WMM (2 x XLR male -> jack 3.5 mm stereo male)
  => to connect the NX3000D to this usb soundcard: StarTech.com USB 2.0 Soundbox 7.1 Adapter
• 2 x Hicon Banana HI-BM04-WH (to connect to LFE)
• the sssnake SLL22510 (2x 4-Pin speaker twist plugs, 2x2.5mm)
  => 1 side goes to nx3000D, other and i strip and connect the 2 wires with banana plug to the LFE
• Fischer Amps Buttkicker LFE
• NX3000D
• racebass plate + isolators to connect sparco r100 seat to 8020 frame P1X

 

[anton_Chez]

Selling an NX1000D in Australia if anyone is looking for one.

 

[MADasFUDGE]

Hi guys,

I have what I would call a mid-tier cockpit. Meaning there is people here who invested much more, but not many people have what I built. And I am looking to DIVE INTO tactile.

I read a lot of posts, especially the posts and comments from Mr Latte. I know there is a lot of hate when it goes to Tactile VS Movement. But I feel my best way to upgrade now is tactile. And I will address that briefly.

My rig in it's current state:

-Sim-lab GT1 EVO 80/20 cockpit with some upgrades (custom profiles and such);
-NLR Motion Platform V3;
-Sparco Grid-Q seat;
-Simlab Sim Seatbelt 4-Point harness (fixated to the NLR Motion Platform V3);
-Fanatec DD2;
-Fanatec Formula V2 Wheel;
-Fanatec Clubsport V3 Inverted;
-Triples 32" Flat 1440p 165Hz;
-Simlab Integrated Monitor Mount;
-Buttkicker Gamer2 running with SIMHUB (fixated to the NLR Motion Platform V3) and running engine rev. + road textures;
- 4" Dashboard USB running with SIMHUB;
-Elgato StreamDeck.


How it all started...
I was aiming at a NLR Motion Platform V3 + NLR Traction Loss Platform with VR. In the mean time I had a HTC Vive, HP Reverb G2 but it just wasn't for me. The motion sickness, pixel density and not being able to use the buttons on my wheel are just a deal breaker for me.

Objectives revised...
So I tried an ultra-wide 34" monitor and I needed more immersion, wider screens. That made triples a must have for me. But considering the space I have for my rig I preferred to go with the integrated mount from Simlab. And although pretty rigid (reinforced with extra profiles), I don't think I can go neither for the NLR Tracktion Loss Platform nor a D-Box. I believe the NLR Tracktion Loss is still doable, but I don't think it is worth the investment at the moment.

What I like most about my rig and my way of thinking...
I have a family and not so much time as I would like. However building PC-Hardware has always been my hobby (I believe I have the coolest running 3090 in the world ). So I am capable of building a nice DIY tactile system for my rig.
I love my rig very much. It is IMO simply incredible. And I am so glad I can afford it. The triples are amazing, the DD2 with Formula V2 is amazing, the inverted pedals are amazing. But....
...the crown goes to the NLR Motion Platform V3 and the Buttkicker Gamer2. If I turn those off the rig is just ripped of any emotion, almost dead. And I have to say the Buttkicker is DEFINETELY the best BANG FOR BUCK. Just feeling the engine when I press the gas pedal is beyond joyful. It makes me smile every time.

So the next step is....
I would keep everything as is and add 4x transducers to simulate the individual wheels. My plan is something in the line of:
-2x NX-1000D (4 individual channels);
-4x Reckhorn BS-200i bolted directly to the cockpit base on the 4 corners;
-using Simhub to inject telemetry data into the sound output;
-using the onboard soundcard (already in use with the Buttkicker) as input for the 4 individual channels of the 2x NX-1000D.


TLDR...
I would appreciate having a trained eye to look at what I intend to do and see if there is anything I am overseeing or if it simply can't work as intended.
Looking at my rig it is easy to see that I prefer commercial and fully integrated solutions (Fanatec, NLR and such). So I am willing to purchase some sort of turn-key solution as long as performance is on pair (delivery in Germany).

Additional questions...
-Are there better transducers that I can use? I have seen options from Buttkicker (LFE, mini, concert) but I can't figure out how big they are and if they won't be too much for the amplifiers;
-Is there a better choice of amplifier? I can't find any iNuke anywhere. Even the Behringer NX lineup is sold-out everywhere. I was considering a NX-6000-4, but from what I could read the EQ function of the NX-1000D is worth running 2 units instead of just one, and the wattage should be enough in both cases.
-Where do I get a equalization curves as a starter setting for the NX-1000D? I don't have the experience and knowledge to do it myself. And as far as I could read it would stupid to build all of this and not have a high quality tactile experience.



I know this is probably too much to read for the average forum user. But I hope there are some enthusiasts that will try to help me.
It is really hard to find clear answers and suggestions when it comes to subjective feeling and preferences. But I definitely believe in tactile as a powerful resource to improve my experience.

Thank you in advance to all that take the time to read my post.
Cheers,
Bruno

 

[metalnwood]

Considering the decisions you were making early on for the motion, dropping those ideas and thinking about the TL only, deciding TL might not be the best motion option by itself and then landing on tactile upgrades - that all seems good to me.

If it came down to just TL or good tactile it would be good tactile all day in my book. The only thing I don't understand is after reading all the threads how you arrived at the reckhorns and corner mounted (especially corner mounted).

Considering you dont want to make any custom mounting solutions and want off the shelf as much as possible I would buy a LFE and two TST 239's. Go for the next model up on the tst's if you want and can spare the $$. It seems that the amount you were looking to spend on the tactile is quite a bit less then the amount you were going to spend even on the NLR TL and you will love the tactile a lot more than just the TL by itself.

To mount them, get the simtag racebass kit that includes just the mounting solution.

The amps will do the trick but for the large LFE think about the nx3000. Otherwise you could run one bridged for the LFE and the other for both TST's. A nx3000 will leave you with a channel spare should you want to add another lfe. This is a solution that will deliver a lot more than the one you were looking at and will have you wondering if you should get that lfe or not but you will have the spare channel if you do.

@cnhoff is running all thosethe amps/tst/lfe and got those delivered to germany.

I know this suggestion is a jump up in $$ from your suggestion but I went with it because it would really be a good improvement and still well within the investments you were looking at.

 

[blekenbleu]

4x Reckhorn BS-200i bolted directly to the cockpit base on the 4 corners;

Why not bolt them to corners of the building that you live in?
Does the expression "boiling the ocean" ring any bells?
If your cockpit is even moderately rigid, you will be unable to usefully distinguish
left from right, perhaps not even front from rear.

Four 20-Watt pucks in a seat cushion deliver distinct haptics for 4 corners.
On track in real cars, probably most sense of which tires are slipping comes from yaw
and tire squeal. SimHub can simulate tire squeal into four speakers appropriately located, but also using those 20-Watt pucks.

 

[Alvaro de la Orden]

Another vote against four corner/chassis mode.
Much better placing them on the seat and pedal plate

 

[MADasFUDGE]

The only thing I don't understand is after reading all the threads how you arrived at the reckhorns and corner mounted (especially corner mounted).

First of all thank you all for your input! Really appreciate it.
I will try and tackle each point you guys made.

Why reckhorns and corner mounted...
I saw Mr Latte saying somewhere they were pretty good (Reckhorn). And I couldn't figure out the difference between LFE, mini, concert. The nomenclature used by the shops I found is always marginally different and I was never sure which modell people meant.
As far as corner mounted goes, that just feels like the logical place to mount them: where the actual wheels are.

 

[MADasFUDGE]

Considering you dont want to make any custom mounting solutions and want off the shelf as much as possible I would buy a LFE and two TST 239's. Go for the next model up on the tst's if you want and can spare the $$. It seems that the amount you were looking to spend on the tactile is quite a bit less then the amount you were going to spend even on the NLR TL and you will love the tactile a lot more than just the TL by itself.

When searching for LFE I found three different products:
- Fischer Amps Buttkicker LFE
- Fischer Amps mini LFE
- Buttkicker mini LFE
And there is practically nobody selling any of them in Germany. The only music store that has them listed is out of stock.

I am willing to increase the budget. Just have to figure out what is it that you guys are recommending.

 

[MADasFUDGE]

To mount them, get the simtag racebass kit that includes just the mounting solution.

The racebass seems like a very expensive piece of hardware. And the description on their site is horrible. It has dampers, a metal plate and brackets. But what is is for?
-Do you use it to lift the whole rig and make it "shake"? If this is the case, then I can imagine my solution of corner mount should be doable again, or not?
-Or do you lift the seat with it? In that case it won't work well with the NLR Motion Platform V3. Putting the seat on springs will make delay any response of the motion platform and most likely kill the effect.

 

[MADasFUDGE]

The amps will do the trick but for the large LFE think about the nx3000. Otherwise you could run one bridged for the LFE and the other for both TST's. A nx3000 will leave you with a channel spare should you want to add another lfe. This is a solution that will deliver a lot more than the one you were looking at and will have you wondering if you should get that lfe or not but you will have the spare channel if you do.

Doesn't it make more sense to get a NX6000-4 and use 2 channels for the LFE?
And did mean running a NX1000D bridged for the LFE?

 

[MADasFUDGE]

If your cockpit is even moderately rigid, you will be unable to usefully distinguish
left from right, perhaps not even front from rear.

Four 20-Watt pucks in a seat cushion deliver distinct haptics for 4 corners.
On track in real cars, probably most sense of which tires are slipping comes from yaw
and tire squeal. SimHub can simulate tire squeal into four speakers appropriately located, but also using those 20-Watt pucks.

I didn't know that. I imagined I would be able to feel the vibration and also be able to distinguish where it was coming from.

Maybe I should go back a few steps and ask different questions:
- What is the point of a advanced tactile (anything more than the Buttkicker Gamer2 I already have) experience if I can't simulate the vibration of the car on the 4 points of suspension? This is a real question, not throwing any punches at you guys.
- Won't 4 pucks in the seat feel weird? Can't tell the vibration originated so close to you? And can I do it on my Sparco Grid-Q? I don't want to ruin the seat.
- What kind of haptics can you distinguish on a advanced tactile system as you guys suggested? LFE + 2 TSE? Can you feel a single wheel over a curb? Brakes locking? Wheels slipping individually?
- Wouldn't a speaker system be a completely different approach? And can you even tell where sound is coming from considering we are talking of very low frequencies?