Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[signman]

Johnny, what have you got you DGX set up like ?

I only have bumps set at 15%..Zero filtering now in the Nissan GTP ..Iracing.

 

[Hiro Abe]

I've started to play around with custom DSP frequency settings in combination with SSW. I currently have a simple set up - LFE/seat/bumps and TST209/pedals/engine beat. I haven't done a lot of testing in terms of various sims but R3E and AC are feeling pretty decent. Still scratching my head on customizing the waveforms.

Testing time has been rather restrictive as of late thanks to life. Will definitely post some feedback regarding iRacing at some point this weekend.

Oh... the above is all SSW. I have SV but I'm diggin' SSW and sticking with it for now.

Fun stuff!

PS: A bit off topic but... I can't recommend enough the SilenX Effizio fan as a replacement for the DSP amp. It's a common mod to replace the loud stock fan and I went with the SilenX. I kid you not - when I first turned on my amp, I thought the fan wasn't running. Absolute night/day difference in regards to noise. Couldn't be happier!

 

[Mr Latte]

I've started to play around with custom DSP frequency settings in combination with SSW. I currently have a simple set up - LFE/seat/bumps and TST209/pedals/engine beat. I haven't done a lot of testing in terms of various sims but R3E and AC are feeling pretty decent. Still scratching my head on customizing the waveforms.

Testing time has been rather restrictive as of late thanks to life. Will definitely post some feedback regarding iRacing at some point this weekend.

Oh... the above is all SSW. I have SV but I'm diggin' SSW and sticking with it for now.

Fun stuff!

PS: A bit off topic but... I can't recommend enough the SilenX Effizio fan as a replacement for the DSP amp. It's a common mod to replace the loud stock fan and I went with the SilenX. I kid you not - when I first turned on my amp, I thought the fan wasn't running. Absolute night/day difference in regards to noise. Couldn't be happier!

Good to read that you are doing some self-exploration.

Some care should be taken if getting a different fan, the stock fan is noisey but it pushed out a lot of air and more than quieter fans will. The most common model I seen and people have used for 2-3 years reliably is the (Noctua NF-R8 redux-1800 PWM) model. It is the equivalent to a 32CFM model having (Airflow 53,3 m³/h). I wouldnt recommend using any fan below this.

Converter

Those more cautious regards the already reduced airflow. Its possible to also apply some heatsinks to certain components but the DSP models have changed a little over the years of its production.






Inuke DSP
My advice regards your own issue of reverb with certain Hz is to play around with the "Crossover" with a flat EQ. You can use "White Noise" or general audio from the sim to have a full flow of frequencies being used. What you can do is limit exactly what Hz go out of the amp. You could have 60-80Hz only being output if you wanted to test for reverb with that small but specific 20Hz range and then do the same for other ranges. This lets you evaluate how or what each Hz range brings in the immersion it generates. You may find that over 90Hz brings little in felt response. Yet you may find some Hz are too strong and need to be dialled back or others like the lowest Hz you may want to boost.

The key to understanding is that different Hz can operate well with different amounts of gain. This can also be dependent on the character of the tactile unit in how it operates, what performance it has and the installation materials being used also react to the varying frequencies and the energy being output for them are.

Using the crossover will let you detect what Hz are causing noise related vibration in your rig and where they are happening. Isolation or sound-deadening materials and solutions could be applied to fix these.However, we can control and dial back specific Hz if needed. Yet maintain optimal performance with others. As an example, let's assume you find reverb is causing a problem in the 70-80Hz region so having these frequencies subdued in their gain with the control of the amp will help reduce or remove the noise they generate.

We can use the other tools such as "PEQ" to correct or remove individual groups of frequencies that are troublesome on a users own rig materials or installation. My own simple profiles I shared with some people are to help control the tactile units operation but each users own rig materials will react differently.

So the ideal thing, would of been to teach people how to properly self tune and bring to the attention some does and don'ts. This isn't anywhere near as difficult as it seems, yet most DSP owners do not even touch the controls they have. I presume much of that is because they just don't grasp it or find it overbearing.



Crossover


Here is an example of two 20Hz -100Hz crossovers (Channel A & B) but notice how one has a gentle slope (orange) but the other has a cliff edge (blue). This by adjusting the dB of the slope. Very simple but pay attention to what the graphic shows, this will help greatly in understanding what some controls do. The (orange) slope is having an effect from as low as 35Hz with frequencies over this starting to drop in their dB. The (blue) filter is only having an effect on dropping slight dB from approx 85Hz. However, both place 100Hz at approximately -3dB.

Note, however, practice with this and increase or lower the "GAIN" for the crossover to see via the graphic illustration how it alters the curve and slope. We can use a combination of gain and curve to get a more suitable slope for the general desired output control.

With PEQ control you then use it to better alter specific Hz ranges, you can even boost or the opposite in slice a specific range out so not being used. An example of this is a "Notch" filter. With PEQ you adjust the "Q" control to determine how wide and via the dB applied how deep it may go. The higher you set the "Q Control" then the less adjacent frequencies to the frequency you are adjusting will be effected.


Example: Cutting out specific Hz. Narrow or Wide mouth determines the Hz being trimmed.
The opposite can also be applied in boosting specific Hz.

My advice is to play around with things but use the onscreen graphic to let you see exactly what it is doing. Before someone can tune cockpits tactile they should first be trying to get control of reverb or poor isolation issues. To determine what range of HZ they can use well or prefer to limit the tactile too. This may be different for an LFE to a TST.

Sort those principles first, and keep in mind DSP is to control "How" and "What Your Tactile Output" it is not for control of SSW or Simvibe effects.

We use Audacity and SSW controls to determine how an "individual effect" will operate/feel. The DSP wthen used, applies its own controls to ALL the frequencies the tactile units are generating regards ALL the combined effects that are operating.

I really could spend quite a bit of time covering iNuke DSP properly but really the lack of input or general feedback from several threads already done does nothing to inspire me to continue to do more. I just have lost motivation to do such as it's not enjoyable putting in the effort with lack of group activity from others. Few are interested in getting involved, and I'm at the other end of the scale being very active or interested in learning more or taking tactile immersion further.






Combined & Joint Efforts?
Take 8020 cockpit owners, show me a thread anywhere that tried to get owners of 8020 rigs to work together with regards tactile operation and vibration or isolation issues. Using the benefits or iNuke DSP and doing combined tests with the popular tactile models. Each person sharing the reactions they get with various tests. To try and find common ground for optimal settings or materials to use in isolation.

That should be something that would be possible, interesting to follow or take part in but again few will bother their back-side doing something for the community unless perhaps they have their own personal interest or gain from it. Does this opinion seem harsh or the simple truth?

Im so browned off at the moment....

Indeed, as with my own PM, several folk come and go, show interest but then when they get the help to improve their own rig or be given good working files they disappear. They give little back so I guess this is the difference between "sim racers" seeking just better immersion and those actually interested in "tactile immersion". They will gladly take but give little in return. Once they (some not all) reach for them a "satisfactory" performance from the tactile they are content.


"Youre Pushing Me Too Hard"
I'm then questioned by Andre why I have not shared my own files when clearly I want more user testing with them on various hardware and improvements to SSW to bring better control but I then get shunned by Andre also. "Pushing him too hard", when clearly looking at his own Facebook page it's not as if many others are offering him the level of support or feedback he gets here from various owners of multichannel tactile. People that offer their own time and seek to improve effects performance. Surely such people, he should perhaps be more grateful of as they continue to use, promote and support his own software. Yet we get chastised. So it appears we have reached a point in SSW that limits the potential of the effects for tactile users with the current limitations. I just dont get it, youd think we would be encouraged to help keep improving the softwares potential. Enlarging the userbase and sales of it.

So at this point for me the enjoyment of all this, is affected and Im asking myself "where is the community interest or support?" I do seem to be a rare individual with an interest in tactile, an interest others may not have with the same level of expectations or vision of whats possible with some of my own OTT goals. Yet I know how good and how far we can take tactile, thats what excites me.

On top of all the other frustration is my own build is also a major challenge, this is currently sapping my time and energy too. Yet being frustrating as with the limited funds I have, it brings a slow speed to its progress. While I want to be able to do more it takes time.

Talking of time, as a combination its all too much at this time and I need less perhaps of what appears to be a flawed, one man crusade for tactile immersion in general.

 

[Michal Burisin]

I spent last week trying out the SSW and figuring out how it works, to be able better comprehend what can be achieved at the moment.

Overall it's great to have software to handle tactile in the first place, on the other hand there is really lot to be desired.

I will move to the dream land with this post where I would try to describe how I think the tactile software should work. With this, there would be no need to combine audio or mix several softwares for the tactile.

Right now I have 2x BK Advance on seat and pedals for testing and I'm using Project Cars 2.

I think the tactile in simracing stands on two basic effects, engine and bumps, at least for me.

1) Engine

SSW is using 50 hz sound for the engine beat by default. It adjusts the volume of the effect based on actual RPM percentage of maximum RPM. This application is oversimplified and could be made so much better.

For example if you have car with minimum 800 RPM (in neutral) and maximum 7000 RPM. It corresponds to.

800 RPM = 13,33 hz
7000 RPM = 116,66 hz

I have tried in Audacity how low frequency feels (down to 7 hz) and its great. Even BK Advance can play this low sound satisfactory (for engine beat). I kept this sound running in the background and switched to game to a car standing in place in neutral and with humming motor. Instantly I really felt presence as the frequency of the buttkickers was matching frequency of the sound the motor was making perfectly. Tactile was handling vibrations and audio was giving the car character.

The software should be able handle this dynamically and match the frequency of the played sound to the frequency of the engine in hz.

I'm working in IT (front end developer) so I'm no programmer per se, but I have some general knowledge regarding programming.

Whether this could be achieved by directly generating the sound frequency for the speaker - preferable.

Or for example having 100 individual wav files with range of sounds from 5 hz to 105 hz and the software could play them individually. It would start playing one file based on actual RPM, just before when the file ends, say 0.005 s before end, it would ask the game telemetry what's the current RPM of the engine and based on this information it would play the next file with corresponding hz.

Or maybe playing one file with fixed frequency set to 1 hz 10 times faster than normal to get 10 hz sound.

There might be problems with latency, but I suppose if it's good enough for precise force feedback and car physics calculations which I think is more demanding, it should be also enough for tactile. There is a question whether shared memory variables are updated with the same frequency as the game is using for physics, ffb etc.

I have commited to getting TST 239 for dual role for engine effect (already ordered splitter & amp etc.). However with how SSW is working I think it's not possible to take advantage of dual role, as I think it plays the same frequency of 50 hz over the whole range of available RPM only with different volume, so it's not possible to separate higher RPMs from lower and send them only to TST239. I suppose this dual role can be only leveraged by adding "audio tactile" to the mix.

2) Bumps

The bump effects should be based mainly (if not only) suspension and its actual position on it's possible travel. I think we get all the feedback from the car going in through the suspension.

Take for example Project Cars 2 telemetry view.

And notice how the suspension moves when going over the kerbs etc. here is link to the video.

The software should generate the actual sound curve exactly in connection with the suspension travel.

This would generate real time feedback for each wheel (shock absorber) and what it is doing. It would have 100 % correct separation between the channels exactly as the game perceives it.

It could also not use the entire range of the gain (volume) sound for the suspension travel, but leave some space, for example last 20 %, for the times when suspension hits the bump stop to get quick bump response.

Right now as the bumps are implemented we cannot get different feeling bumps, as the software is probably taking the information on bump strength and then playing same sound effect with only different volume.

With the approach I described above we could get different feeling for going through longer declination in road which could take for example 0.25 s (4 hz) and have this roller coaster effect if I exaggerate it as opposed to driving over some smaller slow down stripe which would be much quicker response, for example 0.04 s (25 hz).

This could be achieved as described in the engine example above, it's the same principle.

If the suspension travel data shared by game are adequately precise, it would also be able to generate road texture feeling.

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These are my findings / opinions, if it would be ever possible for someone to implement it like this I don't know, I will try to do some further research into it to at least have some general insight about this topic.

Maybe this could be interesting for @=Andre= to read to maybe get some inspiration if he would like to expand SSW functionality in the future, or maybe he could give us some feedback that this not technically possible / why etc. Get it working like this, if possible, would however probably require tremendous amount of time so it might not be viable for implementation with small community like this. Also mainly people with 5.1 setups would benefit the most which is even smaller group... Maybe in time the community will grow and perhaps the game developers implement proper support from the beginning, or it will draw some other player in tactile software field.

If this ever becomes reality, I'm going to get the big Buttkicker LFEs even for the 4 channels for each wheel as these would be able to provide much better response to slow bumps which are experienced quite commonly. This would be also improved with new games having better and more detailed road surfaces, one can only dream what future might bring

---

For now I will be experimenting with what we have right now - SSW setup and files modification. I will now focus more on building the rig - isolation etc., so I can experiment later with setup closer to the final build.

 

[Mr Latte]

Michael the only way to really grasp this better is to have audio hardware that lets you see exactly "when" and "what" the output is for the individual effects. I had many speculations in the past with some people with Simvibe a few years ago but what you discover when monitoring multiple channels is how the telemetry is active and how each axis is operating in real time based on the telemetry from the sim. While Simvibe does nothing to really help in real-time analysis. SSW gives some insight into this via the "log data" but visually it is much more readable via professional audio hardware and software visualization tools. In this perspective, the telemetry values per effect relate to something much more accessible via Hz and dB which we can clearly understand and use for the actual tactile operation.

Some effects operate when you may not think, based on the loads on the car. The suspension can be active from cornering loads, not just bumps. What is key is understanding the various axis and what each effect uses. Typical scenarios on track can have multiple effects operating with several effects active at one time. So part of having good tactile immersion is having "felt sensations" that suit the character/nature of the effect(s). Yet just as important, also having these effects (felt sensation) working and combining well together.

So in creating effect files and being able to monitor and see such operating in real-time, is very beneficial as you can then view the combined frequency output or decide to alter an effect so that it is less lost amongst others that can and do operate at similar times.

SSW default files are simple singular tones, this needs to be taken into account if comparing to Simvibe.

My own view was not to try and "chance" upon good effects but find a basis that worked and could be built upon from understanding the effects operation and what character of sensation worked well with them.

At present we have a good basis (with custom files created) . Just ask @signman how much he now enjoys his tactile with the effects he helped test.


Here is an example of AC with the G Meter being used to see the realtime physics in operation but also my own monitoring of the "Lateral G" effect from SSW tactile. The highlighted areas in the image show activity (blue circle) and then a sudden break/gap (green circle). This gap is the backend of the car going as the G Forces momentarily halt and then sway from one direction to the other. This is also visible via the onscreen G Meter.

Its an example of how in SSW the traction loss can be better detected (even though it has no TL effect) its perhaps the sense of an effect and then no effect that for me is one of the benefits SSW brings over Simvibe. SSW just seems to do a better job with Axis loads based effects. Braking and acceleration can also feel quite incredibly powerful with multiple LFE in operation. I have even had lateral G forces so strong I could feel my brain shaking inside my skull as it used very low Hz but with high levels of energy. You cant get that level of crazyness with the small tactile.

What we need but what is not happening is having Andre take onboard the requested improvements to bring more control mainly for bumps. Tactile needs perhaps more or better controls with the much greater varations possible than what his focus is with regards the Jet Seat.

The engine is not so much the issue with improved files and what your perhaps missing is the differences in "audio tactile" with the detail and character it can bring from each independent car. To what I'd refer to as "load based tactile" from the telemetry that can add the energy sensation from the various axis and also the engine sensatiion. Having good "engine effect" also needs to be combined with the "Longitudinal G" regards acceleration forces and this was one effect that felt odd when it was not well executed. Its still one that can perhaps be improved with more file experimentation but it is also VERY car dependent. This is one reason why the idea of single effects or effect settings for all cars is rather limted also. Different cars can bring quite a change to the felt sensation or potential enjoyment. This is before we even consider looking at other sims than AC.

SSW has huge potential, with more developed .wav files. The "bumps issue" is not complicated.
I believe Andre could easily amend SSW to bring what has been requested. Individual .wav and the current controls for sml/large bumps would be, in my view sufficient. It would dramatically allow for better bump potential in some if not all the sims.

As really the issue, is allowing the user to determine the difference between "suspension impacts" and road surface feel. Just as Simvibe brings "Roadbumps" and "Suspension Bumps" independently yet both likely use similar telemetry but in different ways.

It's clear having a single bump solution is not quite adequate

The community HAS quite a large number of people with multiple tactile and they already use or enjoy Simvibe. It is this potential market that Andre does not seem to be attracting in offering what is deemed a better software solution and one that has a modern, simple to use user interface. He needs us the community to bring better files, but also there should be possibly greater emphasis on his part to listen to what the community pushing effects creation for SSW wants or needs.

What I personally have not done is look into other sims with SSW than AC.
With the tools I have, it would easily let me see and understand in more detail how the differences between each are. Its time consuming and that for me was something for further down the road but I have been keen to hear from people, their impressions and understand potentially what sim(s) produced the best front/back based bumps.

Lets keep in mind that really an owner of a "seat mover" motion rig or a "GS4" cant properly represent, but only something with 4 DOF or (multichannel tactile) in the form of Simvibe CM or SSW Front & Rear Stereo potentially can.

Simvibe has a problem in that it's easy to have so many different effects operating the user cant really tell any significant or particular effects operation. I even seen this with the "stereo bumps" issue with users of SSW and them not quite sensing when stereo or when bumps were mono. Part of that is potentially their own cockpit installations.

For my own build having feedback for this was valuable and finding out which 2 of the current Sims produced the best telemetry detailing or tactile effects especially for front/back and stereo bump activity. Its a huge part of my own build. I believe its possible that a tactile based rig could produce more "usable" immersion than a motion rig based on the felt cues and sensations from the multiple effects.

Proof of this would be improved laptimes from the tactile and I've found personally that I certainly can go faster with my tactile on than having none. Yet I cant say for motion sim users if that moving around and the immersion it brings benefits or takes away from potential lap times.

Such, could form interesting discussion and debate but likely end in flame wars.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Michal Burisin

SSW Engine Beat 2

Previously we did not have an rpm limit sensation that can greatly add to engine immersion.
Andre added this based on suggestions and comments.

While he did not enable us to have an independent volume control for this effect here is an example of previous evaluation I did towards individual car profiles and possibilities of cars having more varation in engine sensations. It is also possible to have some cars produce increased gain for the rpm limit sensation based on the amplitude given to the .wav used.

Lets face it an old-school V12 F1 Ferrari should not feel like a GT3 car. So the potential in bringing be it baked realism is possible to at least have sensations more representable to certain car types. Simvibe allocates the start/stop Hz for engine harmonics based on the scale of the rpm range. 16K rpm should not feel the same as a car with 8K rpm but with only differences potentially in their volume.

So again one effect fits all is not an ideal solution as is the default files.
Simvibe at least brings possible variation, at present SSW doesn't but this does not mean we cannot create individual car profiles for specific types of cars or indeed individual cars to better represent them or indeed if desired try to mimic what Simvibe does.



Same car VERY different usage of Hz and dB for max RPM sensations

Being able to see the exact Hz and learning how different Hz feel is all part of being able to create better effect files. Doing such by feel alone is not ideal, especially as lots of people have difficulty determining different Hz to the same singular Hz being output but just with increased gain.

What we benefit with seeing the effects in operation is seeing not just the fundamental tones the effect has but also the real-time harmonics they generate. By this we can create different characters from the sensation to also work in tandem with the "audio-tactile" engine sensations bringing often real recordings but backing these up with additional engine energy vibration suited to the type of car or its rpm range.

Simvibe uses a simple scaled variation for the "fundamental frequency" regards engine harmonics of 5Hz between each V4, V6, V8, V10, V12. This keeps the rpm within a suitable Hz range but brings different Hz values for each cars own rpm. So not only does each car have higher rpm range but 5K rpm in each is different.

It would be easy to apply a similar concept if creating "car profiles" as a basis to having variation in SSW for engines. I already have committed time to this.

So trust me when I say your concerns or if using a standard SSW singular tone is not a good example of what we still can potentially do with SSW engines and with audio-tactile combined.

For me I have concerns protecting my own research and efforts, so all is not widely available because of the current limitations within SSW. However I do not see on these forums much interest in "car profiles" or the potential of taking tactile to these extremes. Such is maybe best reserved for my own cockpit or a select group who are in pursuit of greater tactile immersion.

 

[Mr Latte]

Sent you a few effects Michal, including a new engine set I was working on.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Sent you a few effects Michal, including a new engine set I was working on.

Many thanks! I can't wait to try these effects when I get back from work tomorrow! I will reply to your latest posts tomorrow as well.

 

[sparrowz]

I have even had lateral G forces so strong I could feel my brain shaking inside my skull as it used very low Hz but with high levels of energy. You cant get that level of crazyness with the small tactile.

How low of hz are we talking about? I don't really have the most powerful setup, but using the default g forces seem a little high frequency in ssw.

 

[Mr Latte]

How low of hz are we talking about? I don't really have the most powerful setup, but using the default g forces seem a little high frequency in ssw.

Indeed, the default effects as stated are basic and single pure/tones. They can work on a wide range of tactile models but certainly, do not show the potential possible if we learn to create and use custom. Wav effects. Of course the level of hardware is also key but those with BK Gamers / Mini LFE or lesser equivalents, let's keep things in perspective, these are entry-level models.

Many of the affordable models will perform best around 40Hz, yet below this they, start to tail off as they just can't generate the bandwidth energy required with the lower Hz. So if you create effects with such low Hz and have a model that cannot bring much energy with them the user will not feel much.

As mentioned many times before I have even found this in comparing the $549 TST 429 with its more limited low-frequency energy potential compared to the BK LFE. An effect for braking using the lowest frequencies, can feel MIGHTY on the biggest LFE yet have very little response from the TST 429.

For the users with the common tactile (sub $99 models) test how 40hz compares to 80Hz (x2.0) or even 60Hz (x1.5) and consider how each feels in comparison? The user will find much more satisfaction with the energy at 40hz. So we find the same applies when going from 40Hz down to under 20hz or 10Hz, if of course, the unit can sufficiently handle it. The level of energy and depth is much, much greater with the increased bandwidth these frequencies have, therefore vibrations and energy will travel further too and can move quite large amounts of mass if desired.

 

[sparrowz]

30-40hz had the most effect on my budget adx Maximus. I'll have to try non simple times, but I don't really know what I'm doing. Those 20hz tones, while weaker, are fun to use.

 

[Mr Latte]

30-40hz had the most effect on my budget adx Maximus. I'll have to try non simple times, but I don't really know what I'm doing. Those 20hz tones, while weaker, are fun to use.

What do you mean "non simple times"?

Lower Hz with good energy brings more realism or at least a better sense of replicating some sensations.

"Lateral G" is one such example as is "Longitudinal G".
SSW brings some effects similar to a "GS4" motion seats operation. Some of the benefits that Simvibe does not seem to offer. "Jet Seat" works with SSW in a similar manner. So we can replicate what a "GS4" does but instead of with paddles using limited motion or limited energy in what a "Jet Seat" can offer.

Instead do so with potentially very deep and forceful tactile frequencies. I am talking here about taking things to a completely different level (than with common tactile). Something that few are doing or certainly no sim racing cockpit company offers. Each unit can be strategically used with the creation and execution of the effects within SSW. This is one reason I see .wav effects creation and how SSW can output effects has benefits over Simvibe for potentially better immersion.





Note how both GS4 and Jetseat use the "front" and "back" of the seat for "Longitudinal" effects but also only "Mono" in the base for the seat "bumps". We can go beyond this with tactile and SSW effects creation by placing effects in any of the supported 6 channels. Also incorporating a high-quality tactile arrangement in the pedal sections. This extends much better the "Longitudinal" axis and its relevant effects. Incorporating additional body regions and bringing more sensory involvement for potentially more detailed immersion and not limited only to a seat.

Some may like a limited buzz a "Jetseat" can offer, as it is sensory and enjoyable. Others have held the "GS4" in high regards to what it brings with motion. My own pursuit is bettering what either can bring regards not just "fun immersion" but sensing and be feeling more the car's behavior and handling. I believe based on my own experimentation thus far, using a high-end installation with clever usage of tactile and combined with well-crafted effects, "Car Profiles" have untapped potential with having "individual effects characteristics" for specific types of cars. Bringing not just good immersion but a greater depth of detailed or unique immersion for different car types. This is what I am pursuing and seems something nobody has really tried to delve into.


G'ssssss: n Bassssss
If swaying a cars steering from left-right you can feel a strong sensation of transverse energy. So we want plenty of weight/depth to this as it positions itself, flowing from one side to the other (with a stereo installation). Thus using frequencies that have much greater bandwidth to achieve the sense and depth or G Load. Here the BK LFE seems to be king if someone wants the best sensation with this.

Obviously, it's more convincing with greater, harder felt weight to the sensation. Keep in mind, however a mix of lower Hz and importantly the combined harmonics these will generate brings much more sensation than mid or high bass tones will. You have to also take into account harmonics and how surrounding frequencies operate with tones.

Example:

Going with the flow? Lots of low-frequency energy and included harmonics upto @35Hz (good bass) Vs not so much with limited bass energy and midrange bass frequencies.

While we are not physically moving like in a motion rig, the level of tactile energy can be very usable for our sensory input to help feel what the car's handling is doing.

My own goal is not to just add tactile for "amusement" but have effects and an installation that adds to the feedback. So it places me more "in the car", as to what its handling is doing. Our brains, muscular tissue, nerves and senses soaking this all in, bringing the visual, audio and steering inputs with the tactile working together and combined.

Much of having any success with this, is down to how we also execute what represents the effects. Having top hardware with poor effects be it, SSW or indeed Simvibe even on a perfectly installed rig will not help immersive the user in a very satisfactory way or bring sensory input to improve thier driving.

Discovering and creating good effect sensations on more than just average hardware totally will enhance the potential. A user reading this with 4 or even 8 Mini LFE using Simvibe isn't close to the true potential we can extract from some effects.

My own view based from 10 years of messing around with this stuff on/off is that for good tactile, the level of "immersion" is more reliant on the "Quality" of the unit and the effects. The "Quanity" in having more but of less, does not exceed having less of something greater. Of course good installation is also important.

Gradually more and more people are seeking to purchase models like the BK Advance. Ive talked with at least 5 in recent months via PM. So some are starting with one or even two of these, compared to buying say 4x Mini LFE and the hype that once went with the idea of Simvibe "Chassis Mode".


Wattage Vs Frequency Bandwidth:
Some get confused with wattage and the varying bandwidth energy lower frequencies bring.

For a test, feel free to try 40Hz with moderate volume, then 80Hz but with twice the volume.
Which feels better?

The higher frequency even with double the wattage will not bring the same representation if anything the user will find that they will pass beyond the comfort level and tolerances for that frequency and whatever reverb it may create based on the materials involved in the users build and the isolation if any are present.

So reading of people, stating their cockpit can shake like crazy with something like Aura Pro. No offense but they really have no idea on what true subharmonic tactile energy is. Indeed their cockpit is perhaps shaking like crazy by exceeding a wattage thats "comfortable" for the "midrange bass frequency" their unit is limited too. As the user increases the gain, then the Hz that the unit produces best will be the dominant frequency. The problem here, is commonly @40Hz is not a low frequency by any means in the reality of audio.


This Again

Lets put 40-50Hz into perspective even though many people with the common tactile can enjoy and relate to it feeling quite good. See the scale of what is missing in comparison to the potential larger or improved tactile models can bring.

Bottom line, their is only so much we can bring or do with tactile that have much less limited energy or a very restrictive usable frequency range that feels good.

Bk Advance (Yellow) is currently the best bang for buck and brings enjoyable immersion. It's likely the best-suited unit to consider for multichannel tactile if starting to seek in my view proper high performance. Several people on these forums have rigs built around this model.

Good effects can still be created for the common tactile models and with decent effects in SSW I still believe many Simvibe users would find an alternative that has its own benefits. The problem is people with multichannel configurations using them are not willing to get involved with those models to help with testing for them. I've asked several times but few bother or put much effort into it.

I will share on the forums, my own build, with gradual progress as I begin starting to put together a new seat section that is unlike anything Ive seen done before.

 

[sparrowz]

Whoops... I meant to say I need to try "non-simple" tones. So far I've only played around with simple frequencies, since I don't know much about harmonics.

40hz vs 80 definitely has the better feeling. I can see how lower frequencies with better equipment would feel better, but I need to work with what I have for now.

 

[Mr Latte]

Whoops... I meant to say I need to try "non-simple" tones. So far I've only played around with simple frequencies, since I don't know much about harmonics.

40hz vs 80 definitely has the better feeling. I can see how lower frequencies with better equipment would feel better, but I need to work with what I have for now.

How many ADX are you running, what configuration you using?
About Harmonics
About Waveforms

This helped me to grasp things better a few years ago.

 

[sparrowz]

How many ADX are you running, what configuration you using?

Cool I'll be sure to check the video out when I get home.

I'm using 2 ADX currently with A)one under my seat and B)one on the spine. A gets bumps, deceleration, and shifts. B gets acceleration, lateral (both), and engine ( very subtle).

 

[Hiro Abe]

My advice regards your own issue of reverb with certain Hz is to play around with the "Crossover" with a flat EQ. You can use "White Noise" or general audio from the sim to have a full flow of frequencies being used. What you can do is limit exactly what Hz go out of the amp. You could have 60-80Hz only being output if you wanted to test for reverb with that small but specific 20Hz range and then do the same for other ranges. This lets you evaluate how or what each Hz range brings in the immersion it generates. You may find that over 90Hz brings little in felt response. Yet you may find some Hz are too strong and need to be dialled back or others like the lowest Hz you may want to boost.

I started to play with the crossover as you recommended and I now understand it's role as opposed to what I was doing with PEQ. I still have more playing around to do. I kind of jumped the gun and tried my hand at creating a custom wav for engine beat but my first attempt didn't work out too well in that I created one but it turned out worse than what comes with SSW. I think I have to stick to taking this in steps and be more methodical.

Interesting stuff indeed. Unfortunately for my wallet, it is starting me to consider investing in a couple of BK Advanced to go with my LFE to up the ante with my seat. I think I should first look into implementing isolation though. Need to rethink how I have my seat attached since in its current state, I really can't implement isolation. Time for another 8020 order!

 

[Hiro Abe]

Tried feeding the audio stream to my TST but didn't work out too well. I think the buzziness issue I'm having with the TST on my pedal frame is too limiting in regards to a frequency range. I can see/feel how it might be a good solution if I isolate the pedal frame but for now, it looks like I'll have to control it with crossover and PEQ settings a la my DSP.

 

[Mr Latte]

Tried feeding the audio stream to my TST but didn't work out too well. I think the buzziness issue I'm having with the TST on my pedal frame is too limiting in regards to a frequency range. I can see/feel how it might be a good solution if I isolate the pedal frame but for now, it looks like I'll have to control it with crossover and PEQ settings a la my DSP.

Keep in mind if you use "Full Range Audio" as a source to test with these TST units they can create vibration upto 800Hz. So having much more harmonics from a "music/audio source" and not a "bandwidth limited source" such as SSW or Simvibe effects output makes a BIG difference to what they will attempt to generate in tactile.

A simple test to do with this unit when connected to "full audio source" is, goto the soundcards EQ and drop everything say from 250Hz upwards to lowest settings. BAM you now limit what the unit is going to output. However, on the soundcard, the EQ works the same way on all main channels so isn't always ideal if we want a specific EQ control for a single unit or channel.


We will get you better settings for all this, but I think its good you play around yourself a little first and discover things. Keep sharing your progress and experiences.

Another way you can play around with this and say with music playing via the TST is keep a flat EQ on the soundcard. Load up the iNuke and as the music is playing mess around with the crossover, with a slope, then position it across different frequencies.

We can have profiles made in the iNuke DSP set with EQ/Crossover etc to enjoy usage of "Sim Tactile" or with "Music" etc.

Improvements can be made here but we need to consider isolation.
Also tests with materials like Dynamat and my own isolation ideas are something I am going to be doing hopefully within the next 4-6 weeks. Have purchased a few items but still more to get and get stuck into some experimentation for my own rig.

 

[Hiro Abe]

So after a bunch of fiddling about, I'm at a good place with my LFE and SSW's bumps. It is dialed back a bit until I employ some isolation to my seat but I'm liking the feedback I'm getting. The TST mounted to my pedals is just too restricted by the noise it induces at certain frequencies and levels. I use it solely for engine beat and it doesn't do anything at idle. When I get going, it comes in decently but the OCD in me wants that feedback during idle. I'm also now understanding how the engine beat is implemented and the stock waveform is not great though I think I can live with it after a planned change...

The good news is I have uncovered how I can mount my TST directly to my seat. I think this will really give me the feedback I'm looking for. Hopefully, I can get this done by next weekend to do some initial testing then experimenting.

Slowly getting there!

Forgot to mention: Most of my sim testing has been between iRacing, R3E and AC. All three required slight adjustments within SSW's settings which is fine since those adjustments are saved per sim. My base settings in my DSP stay static.

 

[Mr Latte]

Do a video of the TST noise....
Is it installation reverb etc or the actual audio output of the unit you want to address?

I was working on a new wheel-slip effect this week but one of the things with the TST being like speakers as well is that its possible to have the effect when active generate annoying tone/hum with certain higher frequencies.

This isnt heard so much on a BK or some other transducers but in creating the effect we need it to not annoy the heck out of users. So some care is needed in the amplitude we place with certain Hz regards effects creation and for the TST models.