Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

Depending on what wants finer control,
perhaps Autocalibration would compensate for differences in cars, tracks and driving styles.
Meanwhile, adjusting proxyG CUSTOM EFFECT gain so that it occasionally reaches 100
should help the other effects.
Considering differences between 4 separately driven pucks
and mixing those signals to mono in several layers for a serious LFE transducer,
I continue to be amazed that it translates at all usefully.

The issue with the response curve is that its not offering its whole range but for some reason only a small part of it. Try setting the 4 corner effect to only come in at 50% or 70% of the threshold. The signal coming in also seems very low as can be seen on the "Live Effects" window.

The "Response Curve" is a handy feature for creating specific layers to activate at different stages based on the telemetry values and like other effects allow. The Gamma factor if it needs set at a level you think specifically improves this effect then let us know.

I have temporarily set up my digital mixer to enable activity comparisons of the following.

Your 4 Wheel / Corner effect operating in 3 ways.



Very seldom do you have only 1 of the 4 wheels active, often yes you get that diagonal between front and rear or lateral activity. A user with a mono installation in my view could feel the feedback from all 4 combined into a mono chassis representation of their activity.

I will compare the 4 into 1 channel Vs Mono spatialization setting.

One of the benefits of the 4-1 option is that if the user applies lower Hz then (4) responses will increase the amplitude which may help with certain Hz used to give us more boldness/body to be used for the effect layer representing a high level of slip. This could help get around the shortcomings of the limited usable frequency range on some units by helping to feel a bit more range.

Users do not necessarily need positional placement of slip activity but it operating as a cue for how much slip is being generated. If they can feel a wider range of interaction in its activity, nicer quality in the sensations then as a driving aid it can be a useful tool.

I would like to be able to have unique effect layers offer different felt sensations generated at
Under 30%
Above 30%
Above 70%

Also Possibly
Above 90%

 

[Mr Latte]

Here is a quick visual reference:

You can see the rear wheels in action from an initial burnout and the 4 wheels individual activity to the right.

On the far left, you see the spatialization set to MONO.
You can compare the activity of the 4 INTO 1 and see that they appear to be much the same, or very similar in their activity.

As I pointed out above, we see more gain being generated with the 4 into 1 method. This very much likely, a result of the compounding amplitude of 4 operating channels being output to just one.

Of course, a user can set "effects" how they please but these kinds of tests and monitoring are interesting when seeking to build better operating and quality of effects. I want to and enjoy covering all options anyways.

Click for shakycam video...


I dont see an issue with the 4-1 option being used, based on what I see here when comparing to using MONO spatialization.

A user with a large, low-frequency capable transducer working with exciters.
Could in my view have, a potentially better working/feeling wheelslip than a user with 4 wheel config.

I say this based on the potential of the "quality" and larger operating range of the effect being represented by more capable (1-200Hz) hardware.

This in comparison to someone using 4x of lesser capable units and probably only getting limited stereo representation anyways based on their installation and crosstalk issues. Also with much less usable frequencies we can implement into effects they can feel.


For a longtime people's mindsets with tactile have been subject to Simvibe style CM installations....

"Oh I need 4 way to get the best immersion” but really do you?

Much to be said about Quality Vs Quantity when it comes to tactile and creating effects that can bring out the pros of each approach.

 

[blekenbleu]

The issue with the response curve is that its not offering its whole range but for some reason only a small part of it. Try setting the 4 corner effect to only come in at 50% or 70% of the threshold. The signal coming in also seems very low as can be seen on the "Live Effects" window.

OK, here are some quick experiments.
4-corner loaded slip effect broken into separate load and conditioned slip effects:

Both loads (frequently) and slips (very rarely, unless e.g. drifting) yield full scale values.

Here are conditioned slip and WHEELS SLIP, as provided by SimHub:

SimHub delivers full scale values for what are IMO quite minor and controllable slips.

Here are SimHub WHEEL SLIPS filtered to approximate IMO usefully conditioned slip values:

Note that this required reducing SimHub WHEEEL SLIPS gain to 1/100 and applying 3.8 gamma..
My next profile revision will

• add separate wheel load CUSTOM EFFECT which exports wheel load properties
• add GitHub WHEEL SLIP exporting output values as properties, so that it can be tuned to taste
• modify current (3) loaded wheel slip CUSTOM EFFECTs to use those tunable properties.

Click for shakycam video

I only just now sorted that some of your images are actually videos
- they do not by default play in my browser..

 

[Mr Latte]

Yes the "Live Effects" lets you see activity and can help but it gives you no indication of true dB differences in felt output. So we need to base what changes made do to the actual felt output.


I will investigate the "Threshold" operation regards "Wheelslip"

Comparing your custom effect to the standard Wheelslip effect (4 V 4)
Seems the issue is not perhaps just with your own custom file.

So I am monitoring all 4 corners with increments of 1 in threshold differences

Viewing/monitoring:
Threshold 1-8 to see how it alters the activity.

*Note any videos, are just basic via my image host service.

 

[blekenbleu]

Updated 4 March: loaded slips use proxy load and slip properties, which can be tuned to user preference. Specifically, included slip properties are tuned for IMO realistic slips,
which are only rarely near 100 (uncontrolled).
loadedWheelslip.siprofile.txt

Yes the "Live Effects" lets you see activity and can help but it gives you no indication of true dB differences in felt output. So we need to base what changes made do to the actual felt output.

You may want to increase gain and reduce gamma for the included WHEELS SLIP property generator to provoke more frequently dynamic output from loaded slip CUSTOM EFFECTS which use it.

 

[Mr Latte]

You may want to increase gain and reduce gamma for the included WHEELS SLIP property generator to provoke more frequently dynamic output from loaded slip CUSTOM EFFECTS which use it.

With the "Live Effects" it's hard to see if there is only 1-2mm of activity but the way I have my midi controller setup, I can see a flash on the LEDs with the most minimal activity.

Here are some findings from the tests.

Response Curve
I spent a while increasing the threshold a single digit at a time and testing the car with minor to large activity events. Went all the way up to value of 33 doing this.

With this current 4 wheel custom effect, what I noticed was, any threshold beyond 9 is really only active with donuts and spins. So its a small window we have to use for the primary slip/load events.

So I decided to skip every other threshold for lower values and used these thresholds.
1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9 to enable a progressive output potentially for different layers.

The other issue I mentioned a few days ago was seemingly activity with the car at idle.
So as you suggested, I then went through each of these layers to determine what value in gain was needed to prevent any activity when stationary.

I ended up with gain levels that went from 105 upto 500 using the metering to determine and confirming with the live output.

So I think we now have moved a step closer in making this work with controlled layers for min-max, slip and load values.

 

[blekenbleu]

I ended up with gain levels that went from 105 upto 500 using the metering to determine and confirming with the live output.

I suppose that this refers to gain level in the "loaded wheel slips for each corner" CUSTOM EFFECT,
which mostly compensates for typically low output from "generate poxyS wheel slip properties" WHEELS SLIP. Increasing gain there instead would also correspondingly affect the two other loaded wheel slip effects and increase granularity of thresholds for layers.

Since unadjusted SimHub WHEELS SLIP output is, IMO, peculiar for Assetto Corsa
and seemingly ACC, I wonder whether that output is different/better in other games.

 

[Mr Latte]

I suppose that this refers to gain level in the "loaded wheel slips for each corner" CUSTOM EFFECT,
which mostly compensates for typically low output from "generate poxyS wheel slip properties" WHEELS SLIP. Increasing gain there instead would also correspondingly affect the two other loaded wheel slip effects and increase granularity of thresholds for layers.

Since unadjusted SimHub WHEELS SLIP output is, IMO, peculiar for Assetto Corsa
and seemingly ACC, I wonder whether that output is different/better in other games.

I don't quite grasp what your saying, need it in more layman's terms. I have not yet looked at the other options you offered with Lateral and Front/Rear. Do these work differently or use elements from the 4Way option?

Most of my testing is done in ACC and previously AC so I can't offer much on other titles.

What I did do earlier today as well, was to save a profile I can compare the output of your 4 Way Vs Simhubs own 4 Way slip effect.

At an early look, activity appeared similar but not always, and if anything more active with your own, but I assume that is due to the operating load and not just slip activity?

What I will do is spend a bit more time with this to share an effect using some layers with different thresholds and frequencies. That way others can try it in any of the spatialization options or 4 into 1.

 

[blekenbleu]

need it in more layman's terms

The most recent revision added two effects, specifically to generate load and slip properties:

The first effect, which generates proxies for accelerations, is unchanged.

The next two are new. These replace load and slip calculations
previously built into the bottom 3 CUSTOM EFFECTS.
This allows changing filters in those second two effects
to directly control strengths of loads and slips
before they are multiplied to yield loaded slips in the bottom 3 effects.
As provided, filter settings approximate responses built into previous versions,
with WHEELS SLIP property filter gain reduced from SimHub's default 100/100 to 1/100,
and a gamma of 3.8 approximates the previous log(1 + slip) compression
fixed in previous versions of CUSTOM loaded slip effects.

As provided, the fourth effect, when fed into my 4-puck cushion,
still signals wheel(s) approaching grip limits.
For example, it helps sort threshold braking and oversteer.
SimHub's WHEEL SLIPS, as provided, are IMO useless for driver feedback,
having saturated long before grip limits are reached.

For your purposes,
higher gain and lower gamma in that WHEELS SLIP properties effect may be preferred
for improving dynamic range among layers that you are creating.

 

[Mr Latte]

OK, here are some quick experiments.
4-corner loaded slip effect broken into separate load and conditioned slip effects:
View attachment 451226
Both loads (frequently) and slips (very rarely, unless e.g. drifting) yield full scale values.

Here are conditioned slip and WHEELS SLIP, as provided by SimHub:
View attachment 451227
SimHub delivers full scale values for what are IMO quite minor and controllable slips.

Here are SimHub WHEEL SLIPS filtered to approximate IMO usefully conditioned slip values:
View attachment 451228
Note that this required reducing SimHub WHEEEL SLIPS gain to 1/100 and applying 3.8 gamma..
My next profile revision will

• add separate wheel load CUSTOM EFFECT which exports wheel load properties
• add GitHub WHEEL SLIP exporting output values as properties, so that it can be tuned to taste
• modify current (3) loaded wheel slip CUSTOM EFFECTs to use those tunable properties.

I only just now sorted that some of your images are actually videos
- they do not by default play in my browser..

Was looking closer into those Live responses.
Should I wait on you to come up with these options before proceeding with offering something via the current method?

I think it may best to see what these bring and then compare but let me know on timescale or if you are going to proceed with these options/findings?

Personally having individual control of "slip" and "load" as independent effects would offer the user more tuning to taste. Also from my perspective let us create individual felt character with each effect. So then a user can define this and determine how each feels. Also, what gain they apply to one or the other when both are mixed/active and coming out of the channels being used.

Am I making sense, thoughts?

 

[blekenbleu]

Should I wait on you to come up with these options
before proceeding with offering something via the current method?

Those options have already been included.

from my perspective let us create individual felt character with each effect.

That was my understanding;
separate slip tuning turns out to be somewhat useful even for my application,
but load tuning is IMO superfluous; acceleration tuning works better.

 

[Mr Latte]

Clearly I get confused, much easier to discuss when effects have names or numbers in the description. I thought this was some new revision.

You need to give each clear/simple description for their operation.
Or how they are coded to operate differently.


I have been working on an RPM for @anton_Chez today for the Mini Quake
Will upload it later but needs very different output volumes for different layers when used on different units. For example the settings for the Mini Quake (with the Hz used in each layer) need VERY different volumes when tested on my TST 429.

 

[Mr Latte]

Okay so here is an example of a multilayer response curve-based engine.
This was created in about 1-2 hours on the Earthquake Sound MQB1

I have left the volumes for each layer all at 50% to see what volumes
@anton_Chez will end up using for the mix he or other MQB1 owners like.

Also to see, if he finds this works well on his rig. This was the first I used the unit and it is quite impressive for its size.

Note:
These effects have not been tested on different units and some will likely not have much output with specific layers contained.



Download, rename / remove the ".txt" and place in Simub folder as .siprofile

 

[blekenbleu]

Download, rename

Is there an easier technique for moving effects within and among SimHub profiles, other than using a text editor?

• Hold mouse cursor over effect title to raise Copy effect to clipboard icon, e.g.:
  
• Paste effect icon will appear:
  
• move an effect by dragging mouse cursor over 2x4 dot column at the right of effect:
  

 

[John Bruno]

Some assistance please. Calling on the wise and knowledgeable Mr Latte or anyone else that can chime in.

I have 4 daex32ep-4 exciters connected to a Behringer EPQ304 (each exciter on it's own channel). Connection to the amp is through 4 neutrik nl4fx 4 pole connectors.

I tried connecting 1 additional exciter (as a test) through the empty ports on the neutrik connector, so 2 exciters on one channel. Doesn't seem to work. Also tried reversing the wires positive / negative ports and nothing. Any ideas? Have I missed something?

 

[blekenbleu]

The Visaton unit I think is very much similar to the Monacor AR50
I have it but wasn't that impressed with it.

BS 130-4 resonance is not nearly its advertised 25Hz, closer to 55hz.
My sample's piston seems poorly centered;
oriented for horizontal piston movement, it responds down to 15Hz
with wires exiting the case between 10 and 2 o'clock, but not in other rotations.

After break-in for a few hours with 30Hz tone, 20-25Hz response has become more useful,
but 15Hz remains the lower limit for any sensation. Response is highly orientation-sensitive,
ranging from mildly perceptible to piston pang for the same 20Hz drive signal.

After a few more hours, response could be sensed down to 11.5Hz,
but still varying from barely to piston panging depending on orientation.
BS 130-4 response is both underdamped and non-linear:
more power is required to provoke than maintain response at lower frequencies,
which resulting in sluggish response to stimulus changes.
In that, it behaves somewhat more similarly to e.g. rumble motors than exciters.
At least for relatively low mass structures, the DAEX32EP is more efficient but heats more quickly.

 

[blekenbleu]

Have I missed something

Just because those connectors have 4 poles does not imply that an EPQ304 supports more than two.
Nothing in Behringer's documentation suggests that an EPQ304 supports more than a single speaker per speakON connector. Also, since EPQ304 power output does not double from 8 to 4 Ohm load,
that suggests that it is current-limited and liable to be unhappy with a 2 Ohm load.

 

[John Bruno]

Just because those connectors have 4 poles does not imply that an EPQ304 supports more than two.
Nothing in Behringer's documentation suggests that an EPQ304 supports more than a single speaker per speakON connector. Also, since EPQ304 power output does not double from 8 to 4 Ohm load,
that suggests that it is current-limited and liable to be unhappy with a 2 Ohm load.

Makes perfect sense. Although I did get them to work by connecting both exciters to pole 1 positive and negative, I'm not keen on damaging anything and will revert back to single exciter per channel. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[metalnwood]

An interesting thing I just found (or maybe not to many) was that I tried to use my etymotic earphones for some racing today.

The reason was that I thought my fans would keep me cooler with these (being in ear) than my over the ear ones and that they would do a better job of blocking the sound from the loud blowers I use for fans.

They won on all accounts.. I wouldnt generally wear them for long times because of the discomfort after a while as I never got any molded ear inserts for them.

What wasn't expected was the sound from the tactile that came though. Normally you feel it but dont really hear it so much. With the almost total noise isolation the in ear monitors give you, you could also hear the vibration and it was quite loud and annoying.

Of course I am keeping my tactile and will keep using my headphones but I did find it interesting.

 

[Mr Latte]

Is there an easier technique for moving effects within and among SimHub profiles,
other than using a text editor?

Well this isn't exactly hard, but I didn't want to use personal cloud storage which I suppose would mean not having to alter the file. As for importing into Simhub, it would be nice if the software auto-detected most recent profiles or some easier way to load them without importing searching manually.

You can however load a profile, then use the copy to clipboard feature to copy either a single file or group folder with multiple files. Once added to the clipboard, Then you can load a different or previous user profile and paste the files on the clipboard into that profile.

So that makes it possible to add any test effects to a profile you may already have.
Then save them as a new profile.

I plan to share a slip/load multiplayer variant later today.
However, the level of feedback for effects is often very poor on these forums. Well based on previous attempts and we very seldom see others offering their own to try.

Considering the shared concept I offered goes back to 2019. We have some people that have owned the recommended exciters and large BK for months, some I personally helped with their builds or installations.

Others will have bought into this approach and will be new to it, so are still learning. Yet how many of them, with up to months having passed by, have come back here, to share what effects settings/findings or experimentation they have found worked well or they enjoy?

I have not had tactile even running for months until just recently as people know. I am not in a position at the moment with a finished or fully working rig build. So I cant really offer full profiles until I get my own rig ready and tactile installed.

Yeah, perhaps it would be nice to have some form of a place to share upload/download and offer files that are, user-approved created to work well on specific hardware. I have thought about such but honestly too often the lack of input from others is so limited. Quite a lot of effect ideas I have looked into over the last year and I want to explore more and I understand some here just want to race and enjoy the tactile, not spend hours seeking to create effects.


New Exciter
I also have ordered another exciter variant that has not been mentioned or tried before.
Will compare it to the others in the near future.