Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Brutal Deluxe]

So I am at a crossroads with my exciters...

I have the DAEX32EP-4 and am currently running 6 until I get the rest of my amps to further progress along this journey. So far I have RMA'd 2 of them, as they started to get very noisy over time. Its a sort of rattle, that seems to be associated with the actual build of the device. I tested this by moving this in different locations on the seat and getting the same result for noise. Here are my settings

My settings:
Amps Vol: 50%
Soundcard Vol: 50%
Computer Vol: 50% (though I think this is synonymous to the soundcard vol)
Master Volue in Simhub: 50-55% per channel
Effects: These are relevant but for this example, we will use Kerb effects (45%)

Now Parts Express was kind enough to send me new ones while allowing me to keep the old ones to see if we could figure out the issue. The new ones worked great....until they didn't. In the last few days, I now am experiencing the same "rattle" effect on one of the new ones that I received. Since these replaced the old ones, the location and effects being applied are the same, but this time we are only getting a 50% failure rate.

At first, I thought maybe it was frequency related, so I tried the tone generator, and while one side had no issues peaking and stayed well within its shaking ability, the other one even with the slightest volume started to rattle.

So the question is, am I getting lemons, or is this truly user error? Is there a possibility that the adhesion could be causing this issue? The reason I bring this up is that once I barely touch the exciter while it is being activated, the rattle does go away. I would like to figure this out so that I can either continue to go down this path or find new exciters or transducers as replacements for long term use. I should also mention that this entire project and all 3 exciters I have had issues with has spanned only over about 3-4 weeks.

I've only had one exciter go bad, as I ran it too hard at fairly low Hz. If you tap each exciter, they should make a satisfying thud. My broken one didn't and I could tell straight away that it was dead. The only rattling issues I've had were from cables being loose against the seat. I'd secured them with car wrapping vinyl but needed to add more to resolve the issue. Just something to be aware of. Hope you get it solved.

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

SimHub continues to impress me. As well as running tactile through it, I started using it for a dash. I'd been using an old tablet but had the odd wi-fi connection issue, so bought a cheap screen that would connect direct to PC via HDMI.

Through SimHub I also have control of the master volume mapped to a dial on my button box. I put this in place as a safety measure, so I could shut it off quickly if I need to. However, I do use it an odd time to turn things down slightly when it suits (Imola in iRacing is crazy bumpy for no apparent reason). On doing this, I can now see the master volume pop up at the top of the dash! Pretty certain this wasn't happening when I had the tablet connected via wi-fi. Really handy, especially when trying to set it back to 50% and being uncertain how many clicks I've turned it.

 

[DM77]

Hi guys, I'm starting to get a bit confused with cabling now. My Behringer EPQ304 4 channel amp arrived today, and I'm planning on getting the T.racks DSP Mini https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_t.racks_dsp_4x4_mini.htm

I currently have a pair of Dayton exciters on order DAEX32EP-4, with the intention of probably getting another pair in a few weeks, so the Behringer will end up driving 4 exciters.

Am I thinking along the right lines here? And if someone has done this, can they please direct me to the right types of cables to hook up the sound card to the T.racks DSP? My Creative card has 3x 2.5mm jacks for FL/FR Cen/Sub / RL/RR.

I'm wondering if I might have to treat each input into the DSP as mono instead of stereo, and send the audio signal out as two channels out from my on-board audio and two channels out from my sound card....

Or can I just treat the FL/FR output as a stereo pair to feed inputs 1 and 2 into the DSP, and the RL/RR output jack to feed inputs 3 and 4 into the DSP?

I want to avoid buying a mass of different types of cables and connectors because it will make it difficult to troubleshoot if either me or the hardware is doing something wrong!

Would I need two of these from the sound card to the T.Racks DSP?

3.5mm Mini STEREO Jack to 2x 6.35mm 1: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics

Free delivery and returns on eligible orders. Buy 3.5mm Mini STEREO Jack to 2x 6.35mm 1/4" MONO Male Plugs Cable 1.2m at Amazon UK.

www.amazon.co.uk

And then 4x of these from the DSP to the amp:

Cordial CFM 0,6 FV

High Quality Audio Cable Balanced male jack to balanced female XLR, With Neutrik (Rean) connectors, Gold-plated contacts, Casing: Black metal, Cable cross-section: 2 x 0.20 mm², Hand-soldered, Length: 0.6 m

www.thomann.de

Thanks, and sorry if this question is confusing.

 

[Tomber]

I'm wondering if I might have to treat each input into the DSP as mono instead of stereo, and send the audio signal out as two channels out from my on-board audio and two channels out from my sound card....

Use 2 of your stereo outputs of the soundcard with the adapter and you get 4 mono channels.

You had the female XLR wrong, should be male connector as the socket is female on the amp. You can also just use Jack on both sides, as the socket accepts Jack and XLR. Here the shopping list:

PC to DSP
2x https://m.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_ypk2030.htm

DSP to AMP
4x https://m.thomann.de/gb/cordial_ccfi_03_pp.htm
or (cheaper but longer)
2x https://m.thomann.de/gb/pro_snake_tpi_twin_1.5.htm
or (if you prefer XLR)
4x https://m.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_mxp1009_audiokabel.htm

AMP to speakers (get two of the cheapest in double the length you need and cut them in half and crimp some cable shoes to the contacts)
2x https://m.thomann.de/gb/speaker_cab...&keyFeature_47034=Speaker+Twist+2-pol&s=price

 

[DM77]

Use 2 of your stereo outputs of the soundcard with the adapter and you get 4 mono channels.

You had the female XLR wrong, should be male connector as the socket is female on the amp. You can also just use Jack on both sides, as the socket accepts Jack and XLR. Here the shopping list:

PC to DSP
2x https://m.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_ypk2030.htm

DSP to AMP
4x https://m.thomann.de/gb/cordial_ccfi_03_pp.htm
or (cheaper but longer)
2x https://m.thomann.de/gb/pro_snake_tpi_twin_1.5.htm
or (if you prefer XLR)
4x https://m.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_mxp1009_audiokabel.htm

AMP to speakers (get two of the cheapest in double the length you need and cut them in half and crimp some cable shoes to the contacts)
2x https://m.thomann.de/gb/speaker_cab...&keyFeature_47034=Speaker+Twist+2-pol&s=price

Cheers this will help a lot!

 

[EsxPaul]

I'm having some trouble in finding out how to place an effect so that it sits within a group

I added the wheels slip effect but it sits alone at the bottom of the list. What I'd like to do is have it be placed in the buttkicker concert group as that's where I intend to use it. Is there a way to do this or am I stuck with it being orphaned?

 

[Mr Latte]

You create a new folder then can move the layers you want into that folder by the dots at the side.
We can also "Copy" a folder (with multiple effects or layers) to clipboard. Then load an entirely different profile and click "Paste" to now have those effects in another profile.

Do remember though to save this as a new profile

 

[EsxPaul]

You create a new folder then can move the layers you want into that folder by the dots at the side.
We can also "Copy" a folder (with multiple effects or layers) to clipboard. Then load an entirely different profile and click "Paste" to now have those effects in another profile.

Do remember though to save this as a new profile

Brilliant. Thank you.

I had been clicking on the little group of dots and nothing would happen. I didn't realise you could click and drag

 

[DM77]

my first pair of DAEX32EP-4 Dayton exciters arrived today, and I'm wondering how reliable the adhesive pads are that come attached. Chances are I'll be mounting these on the vertical chassis plates direcly under my seat (its a leather racing seat which doesn't offer great mounting options).

I used cable ties to attach my ADX and Buttkicker units to my pedal deck, chassis and the back of the seat, but I dont really have the same option with these, as they are more like a classic speaker driver than a fully enclosed solid tactile unit.

I have the Omega Art GT sim rig, and curious whether I'll be fine to just clean the surface and stick these on, or if anyone else did something a bit different?

 

[EsxPaul]

@DM77 the adhesive is strong stuff so I don't think you'll have any issues with them staying in place. You have to be very accurate with your placement and get them exactly where you want them on the first attempt. They grab the surface really well and are tricky to remove once they're in place.

Should you have any issues @Tom_Hampton showed a really nice alternative option of mounting them with 3M low profile dual lock

https://www.racedepartment.com/thre...cussion-hardware-software.137631/post-3207069

 

[vanka472]

Are you powering them hard when they rattle? Mine were doing that and I noticed that the outermost front edge of the exiter was bumping up against the edge of a raised ridge on my seat when it was only halfway through its travel. I had to move them over just a few mm so they could extend fairly far without contacting anything. They do still hit the seat if I press them in with a lot of pressure but when they do, the full circumference of the exiter hits the seat evenly all around that outside edge. You can observe this by manually pressing them in towards the seat back, bottom or sides to see how any contact is made.

I know what you are referring to here, and it did take a little bit to understand that was what was happening. It is more so noticeable if I ever run at high volumes (hit the test now button when its at 100%) that it does vibrate from the entire puck coming down and hitting the seat. My seat is very rounded, so that could partially the issue for sure. I turned the exciters down and now I don't get that sort of response from them. The rattle seems to be an internal issue....

Simhubs "primary/main/master volume" whatever people want to call it (top right) IS the soundcard(s) being used volume.

Simhub can generate much more low Hz than typical audio sources, did you apply the recommended crossover settings to help protect these exciter units under 25-30Hz? This also might help with your issue or try a stronger bond solution to the seat.

Not all this below may be related to your issue but can be issues...
Rattle could occur if the unit does not have a solid bond/connection with the source object.

Reverb issues with different frequency tests is possible, like for instance does the seat hum badly like a speaker? If a user discovers, let's say @60Hz (only an example) was causing a problem, you can reduce the amplitude of this problematic frequency band via DSP/PEQ control without affecting other frequencies output. You cant apply pinpoint accuracy like that with volume or only basic EQ controls. As PEQ equalizing also lets you adjust the "Q factor" in how wide the adjustment affects other neighboring frequencies.

Resonatoooooor
Different materials will have different resonant frequencies. This is generally the peak resonant frequency of an object. Using a good crossover filter (DSP) will let you limit the output for what is the max frequency we allow the unit to generate. 200Hz at 0dB is a good start but will not necessarily be ideal or to every user's taste.

TST can peak with resonance issues in some seats @60-80Hz

People that are testing DSP settings for the exciters be it via PC-Soundcard software or additional hardware could share the settings they find work well. Would then be simple for others to apply these settings. My advice is for people to try to tune them and then compare the units with and without the DSP which will clearly determine if indeed for most users it is worth considering for these units or not. Users that like more control of the audio will want it.

Keep in mind exciters are half of a speaker/ the voice coil and their primary usage is to turn objects into speakers, in that the object becomes like the speaker cone. We do not want to use them for this purpose but only the bass frequencies with @150-200Hz being a good limit to consider.

My advice would be to use an exciter from around 35Hz to 150hz or 200Hz and similar for TST units as well. Higher end TST units will offer better mid and low range performance though.

Thanks for that information Mr. Latte, that makes more sense, especially as I have encountered the reverb issue with my seat while playing with a tone generator. It does help to at least understand where the exciters are sitting their best.

TBH I haven't checked if the proper cross over settings were setup or applied. I have been using someone else's profile and I have a feeling Romain did apply this.

So far what has made the most sense is the bonding issue? That one exciter that I am now having issues with was not as hard to take off as the other exciters. A light twist and it came right off, and while trying to figure out its issues and how those can be resolved in the meantime, I have been taking it on and off, hence reducing the bond. Is it worth just buying more VHB or are the other solutions we have sourced in the last few pages, better? I know there was a low profile velcro-like material, (of course now I'm blanking).

On another note, I was thinking about testing out the DAEX32QMB-4. It is the "mega bass" version on the regular 32-4. I am hoping these can handle the lower frequencies a bit better and throughout since the exciters are on for such a long period of time. If this doesn't work I may be tempted to just move towards the AST-2B-4 and run the transducers in certain spots where I am having issues with the smaller pucks.

 

[Mr Latte]

I know what you are referring to here, and it did take a little bit to understand that was what was happening. It is more so noticeable if I ever run at high volumes (hit the test now button when its at 100%) that it does vibrate from the entire puck coming down and hitting the seat. My seat is very rounded, so that could partially the issue for sure. I turned the exciters down and now I don't get that sort of response from them. The rattle seems to be an internal issue....



Thanks for that information Mr. Latte, that makes more sense, especially as I have encountered the reverb issue with my seat while playing with a tone generator. It does help to at least understand where the exciters are sitting their best.

TBH I haven't checked if the proper cross over settings were setup or applied. I have been using someone else's profile and I have a feeling Romain did apply this.

So far what has made the most sense is the bonding issue? That one exciter that I am now having issues with was not as hard to take off as the other exciters. A light twist and it came right off, and while trying to figure out its issues and how those can be resolved in the meantime, I have been taking it on and off, hence reducing the bond. Is it worth just buying more VHB or are the other solutions we have sourced in the last few pages, better? I know there was a low profile velcro-like material, (of course now I'm blanking).

On another note, I was thinking about testing out the DAEX32QMB-4. It is the "mega bass" version on the regular 32-4. I am hoping these can handle the lower frequencies a bit better and throughout since the exciters are on for such a long period of time. If this doesn't work I may be tempted to just move towards the AST-2B-4 and run the transducers in certain spots where I am having issues with the smaller pucks.

Worth trying the dual lock option for better bond.

If you look at the chart info for the specs you will find the recommended "Thruster" exciter has better bass than the unit you mentioned. The unit I found that improved on the low end was the "Ultra". Yet it could bottom easier and was less robust in its construction, so I opted not to recommend it based on the "Thruster" being better constructed, it didn't bottom as much and offered better mid-high detailing which is what these exciters should be used for.

Its getting a bit annoying that some people, seemingly think they will improve on the recommended solution by trying other options. When already I did I think enough research and testing to determine what the best exciter for the purpose we would use was. I spent quite a bit of money testing several options including small transducers (not just exciters) to make it a simple choice for others.

Some people will want to do what they want eh and seemingly ignore the advice given (sigh) regardless of my own experience and tests already carried out with various makes/models of transducers.

Additional Factors:
You have to take into account we are using these in an application which is not what they are really designed for and the low bass signals we can generate from Simhub is much more constant than typical audio in movies or music these would normally used for. That's why I even went to the bother to illustrate and recommended people use the crossover feature in Simhub to help protect them and increase their potential lifespan.

Yet you now are seeking an exciter unit that has a better low end, yes, so ignoring the recommendations?

My thoughts, FWIW is to not try to use exciters with the lowest bass or have them thumping the crap out of the 30Hz-40Hz range with overbearing intensities. Instead, put the money towards even a BK Mini-unit or larger if budget allows. That will get you better low end than the AST options. Use the BK for the bass extension it will deliver far better than the exciters and again this is what has been tried and tested.

You can, of course, do your own thing

 

[EsxPaul]

Do you guys tend to keep Sim Hub up to date when new releases arrive? If so, is it a case of uninstalling old version, reinstalling new and then importing your profiles as I couldn't find the option to do an upgrade from within the programme.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Do you guys tend to keep Sim Hub up to date when new releases arrive? If so, is it a case of uninstalling old version, reinstalling new and then importing your profiles as I couldn't find the option to do an upgrade from within the programme.

Why uninstall first? It's all kept when installed over the old one, including license, profiles and other settings.

 

[EsxPaul]

Why uninstall first? It's all kept when installed over the old one, including license, profiles and other settings.

Thanks for the tip, Andrew. I'd just installed it for the first time around a week ago and am still scratching around in there to find out out how it all works.

 

[EsxPaul]

Can somebody explain how 'frequencies based on input/output works?

I'm unclear on when and why you would select one or the other of those options.

Thanks and sorry to all for spamming the thread so much with noob questions

 

[Tomber]

Can somebody explain how 'frequencies based on input/output works?

The SimHub ShakeIt manual entry would be a good start, but is also not very helpful, if the reader doesn't understand, that the response curve changes gain (volume) and frequency.
For these specific questions, I can highly recommend joining the SimHub Discord and use the search function there. Here the best explanation I could find (that helped me as well):

Actually the input mode is specially intended for the rpm effect.
First of all the input/output button only matters when using a frequency range (as opposed to a static frequency).
When output mode is enabled : the curve affects both gain and frequency.
When input mode is enabled : the curve affects only the gain and the frequency stays linear to the input.
Testing with extreme gamma values and a wide frequency range should make the difference obvious as this is all about linearity of the frequency response.

 

[EsxPaul]

Thank you for those helpful links @Tomber

 

[EsxPaul]

I'm close to admitting defeat here

With my lack of understanding how things work in Sim Hub and audio in general, this is becoming many hours of not very much fun. I think the best way for me to make this work is to start from scratch with a blank slate.

Let's say I start again with nothing but a single engine rpm effect, single large BK and nothing else. Is it possible to have just that single effect cover the full engine rpm range? For example, it somewhat rumbles at idle, climbs with the rpms and judders if you hit the limiter etc. I know this the wrong approach and doesn't come close to using the full potential of a LFE/Concert but I'd settle with that over getting frustrated and wanting to put it all up for sale on the classifieds.

The complexity of working with multi layered effects is way over my head so I need to keep it at the most simple level possible. I did have a try with adding and editing an effect, just to get some feeling of rumble at idle rpm and that's about all I could manage. I clicked in the frequency response box and ended up with dots and bars spinning all over the place. I'm absolutely clueless with this stuff and never would have got involved if I had known how difficult it would be for me.

If you're in need of a laugh...

I'm gutted and going off to sulk in the corner for a while

 

[vanka472]

I'm close to admitting defeat here

With my lack of understanding how things work in Sim Hub and audio in general, this is becoming many hours of not very much fun. I think the best way for me to make this work is to start from scratch with a blank slate.

Let's say I start again with nothing but a single engine rpm effect, single large BK and nothing else. Is it possible to have just that single effect cover the full engine rpm range? For example, it somewhat rumbles at idle, climbs with the rpms and judders if you hit the limiter etc. I know this the wrong approach and doesn't come close to using the full potential of a LFE/Concert but I'd settle with that over getting frustrated and wanting to put it all up for sale on the classifieds.

The complexity of working with multi layered effects is way over my head so I need to keep it at the most simple level possible. I did have a try with adding and editing an effect, just to get some feeling of rumble at idle rpm and that's about all I could manage. I clicked in the frequency response box and ended up with dots and bars spinning all over the place. I'm absolutely clueless with this stuff and never would have got involved if I had known how difficult it would be for me.

If you're in need of a laugh...

View attachment 388336

I'm gutted and going off to sulk in the corner for a while

No don't give up! We can make this happen. It's a total change in the experience even if you get it dialed in lightly and adjust from there. I too am a bit out of my element here so I really think it is worth starting with someone else's profile and atleast understanding how it feels and then start to dial in what makes sense to you. Your experience might be ultimately the most perfect if you start from scratch but it will take a long time and lots of time understanding all the details. Not that it's bad to do that as that is the best way to do it but I know that we just wanna jump in and start using it and atleast getting an understanding of it fares while we are in our favorite sim. I'm new but I'll offer any little help I can with my experience so far!