Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

I've started from the beginning of this epic thread and still have about 30 pages to go. I'm still a complete know nothing but the information is slowly sinking in.

I'm just about at bursting point with a ton of questions to ask.

Chucking a few in in now as I'm drawing up my ever changing shopping list. The list has changed every time I've turned a page of this thread, as new information came to pass.

Question...

Would the HA8000 V2 be a sensible choice over the HA6000, considering they are the same price?

My current shopping list includes these:

NX 3000D (to power 2 larger central units, as yet undecided)
EPQ304 (to power 4 seat exciters)
HA8000 V2 (to tune the above and have a couple of spare channels)

Hopefully I've taken in enough that the above seem like reasonable choices.

Hi, yes I have seen with your "likes" you have been tracking through the thread thanks much appreciated.

The HA8000 does not offer the Bass/Treble controls of the HA6000 and those are handy for on the fly adjustments by all means.
It's also a cool looking bit of gear with all the active led.

However in fairness, the HA6000 is an optional thing, it can let a user also mix/combine "game audio tactile" with Simhubs "tone generated telemetry tactile". This was covered in the thread at times, but its only really needed, if people want to do that or enjoy tactile just from say a console. It has a purpose but it's not exactly intended for users just new to it all.

What you should maybe consider first is just getting the amp and exciters or transducers you had been thinking of and keep yourself open for one of those later.

The EPQ304 is good enough amp for 4 exciters but for people wanting more control of them we can consider an external DSP solution.
This would bring more control than the HA6000 but it isn't quite the same thing as one is more of a mixer.

Feedback from people is that the exciters are okay on their own...
Personally I would want and recommend having a DSP solution for tactile as its the best approach to fine-tuning and controlling their operation.

The unit I want to try and recommend has been shown HERE on the forums but it would need connecting to a PC to configure it, however, it is currently out of stock. Not hard to install or use with some understanding of frequencies and it then brings similar control benefits the DSP amps offer. Basically the soundcard connects to the DSP box and the DSP box then goes to the amp.

This again could be added at a later time
Hope it helps, ask if you are unsure about anything.
 
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Damn it, I saw all those extra rows of lighting and thought '8 must be better than 6'. Thank you for pointing that out for me. The shopping list will be adjusted once more.

This is why I can't be left to do things unattended :D

I'm going to catch up with the rest of thread and then let you guys critique my list and the reasoning behind it. I'm quite sure there will be flawed choices in there but I'll be open to revising it.

@Mr Latte The work you've put into this area is to be commended. Also, your planned rig is insane and beautiful in equal proportions. Everytime I see it, the word skunkworks enters my thoughts. Amazing stuff :thumbsup:
 
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, I have not really paid much attention to this sector since getting into the hobby.

I have a buttkicker hooked up to an earthquake amp and triggered from my sub. It works. It's okay. It's nothing special in my opinion, it just adds a bit of flavour. The problem is that I now mostly play in VR and with me being on mic with friends and such, it would be nice to have a non-audible induced solution to tactile haptics. Basically, audio through my VR headset headphones only while still having haptics. Is there a solution for this? Or is it all based on audibly inducing the haptics?
 
Cannot help with an alternative method but if it's just the mic you are concerned with, you could try the RTX Voice app. Requires an RTX Nvidia GPU
It is AI (machine learning) based and seems to cancel out most if not all background noise.


Here is a demo.



Another option is Krisp.ai. It is a paid service but free to use with discord.


Hope that helps :thumbsup:
 
Looks like Douk Audio (Nobsound) have a new and possibly quite good 4 channel budget amp being released that works with 4-8ohm.

I think this is the first 4 channel option I have seen from them and this might be ideal for people buying exciters or other budget transducers rated to about 50W max.

UK Here

I am evaluating a simple and cheap setup.
So this kind of suggestion is really appreciated, like the interesting research by @gnoshme.

May I ask expert opinion on this marine amp?

Pyle PLMRA400

At a very interesting price of 54€ it decalares 15hz low frequency response.

Also: mutichannel car audio amps are any good?
Like these just for example:

 
Car amps are possible options, not something I looked into but they are ideal in one aspect in that they are 4ohm and you can get them with support for multiple channels. You then have the issues with mains-12V but that can be achieved with suitable power supplies. A bit like d.i.y amps this option may take a bit more work and basic electronic/wiring skills. Some may want to stay clear of this, others may not mind as they know what to do.

Many modern car speaker systems can use, subs, main drivers and tweeters as speakers.
Some amps can filter the frequencies for those so that the source is separated for individual outputs for:

low bass = sub
mid bass = main speaker
treble / high frequencies = tweeter

Some more basic amps may have a low bass output like 2.1 meaning it has two channels but also a low bass channel taken from the two channels.For what we are doing with Simhub and tactile we don't need this. We actually want all channels to be used for low bass, as Simhub as a source will be primarily outputting that and most people will use effects working below 100Hz up to 200Hz if possible. We don't need low level/high-level outputs as these are used typically for 20Hz -20KHz audio sources not just bass frequencies.

How good the built-in crossover controls are on lots of budget car amps, may also be questionable.

Douk Audio has plenty of options, come with power supplies, so why you guys that come in new to all this tend to avoid options already given and that lots of people already use/own is beyond me. I just shared a new, "potentially" ideal amp with 4 channels and each with individual volume control that seems like a bargain. Not tried it but appears as a good option.

There are also lots of 2 channel Nobsound options available, cheaper still to buy and as these are tiny amps they are not hard to place somewhere, then buy more if wanted. You will find examples of these powering and being tested with various speakers people own as well (videos on YT). Most should be more than capable of handling 4xbudget tactile transducers, so tell me why would someone be considering car amps unless they specifically want to go that direction? Seems more hassle to me.

Also just to point out and keep in mind that for powering 4x Buttkickers (piston based shakers) you want an amp with more power output.
It then becomes trickier to get a suitable amp, especially one with multiple channel support with say 200w-300w per channel.

Do not be fooled by wattage claims, many companies will list PMPO (peak music power output) and often they can be misleading but that won't stop some people buying them and thinking wow, this amp has xxx watts it must be awesome. ;)

My advice is to buy something others have and use, that are reliable and work well but ultimately people will get what they please.
 
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Forgive my ignorance on the subject, I have not really paid much attention to this sector since getting into the hobby.

I have a buttkicker hooked up to an earthquake amp and triggered from my sub. It works. It's okay. It's nothing special in my opinion, it just adds a bit of flavour. The problem is that I now mostly play in VR and with me being on mic with friends and such, it would be nice to have a non-audible induced solution to tactile haptics. Basically, audio through my VR headset headphones only while still having haptics. Is there a solution for this? Or is it all based on audibly inducing the haptics?


Confirm for me if I get what you mean:

1 You have a BK
2. You are playing VR titles (all types or just sims)
3. You perhaps want to duplicate windows primary audio to have 2x outputs 1= headphones 1= tactile (use also individual EQ/volumes)
4. Win 10 - I believe supports this
5. This would be what I term as "Game Audio Tactile" as it uses standard audio as a source
6. Using software like Simhub generates tones from telemetry data from supported sims/games. I term that "Telemetry Based Tactile"
7. One or both can be used for tactile immersion

Hope that helps
 
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Confirm for me if I get what you mean:

1 You have a BK
2. You are playing VR titles (all types or just sims)
3. You perhaps want to duplicate windows primary audio to have 2x outputs 1= headphones 1= tactile (use also individual EQ/volumes)
4. Win 10 - I believe supports this
5. This would be what I term as "Game Audio Tactile" as it uses standard audio as a source
6. Using software like Simhub generates tones from telemetry data from supported sims/games. I term that "Telemetry Based Tactile"
7. One or both can be used for tactile immersion

Hope that helps

That, and some further reading, does help, thanks! It seems I'm going to want to use a seperate sound card (no biggie, i have one lying around) and hook the BK directly into that, then use Simhub to generate the tones for the BK and output them over the soundcard to the BK.
 
That, and some further reading, does help, thanks! It seems I'm going to want to use a seperate sound card (no biggie, i have one lying around) and hook the BK directly into that, then use Simhub to generate the tones for the BK and output them over the soundcard to the BK.

Yes, this can be great for new immersion...
Just like subwoofers, having DSP is the best way to control what goes to the transducer but its more for people that seek to fine-tune and get the best from it for improved immersion and personal preferences.
 
I am evaluating a simple and cheap setup.
So this kind of suggestion is really appreciated, like the interesting research by @gnoshme.

May I ask expert opinion on this marine amp?

Pyle PLMRA400

At a very interesting price of 54€ it decalares 15hz low frequency response.

Also: mutichannel car audio amps are any good?
Like these just for example:


I would be interested to know that too. What I have learned is that until you hook it up and give it a go you won't know, regardless of what the spec is. As nobody is building amps with a focus on frequencies that are even low for sub bass woofers, and most people and youtube testers aren't using speakers that are optimized down there either it's a matter of stumbling upon amps that happen to work in the lower frequencies better than others. There are some trends like some chipsets seeming to work better than others, but at the end of the day, the pairing between a specific transducer and a specific amp is a bit of a crap shoot with one of 4 outcomes:

- might lack low end
- might have a good low end response, but run the shakers hot
- might have a good low end response, but run the amp hot
- or might be great
 
To be fair, people buying budget amps buy budget tactile, so they are going to get the best response in that 30-80Hz range (at most)
The amp won't need to have great low bass as the user won't even get to feel it if using budget transducers.

Additionally, an amp like these won't power the more substantial or lower bass capable Buttkickers like the BK Advance or bigger.
The Advance, generally need at least 200W per channel to work comfortably and the large ones even more due to the heavier pistons which are what is key to them having better low bass response.

The issue with car amps is pairing them with a suitable PSU and its why I ask, is it worth the hassle when you can buy off the shelf solutions that are ready to go and still affordable. Also in buying something, others have been using with no issues for the purpose we are using them then you rule out the chance in an untried combination.

I suppose each to their own thing.
 
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Does anybody have experience of the Clarke prosound 429?

Reason for asking... I'm wondering if it could perform in the same role as as big CT or LFE?
 
Hi, my 1st post on RD, but I’ve been lurking for a while….



I’ve played AC with fairly basic hardware for a few years (Thrustmaster T150, Fanatec CSv3 pedals, TM TH8A shifter, dining chair!) but am now looking to go up several gears, I have ordered a Simlab P1-X rig with a Tillett composite bucket seat, Accuforce V2 DD, Valve Index VR, and a new top end PC.



I’ve tried my best to digest the contents of this thread so I think I’ve got the basics, but would like to ask for a quick critique of my tactile feedback plans if I may.



Basics: 7.1(would support upgradability for more channels in future) soundcard, appropriate connects from soundcard to amps, and amps to shakers, audio rack, definitely won’t overlook importance of isolating rig from floor, and seat/pedal plate from rig. Simhub sounds like the software of choice. Whatever I go for I will try to feedback my thoughts, I’d love to make use of any suggested profiles/tuning solutions that others have come up with for approximately similar hardware, but appreciate there is no one size fits all solution, and no substitute for testing!



Shaker plan: Definitely (at least)BK LFE x1 under seat, and 3 pairs of Dayton DAEX32EP-4 thruster mounted to base, mid and upper seat back (1 channel left, 1 channel right).

BK Advance x 1 under pedal plate .



Amp: Well, probably Behringer NX3000D x1, and NX1000D x1.



Options – would adding another LFE under the seat (stereo) add a great deal to the experience? – the downsides as I see it are cost, and the need to add in another amp, the base of the Tillett seat is also very narrow (30cm) so I’m unsure how much stereo separation you would actually perceive, and how much space there would be to mount?



Does the T Amp Quadro 500DSP have a role? - I know it doesn’t do 2ohm but it does cover 4 channels, 500w per channel and have DSP.



Does the LFE and Dayton exciter combo adequately cover the mid range?



This clearly isn’t a typical entry level setup but the law of dimishing returns does come into play at some point, I am a little concerned that the more kit I add, the greater complexity and potential for things to go wrong, but if you think I'm missing a trick here please tell me.



Really grateful for any feedback. Oh, I’m in the UK.



Cheers



Chris
 
Does anybody have experience of the Clarke prosound 429?

Reason for asking... I'm wondering if it could perform in the same role as as big CT or LFE?

My answers are usually long and I blabber on an on.

So today a change... :D

Experience with TST 429 = Yes very detailed, smooth and musical unit with decent low bass
Could It perform The Same Role As A Big CT or LFE = No, not for frequencies under 20Hz.
 
It's been a while, but I got some advice from Mr. Latte a few years ago for my tactile setup. I am currently in a DOF Reality P3 Rig with 2 BKA and 1 inuke1000.

I recently switched over from simvibe to simhub shakeit and I am liking it a lot more. The effects are clearly labeled I can tune them a lot easier than I ever could on simvibe. The flexibility the audio channels are very nice as well. Don't have to conform to the strict placement in simvibe.

I did my first pass dialing in each effect and blending them together. It feels pretty good to me.

One question is are there any rules of thumb when it comes to frequency and effects? Like kerbs should be around 35hz and tire slip should be around 50hz or something?

With the inuke i have the dps.. what can/should I be doing with it. I am still a noob with this stuff.

You have a lot of great info here mr latte, but it's scattered throughout. Do you have any reference posts? Google brought me straight here. Any buying guide or setup guide from you is hard to find.
 
It's been a while, but I got some advice from Mr. Latte a few years ago for my tactile setup. I am currently in a DOF Reality P3 Rig with 2 BKA and 1 inuke1000.

I recently switched over from simvibe to simhub shakeit and I am liking it a lot more. The effects are clearly labeled I can tune them a lot easier than I ever could on simvibe. The flexibility the audio channels are very nice as well. Don't have to conform to the strict placement in simvibe.

I did my first pass dialing in each effect and blending them together. It feels pretty good to me.

One question is are there any rules of thumb when it comes to frequency and effects? Like kerbs should be around 35hz and tire slip should be around 50hz or something?

With the inuke i have the dps.. what can/should I be doing with it. I am still a noob with this stuff.

You have a lot of great info here mr latte, but it's scattered throughout. Do you have any reference posts? Google brought me straight here. Any buying guide or setup guide from you is hard to find.


Yes info here is scattered, topics and replies all over the place and the thread over the time it has ran has moved focus from Simvibe - SSW - Simhub.
.More and more Simvibe users are starting to look at and use Simhub as its not just hype or bias from me or others but just so much better, easier and nicer to use.

PM me sometime, I want to get feedback regards low bass effects on the BKA. Although if it interests you, I just shared a fairly cut down/basic profile in the new BK Gamer2 thread that should still work well on your units.
 
My answers are usually long and I blabber on an on.

So today a change... :D

Experience with TST 429 = Yes very detailed, smooth and musical unit with decent low bass
Could It perform The Same Role As A Big CT or LFE = No, not for frequencies under 20Hz.

Not at all mate :) I enjoy reading through your very detailed posts. I lot of the information does admittedly go over my head but that's only due to my severe lack of knowledge and no fault of yours.

If I am getting the picture correctly, the TST models would be an addition that would fit in between the recommended large BKs and exiters, if you had the funds and were going for a well rounded arrangement.

That leads me onto a thought that's crossing my mind regarding isolated pedal decks. If I were limited to a single unit for that section, would a large BK still be the way to go?

My imagining that the mid/high bass strength of a TST under a pedal deck would be a flaw?

The thought that keeps crossing my mind is that with a pedal section being such a relatively small area, a large BK could be overkill 'thumpwise' if I were just passing tactile into my heels. Bear in mind, I have no idea what to expect and how I am currently thinking it will feel is all pure imagination on my part.
 
@griffchris

Your on the right tracks....
The "T Amp Quadro 500DSP" is a nice unit and at a good price and will have enough wattage.


I had a look at its software which seem quite good and clean, also supports plenty of different EQ filters

Just a shame it won't support 2ohm but I wouldn't say the LFE Vs CT is a drastic issue even if they may have some operational differences.
The exciters help bridge the gap for the 60Hz and up. Id say you can be certain the NX3000D will perform well and reliably even if two may be needed but I dont know of anyone using that amp to power dual large BK. So its a decision you have to weigh up.

Do however keep an eye on the forums, I've been enjoying the journey with helping a fellow member here for the past couple of weeks who has been installing 8x exciters and going with 1x BK CT on a seat with also 1x BKG on pedals. He has been great in giving feedback on effects and I've asked him to do a thread on here when suits to give his own opinions on it all.
 
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Not at all mate :) I enjoy reading through your very detailed posts. I lot of the information does admittedly go over my head but that's only due to my severe lack of knowledge and no fault of yours.

If I am getting the picture correctly, the TST models would be an addition that would fit in between the recommended large BKs and exiters, if you had the funds and were going for a well rounded arrangement.

That leads me onto a thought that's crossing my mind regarding isolated pedal decks. If I were limited to a single unit for that section, would a large BK still be the way to go?

My imagining that the mid/high bass strength of a TST under a pedal deck would be a flaw?

The thought that keeps crossing my mind is that with a pedal section being such a relatively small area, a large BK could be overkill 'thumpwise' if I were just passing tactile into my heels. Bear in mind, I have no idea what to expect and how I am currently thinking it will feel is all pure imagination on my part.


Thanks for the kind words and your patience or insanity of plowing through this thread.
The simple honest answer is that the best tactile will come if you can utilize the full 1Hz - 200Hz.

The best way to do that is with a large BK and then the exciters or pairing the BK with a TST model.
A TST 209 or 239 will still work well with a BK and as you use the TST more for the mid-high bass then it doesn't need the low end as the BK already will be good for up to whatever crossover you want to use it.

Its very easy on the amp to use the DSP to compare different crossovers and EQ, the beauty is it lets the user get the settings that suit them and their installations.

Okay so now the part to pay attention too.
Why use the exciters if the TST may be larger more powerful and also very good for smoother detail and the high bass frequencies.

With the exciters, you can install 2-4-6-8 of these to a seat and for the body regions. That means you can position specific effect layers to any of those channels. This lets you get better coverage of a specific effect or it lets you place more effects into the seat and maintain the detail better as its not a single unit trying to generate them all.

How many times do people use the phrase "less is more" regards tactile?

Mr Latte agrees, but this is the solution to that problem.
We still keep a unit for 1-3 effects at most (and not all operating at the same time) but with the multiple exciters.
NOW we can use a combination of more effect layers or different effects without it over-taxing that units' operational detailing and performance.

Sometimes this problem is down to the combinations of frequencies the unit is trying to generate at once and it cant output them all as defined if fewer layers or effects were used. So by this approach in the concept, I share we get around this problem.

It all still needs balancing the volumes to taste but it is possible. I even like to have settings to suit more emphasis for the engine but at times I prefer to tone those down and feel more the stereo effects and wheel-slip or effects that can aid driving.


Its so simple, yet so brilliant as it gives the user the control to determine how each unit is used.
Some people already have bought and use:

1x Large BK
1x TST
4x Exciters (or more)


My advice would be to work towards at least 6 exciters on a seat, then a large BK with either a TST or using two large BK.
Some users may not feel they need or want stereo with the large units (don't forget, we still can do it with the exciters).

Personally I like to split my RPM and SPEED so its good having two large units for this as these are the most constant effects but both can have effects generated for them that use REALLY low bass for awesome immersion. You can't get on the cheap units but also it comes back to being able to benefit from having the full 1Hz-200Hz bass range so that you can achieve a wider range of feel in effects as well as richer or more detailed sensations.
 
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Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply @Mr Latte
As always, super detailed information for me to work with and ponder over.

If you don't mind, can I nail you down a little more on some points of your post.

Some people already have bought and use:

1x Large BK
1x TST
4x Exciters (or more)

I've been thinking of this as my starting point and am assuming you would see that as a reasonably sensible (although maybe not your ideal) choice if a person were to enter tactile at that level. The TST would be utilised on the pedal deck and all other units for the seat, was my thinking.

My advice would be to work towards at least 6 exciters on a seat

This leads me to another question. Does a next level up, 6 channel version of the EPQ304 exist that doesn't break the bank? Having the EPQ304 on my list is what's keeping me at a limit of 4 exiters as I wanted to keep to a sensible quantity of amplifiers. I know I could add a relatively inexpensive Nobsound/SMSL to run 2 additional exiters but I would like to keep things neat and tidy within reason.
 

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