SimXperience GS-5 Seat

[GaryM05]

That's exactly what I did and the noise level is not bad. I have four ButtKicker mini-LFEs in chassis mode for the high frequency effects mounted on my rig. I only have acceleration, braking, lateral Gs, vertical Gs, and rear traction loss effects on the seat. With this configuration, my 5.1 surround system works well.

If I had it to do all over again the four dayton pucks mounted in the seat might be a great way to go. But I agree routing those inputs to the seat motors is really noisy. You can easily just disable those other effects to see what happens to the noise level.

Agreed - it's still louder than I would like, but it got much quieter when I disabled all of the high-frequency road noise effects. Those aren't what I bought the seat for anyway, so I don't feel like I'm losing anything from turning them off.

And I'm really tempted to try the Dayton Pucks on the panels to replace my BK's at the 4 corners as well...it seems like the end result might be more-livable and generally better, anyway.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

The chair was an absolute bitch to install, whose idea was it to have bottom mounting that can’t be accessed when using seat sliders . It took so long putting the thing together that by the time i finished I had to go to sleep for work and now I’m away .

The 2 mins I got to quickly try it non-VR and without motion really gave me very little insight. Plus I was more annoyed by Automobilista giving me major issues with the wheel rotation. Not sure if the profile is messed up but it kept giving me 900 degrees no matter what was set in the game profile but didn’t have a chance to check the global one. The. GS-5 was working fine though so it must have been connecting and getting telemetry output to that.

It has necessitated me needing to move the wheel up again though as it’s higher up so I’ll have the flip that back the other way when I get a chance.

 

[sfdmalex]

Just remember that you need to spend a fair bit of time making good GS-5 profiles. The "auto out of the box" stuff was just a terrible noisy mess. When I first tried it I wanted to cry as I couldn't possibly return this thing, a good friend send me his profiles and now I couldn't live without it.

 

[Bigwaved]

Do you mind sharing the profiles you changed to?

 

[driver74]

I looked on the Simxperience website and even browsed the GS-5 manual but could not find any mention of this...

If I were to run a GS-5 seat on top of a 3DOF (SFX100) rig....

It appears there are round cutouts in the 4 movement plates; I’m assuming for some type of small transducer?

If this is the case, Is this is there a specific model of transducer that you would recommend to install there?

...or is that overkill altogether?

 

[nerdthewise]

It's the dayton pucks that install there. I found better value in a full ButtKicker setup, but if you were working on the cheap the Dayton's are certainly more affordable.

 

[Mr Latte]

It's the dayton pucks that install there. I found better value in a full ButtKicker setup, but if you were working on the cheap the Dayton's are certainly more affordable.

I think even the old GS4 had the pre-drilled holes for mounting Dayton Pucs. However the Pucs may not be the best tactile option to use.

What you guys won't get with adding Dayton Pucs and when using Simvibe is the ability to combine the motion of the panel with "Lateral G" and "Speed Sensitive Steering" tactile effects. These options are possible with Shakeit and if you want even better tactile performance, my advice is to buy the 40W Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 Thruster Exciter. It can easily be stuck to a surface and will deliver greater detail and bass (also much better with RPM effects) than the Pucs offer.

It's then further possible to combine the exciters with the largest BK units, this again is possible with Shakeit as its not restricted in the ways Simvibe is with CM/EM based channels. Now you can have as many channels as you want and place effects to whatever channels you want. Duplicate/Copy/Paste effects or alter them specifically for individual units roles/specs

I've not read of anyone that owns a GS5 yet test/try this combination.

 

[nerdthewise]

You think the Thrusters are better than the standard puck? For the money involved I was looking at trying the pucks, but between cutting the panels for install and the additional wire routing I'd have to do I ended up bagging the idea.

@AlexN built a test bench of all the different Dayton options, he might be able to weigh in as well.

 

[Mr Latte]

You think the Thrusters are better than the standard puck? For the money involved I was looking at trying the pucks, but between cutting the panels for install and the additional wire routing I'd have to do I ended up bagging the idea.

@AlexN built a test bench of all the different Dayton options, he might be able to weigh in as well.

Most of you guys perhaps still look at this from a Simvibe Tactile based installation perspective. That's the first limitation, a user having BK units or TST units on the back of the seat while it can achieve more direct delivery of effects, still has limitations.

These being their size and mounting them is not so easy. Thirdly, how we can combine exciters with larger units (BK / TST) means we can bring the best low bass, combined with the most detailed mid-bass but also much greater felt sensations beyond the 100Hz range. This is where most units do very little in offering good felt sensations.

From months of playing about with effects building and testing, I would say, several effects can benefit a lot with enriched detailing from the 100Hz-200Hz range (with the exciters) bringing much more liveliness in detailing of specific RPM sensations but also naturally generated mid/high bass harmonics from other effects too. I know this from studying and monitoring what frequencies effects are creating via professional based audio hardware/software.

This is a primary reason to rule out the Dayton Puc as its frequency output is limited. I used them in testing but they lacked in comparison as did 3-4 other options I tested. When you seek the best then this is what we do, we compare in real usage scenarios. For me personally, I discovered the best option from testing but now would not have a tactile installation without what the exciters can bring. They exceeded my own expectations in what they could bring to improve the immersion.

What can be achieved with 4, 6 or 8 exciters placed over a seat is much more potential than what Simvibe can offer or even impressive installations like Henks, with BK units at the back of the seat. Multiple exciters can place specific effects to exact body locations or individual units.

We can bypass the common limitations of a single unit trying to output multiple effects at once. This being the often used "less is more" phrase is no longer a limitation. As with a well thought out exciter/tactile installation combination. Now its a case of what effects do we place to each individual units, better highlighting individual effects and apply this to or choosing. Or if required from specific effects we can control layers to operate at specific values/threshold to output an effect over multiple units/body zones at once due to the abilities Simhub now makes possible with channel control that is not possible on other software solutions.

Much more is certainly possible than a standard GS5 and it perhaps using a Simvibe CM/EM installation.

 

[Mr Latte]

I think many of the options Alex showed were irrelevant as they are only tiny haptic devices.
For the exciters I purchased, I had previously examined their operation frequency output charts from specs given.

For my own tests, I used these for comparisons in what each offered for output of effects. Monitoring the frequencies at the same time. This helped me determine how different units performed with specific frequencies and of course what the pros/cons of each unit was.

I wanted to see how units compared with the lowest to the highest bass frequencies.
Note that even subwoofers generally limit to 200Hz as bass becomes more audible, yet this can (if controlled) also bring character to some effects like RPM sensations.

For reference/example of higher Hz being used, would be the engine harmonic mode in Simvibe.

 

[nerdthewise]

Been slacking on keeping up with Race Department the past couple months, but for those curious I just updated my build gallery with how I installed the seat with the tactile and everything else I have built into my rig:

https://imgur.com/a/QjHZKa1

No shade to Latte, but I’ve been pleased enough with my limited tactile that I haven’t felt a pressing need for more (though I do now have a spare NX3000D laying around)

 

[Steve D]

Quick question - can the GS-5 provide a Surge-type effect under acceleration and braking.

I currently have an NLRv3 seat mover integrated with my SFX-100 and the only effect I use from the former is a very small amount of Surge, as the SFX cannot replicate that. For me personally, it's the missing piece of the motion puzzle and I really like the combo. However the weakness of that set up is the solidity and robustness of the seat mover as, under hard braking especially, there is some flex in the V3, albeit I've learnt to modulate my braking to some extent.

Might be tempted by a GS-5 though if it can provide a similar effect.

Thanks.

 

[mikemav]

I think even the old GS4 had the pre-drilled holes for mounting Dayton Pucs. However the Pucs may not be the best tactile option to use.

What you guys won't get with adding Dayton Pucs and when using Simvibe is the ability to combine the motion of the panel with "Lateral G" and "Speed Sensitive Steering" tactile effects. These options are possible with Shakeit and if you want even better tactile performance, my advice is to buy the 40W Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 Thruster Exciter. It can easily be stuck to a surface and will deliver greater detail and bass (also much better with RPM effects) than the Pucs offer.

It's then further possible to combine the exciters with the largest BK units, this again is possible with Shakeit as its not restricted in the ways Simvibe is with CM/EM based channels. Now you can have as many channels as you want and place effects to whatever channels you want. Duplicate/Copy/Paste effects or alter them specifically for individual units roles/specs

I've not read of anyone that owns a GS5 yet test/try this combination.

Mr Latte- good to get back to Race Department and see all the old heads full of hard-won knowledge are still here such as you, Henk, etc...! Some may recall me back in the early days when ISR forums were still a thing, I was experimenting with not only tactile (thanks to a large bit of knowledge from these folks here) but also early implementation of triple-screen 3D surround projection and anything else to make things more immersive. Some of my old YT videos such as the one below (as well as some mods to early Fanatec wheels back when they were new and higher-end than most else available before OSW was a thing) were pretty well received back in the day. Such as this one for example if anyone cares:

.

^^I have since moved on to VR and a 49" ultra-wide for those titles not up to speed on VR yet.

I still tinker with my sim rig but have not been as active of late online. Reason I am writing here is I might volunteer to be your tester if you want to explore adding tactile to the GS5. I pulled the trigger and ordered one on Black Friday. Arrives today. I am selling my NLR V3 motion platform, will use the GS5 on the P1X chassis for now, and experiment with adding tactile in the near future. I will probably also go for a SFX 4DOF build next year as time allows. I already have the Dayton pucks from other projects laying around, as well as 6 BK LFE minis, some Auras and some Rekhorn BS-200 as well as anywhere from 8-12 amp channels available to use. I even have a Mini-DSP 8 channel processor I got originally thinking it might be cool to try to add some delay or EQ to some of the tactile (move engine RPM time delay to the rear or front depending on engine location of simulated car, save various configs to presets, etc..)

Anyway you mentioned no one you know has tried the exciters w/ the GS5 yet, I will order some of those to have on hand too and am glad to take whatever advice on setup you'd like to offer!

 

[Mr Latte]

@mikemav

Good to hear from you, I remember some of the stuff you done. It sounds like your seeking to own an excellent rig yet again. I'd be keen to get your feedback. In general, with what we can do now with Shakeit as part of Simhub software. It completely changes the immersion potential over what Simvibe already has made possible.

Some of the benefits the exciters bring to typical installs are being able to use multiples of them. It means you can have direct detailing to specific body regions and place different effects to these. This brings more defined representation of the effects you use. Or if the user wants they can have some effects output to multiple body regions at once.

It really helps increase the stereo representation of effects, but if you want an RPM or deceleration effect to move from under the seat to your spine to side to shoulders, then this type of thing is also possible (with threshold or delay controls). The potential is really high but it still needs some playing about with the creation of the effect to find effects not just myself enjoy but others find work really well too.

I seen good immersion potential from G load based effects I had tested in the past and thought they should be even better on a seat like a GS5 that could combine the tactile sensations from the G output with physical compression the seat offers.

The exciters can bring superb finesse (if you get the right ones) but also work best when we combine them with large BK units to deliver both the extra detailing from the exciters with nice really deep bass energy. I believe it's possible to further improve the GS5 by pushing the envelope a bit regards effects creativity and this type of installation approach.

 

[mikemav]

Cool, good info! Tell me what you'd suggest for tactile layout for Shakeit on a GS-5 rig as a starting point, hardware-wise? I do not have any of the larger BK Concert or bigger transducers (and I know those can add even more than smaller transducers are capable of), and those are not in the budget/plans for now. I am willing to try your suggestions and provide feedback from testing what I have on hand as mentioned above, which is pretty considerable lot. Also have four of the Dayton exciters coming as well (and already owned the pucks.) Let me know what other info I can share that would be helpful, and I'd like to establish a hardware baseline so I can plan the wiring this weekend at least awaiting the exciters to arrive Tuesday. For example, might it be worthwhile to use a puck for a little more lower end oomph in each of the factory mounting holes provided on GS-5, in addition to planning for at least one exciter per panel? (As in: Should I run 8 pair speaker wire to the seat, even if that might be overkill in the end?) I'd probably lean towards using the BK Mini LFEs, one at each corner of the 80/20 rig (which will eventually be getting SFX100 down the line), maybe something like the Rekhorn on the pedals and LFE or Aura for the seat bottom or seat supports. I'd like to get your advice as to how you'd start given what I have, so let me know what questions you have. I agree tactile will augment the GS-5, excited to see how to best use it. If this gets too OT we can take this to messages or another thread..

 

[mikemav]

Also for any happy GS-5 owners, if you can point me in the direction of some sim commander profiles you are using or like for popular titles that would be a great start. AC, ACC, rf2, Project Cars 2 (since my son likes to race there too) and RaceRoom are what I use mostly, will probably re-up w/ iRacing when this is all up and running too.

 

[Mr Latte]

Cool, good info! Tell me what you'd suggest for tactile layout for Shakeit on a GS-5 rig as a starting point, hardware-wise? I do not have any of the larger BK Concert or bigger transducers (and I know those can add even more than smaller transducers are capable of), and those are not in the budget/plans for now. I am willing to try your suggestions and provide feedback from testing what I have on hand as mentioned above, which is pretty considerable lot. Also have four of the Dayton exciters coming as well (and already owned the pucks.) Let me know what other info I can share that would be helpful, and I'd like to establish a hardware baseline so I can plan the wiring this weekend at least awaiting the exciters to arrive Tuesday. For example, might it be worthwhile to use a puck for a little more lower end oomph in each of the factory mounting holes provided on GS-5, in addition to planning for at least one exciter per panel? (As in: Should I run 8 pair speaker wire to the seat, even if that might be overkill in the end?) I'd probably lean towards using the BK Mini LFEs, one at each corner of the 80/20 rig (which will eventually be getting SFX100 down the line), maybe something like the Rekhorn on the pedals and LFE or Aura for the seat bottom or seat supports. I'd like to get your advice as to how you'd start given what I have, so let me know what questions you have. I agree tactile will augment the GS-5, excited to see how to best use it. If this gets too OT we can take this to messages or another thread..

Too much to cover here, that would need your own build thread and then break things down.

Getting back to just the seat for now....
If you look over the tactile thread the past few months, it covers posts about the exciters and even the 4 channel amp I bought and modded for them (quieter fans). The exciter I recommend has better low end than the Dayton Puc. So no I wouldn't use it as the exciters are so cheap anyways, perhaps sell the Pucs on ebay or members market.

You could start with 4 exciter units but really I see the potential for 2 on each paddle, making upto 8 for the GS5.
Why 2, simply because we then do not overload a single unit (like most people do) and can place individual effects to each for a clearer representation of them.

Several people have approached me in sharing and making effects for the exciters on static builds too using this concept. If you want to focus on the seat then yes you could add a couple of Mini Lfe to the underside of the seat to combine better low-end punch for effects you want to use them with.

Shakeit, still is very much at a point it needs group support to work on creating a fixed hardware solution like I have been suggesting. Then it would be possible to have effects made for that which works for everyone as these are installed directly to body locations.

I have made hundreds of test effects for Shakeit, during this year, only some I released to gain some feedback but its had some updates making some effects redundant. I will be working on new effects for my new install anyways and my own build thread will go into detail about each effect.

Its not that hard to get decent effects from Shakeit with a bit of trying and its much nicer software to use. I am sure others on the Discord would also help or share their own effects with you to help get you going.

Cables:
You can use 8core cable for 4 units rather than single cables for each unit.

 

[mikemav]

okay @Mr Latte I'll gladly be your GS-5 test subject, now have 8 of the 40W exciters inbound. Will work on getting the GS-5 on my rig hopefully by this weekend. NLR V3 and Pimax 5K+ have been sold and are on their way to happy new buyer so I can focus on the G seat and my Index for VR. I'll probably start a build-thread and be sure to tag you for your excellent advice along w/ others. Excited to learn about SimHub and am trying to catch up on your master tactile thread this weekend.

 

[Mr Latte]

okay @Mr Latte I'll gladly be your GS-5 test subject, now have 8 of the 40W exciters inbound. Will work on getting the GS-5 on my rig hopefully by this weekend. NLR V3 and Pimax 5K+ have been sold and are on their way to happy new buyer so I can focus on the G seat and my Index for VR. I'll probably start a build-thread and be sure to tag you for your excellent advice along w/ others. Excited to learn about SimHub and am trying to catch up on your master tactile thread this weekend.

Will keep an eye for your thread.

I dont know what space the panels have, below them as the 32EP-4 exciters are a bit taller so I hope these still fit in the space. Here is a comparison between the Dayton Puc, the 32EP-4 and the 32U models I spent a couple of months testing with various effects.


You will get much more thrilling RPM detailing with these than what typical units like the Reckhorn or BK Mini produce. The reason being they are more lively with harmonics. This also makes them excellent for wheelslip effects and lateral sensations like speed-sensitive steering. For lateral G we can use deeper bass but in truth to get this to feel at its best needs the biggest BK units.

This is an example of testing I was doing way back last year on seeing which effects worked well in stereo. Lateral G effect was created by a member on the Simhub Discord channel as its not an effect that comes as standard. I think I perhaps go much deeper into monitoring effects and creation of effects than most people but its just an interest I had and something I wanted to learn more about. So part of this was investing in hardware and a solution that made things like below possible. I now have the ability to monitor 16 channels of effects at once via PC, iPad or Android tablets.


Lateral G example:

This highlights how, speed, steering input and suspension activity go towards determining the output for the G load. We see one side/channel active most, but also instances when both sides have activity with less/more output.

I dont know how well a GS5 varies between different cars other than it perhaps pushing more into the user with cars that generate higher values. I believe one of the benefits of adding advanced tactile to work with the GS5 is that with tactile we can have different felt effects for certain types of car.

Not just increases with the volume/gain that is applied between say a moderately fast car and a very fast car but actually have the effect use a different vibrational character and sensation. This is something that can be worked on if desired.

It would be good to get some GS5 owners to give more input on how the seat copes with different cars or sims it works better with than others?

 

[mikemav]

So forgive my ignorance, as I have never seen the (intended) Dayton puc installed on a GS-5 in the holes provided; is the intention as you understand it that the transducers mount on the underside of the panels? There is nothing in the GS-5 manual to mention the mounting method or even highlight the purpose of these holes. I was assuming there was not room on the underside and they'd mount on top (and then some foam would be needed probably to make it more comfortable/even to sit on.) Perhaps I misunderstood. Is your idea to mount the exciters on the underside of the panel, one towards the top half near the existing holes, and one lower towards the bottom part of each panel? There might be room on top, looks to be somewhere between 30-40mm max under there if the panels as they sit are at their lowest. Doubt there is much room at all on the lower portion, I'll have to investigate more. Some crappy cell phone pics as unpacking for reference.