PC2 Sim Discussion Monday - Project CARS 2

[Paul Jeffrey]

First day back in the office for many this morning, what better way to pass the time than have a good discussion about the new Project CARS game?

Now the dust is beginning to settle around the recent release of Project CARS 2, we thought it a good time to look deeper into the game, driven by our community, and share our findings and impressions from the heavily hyped new racing title from Slightly Mad Studios.

Do you have some useful tips for getting the most from the sim? Found a magic setting to really unlock the FFB? Got a trick up your sleeve that helps bring sharper graphics for little FPS trade off? Or do you simply want to share your most / least favourite car and track combinations?

So long as it remains on topic, respectful and mature, we want to know your thoughts!

Mondays be like...

 

[Leynad777]

pCars 2 for me and with my setup is by far the best sim i've ever played. Nothing comes close to this awesome tyre-model and with a few exceptions (Cayman Cup, Mercedes 190 Group A) all the cars i tested that are in AC as well, are better in pCars 2 and most even by far. Just tested the Porsche 918 and Porsche 911 GT3 RS and they both make more sense in pCars 2 as well. The 911 GT3 RS is tail-happy and not that planted and the 918 no suicide car like in AC.

 

[ermo]

Well, AMS is slip-curve based, but much more complex than basic Pacejka, AC is Brush based but so was pCARS1 and there is WORLD of difference between the two ...so, "brush based" doesn't say much.

pCARS 1 introduced the Seta Tyre Model. It is NOT brush based. pC2 contains an improved iteration of the STM in pC1.

Also AC simulates a TON of stuff like blistering, that the braking load sensitivity of a tire is different from acceleration load sensitivity and a lot, LOT of little things that don't need a rocket scientist to model them, it's pretty simple stuff, but it adds up so that your "pCARS2's new kind of tire model simulates much more" probably isn't true.

However, I do believe you that pCARS2's tire model simulates the more important things in fairly complexer ways than AMS and AC and it shows in this great FFB that ...actually most cars in pCARS2 display. I'm really very very happy with how it feels, how much information get off it and how confident it makes me. The handling still seems ..."forgiving" I'd say - in a not-100% sim way. Like, if there were variables in the tire model that are based on personal opinion and educated guesses, then "let's rather make it a little easier than to shoot for the most realistic values without compromise".

With the pC2 STM, I estimate that my i7 3770k@4.5 GHz would be able to simulate two cars running a full STM. In AC that number approaches 10. However good AC's tyre model is (and I'm not criticising here!), everything I've seen indicates to me that the STM is the more advanced model. That said, I'm certainly open to corrections if it turns out that I am misinformed.

As for the bolded part, all I can say is that if you had been privvy to WMD testing, then I am confident that you wouldn't be able to make statements like the above with a straight face. If there is a compromise, it is to be considered a software defect (i.e. a bug), not a design choice as you seem to imply.

That said, I'm not claiming that the STM has yet seen as many development hours as AC's or AMS' tyre models. It is also not out of the question that the feel of the STM tyres will improve with time as the developers learn more and become more familiar with its quirks.

And again: I recognize that many people hold AC and AMS in high esteem. I'm not challenging that.

I'm merely making a comment on the complexity of the three different approaches to tyre modeling and pointing out that if you like pCARS's RAW FFB, you are implicitly commenting that the output of pC2's physics subsystems subjectively makes sense to you (with a few caveats).

And what higher praise is there really?

 

[TylerDurden4321]

As for the bolded part, all I can say is that if you had been privvy to WMD testing, then I am confident that you wouldn't be able to make statements like the above with a straight face. If there is a compromise, it is to be considered a software defect (i.e. a bug), not a design choice as you seem to imply.

Not so sure, sorry. AMS and a very few rF2 cars still nail realism in terms of difficulty. pCARS2 seems too easy. I know "hard doesn't mean realistic", but I still feel that way.

I'm merely making a comment on the complexity of the three different approaches to tyre modeling and pointing out that if you like pCARS's RAW FFB, you are implicitly commenting that the output of pC2's physics subsystems subjectively make sense to you (with a few caveats).

And what higher praise is there really?

I agree here, and it's meant to be high praise! It does feel genuinely amazing and that really seems to come from something mathematically complex and dynamic and more so than any other sim I've felt until this day.
It's definitely still got its kinks though. For example trail-braking in some cars: Locking up the inside front wheel leads to extreme oversteer instead of understeer, it's like a force-burst/shock coming from the last maximum flex before lock-up that turns the car in more. Try the McLaren P1 for example at Silverstone National or AMG GT3 at Road America. That's a tire-simulation thing not just a weird setup.
Also the engine and turbo simulation needs some love, there the game is not as high-tech as in the tire and aero modeling.

Just tested the Porsche 918 and Porsche 911 GT3 RS and they both make more sense in pCars 2 as well.

Tried the GT3 RS at Catalunya, amazing! Also amazing: Caterham 620R at Lydden Hill (not RX version). My third favorite so far: untuned BMW 2002 at Cadwell.
Game is a bugfest, but I can keep myself happy for at least another 50 hours like this before I want at least some issues adressed in a patch.

 

[Nick Hill]

What about Oggy?

Just wondering if you are he/he is you.

 

[Chobonator]

Just wondering if you are he/he is you.

He's shorter, younger, faster and has an authentic Canadian accent.

 

[Deleted member 99238]

Who liked the PCars 2 put like:

 

[PaulH]

Assetto Corsa Love it!
rFactor 2 Love it!
Raceroom Love it!
AMS Love it!

Welcome Project Cars 2, you are more than welcome to sit in my "Sim Racing" library

 

[frankis]

Can anyone explain this to me?
Whith many cars (if not all) you achieve better times with wet tires than with slicks. In nurburing, for instance, with the bmw gr5 I get 4 seconds less than with soft slicks under dry conditions. Even if wet conditions I obtain lower times.

Anyway, PC2 is a great improvements over PC1, but there are still many bugs and many odd things to improve.
The one thing in which PC2 beats other racing sims is in the management of weather conditions, but there is no drying racing line yet, like you can see in rF2. Maybe we have to wait to livetrack 9.0 and PC5 for that!

 

[Deleted member 99238]

I was wondering that was well. It seems as long as you turn on cockpit mirrors there will be a mirror in all cars of some kind. If the cockpit mirrors cant be seen a center virtual mirror shows up.

Thank you, kind man, finally got it.

 

[falster]

Redacted. Ignore

 

[ronniej]

For me personally I thought it was ok, had hopes of it being "revolutionary"...but only 2.8hrs with it, it unfortunately reminded me how this team abandoned their first Pcars and I will wait to see how it gets looked after and possibly add it to my library in the future......This release is part of the reason I have a lot of respect for the teams like Reiza and Kunos and I have high hopes for Studio 397 with rF2....

I have three questions for @Ian Bell if I may?

1. Was their a day 1 patch and what did it fix?
2. Why didn't all your backers/beta testers see how bad the AI were in testing?
3. And have you started work on Pcars 3 yet?

That's actually three and a half questions, my bad.

+1

 

[Kurupt CDN]

Can anyone explain this to me?
Whith many cars (if not all) you achieve better times with wet tires than with slicks. In nurburing, for instance, with the bmw gr5 I get 4 seconds less than with soft slicks under dry conditions. Even if wet conditions I obtain lower times.

This is from there website:
The softs are not meant to be faster.
They're meant to be used when the track temp is low, as in real life nowadays.
So, with a hot track, it's normal that they're not as performant as the hards.

You can check the pirelli website,you'll have the info
Edit : can't find the link, will check that later.

Confirmation from a moderator/dev:
This is correct. Tire compound is based on temperature. Yes, many years ago soft tires meant faster but those days are gone. Harder compound no longer means slower. It's all based on the operating temperature you can maintain in the tires.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sh...t-Seem-Right-(soft-vs-hard-tires)-It-is-right

 

[PicoBp]

but there is no drying racing line yet, like you can see in rF2.

Yes, there is. And dynamic track temps, rubbering and water puddles actually forming realistically. This is one thing they actually got pretty spot on.

 

[Nunzio]

I like it, my favorite so far is the Group C cars running with the GTO class, it's just so 80's and 90's. The rain effect is great and the graphics superb. Immersion for me is great and can really get a sense of speed. The AI do slow too much for some corners, but for the most part are ok. I thought my rig wouldn't run it, but everything on High and Ultra for car detail is smooth.

 

[felippekiss]

For me it was a pleasant surprise, because my expectations were very low because of the first game. This second may not be the maximum benchmark of physics but it is much better than the first, only point that bothered me is only noticed watching the replays where the sound of the car from far already comes high doesn't exist as he approaches the sound rising, otherwise I have nothing to complain about.

 

[frankis]

Yes, there is. And dynamic track temps, rubbering and water puddles actually forming realistically. This is one thing they actually got pretty spot on.

It must be invisible!

 

[frankis]

This is from there website:
The softs are not meant to be faster.
They're meant to be used when the track temp is low, as in real life nowadays.
So, with a hot track, it's normal that they're not as performant as the hards.

You can check the pirelli website,you'll have the info
Edit : can't find the link, will check that later.

Confirmation from a moderator/dev:
This is correct. Tire compound is based on temperature. Yes, many years ago soft tires meant faster but those days are gone. Harder compound no longer means slower. It's all based on the operating temperature you can maintain in the tires.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sh...t-Seem-Right-(soft-vs-hard-tires)-It-is-right

Thanks for that information. But the weird thing here is that wet tires beat soft and hard tires by a landslide on dry conditions.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

This is from there website:
The softs are not meant to be faster.
They're meant to be used when the track temp is low, as in real life nowadays.
So, with a hot track, it's normal that they're not as performant as the hards.

You can check the pirelli website,you'll have the info
Edit : can't find the link, will check that later.

Confirmation from a moderator/dev:
This is correct. Tire compound is based on temperature. Yes, many years ago soft tires meant faster but those days are gone. Harder compound no longer means slower. It's all based on the operating temperature you can maintain in the tires.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sh...t-Seem-Right-(soft-vs-hard-tires)-It-is-right

Thanks for that information. But the weird thing here is that wet tires beat soft and hard tires by a landslide on dry conditions.

The thread was about hard vs soft tires, they didn't say anything wrong I think. But rain tires are treaded and can't be faster than slicks, slicks should be MUCH faster, even if they're 30°C below ideal temperature. Now if you look at a treaded sport tire against a rain tire... it depends on the tire, but even on a very cold track the sport tire should beat the rain tire. You should report this on the forums (going by pCARS1, screenshots and videos help, sometimes people there just don't believe you without evidence... I guess there are too many morons on those forums, who don't play racing games and don't watch motorsport and just don't know ****, but have to post anyway)

 

[Ian Bell]

Thanks for that information. But the weird thing here is that wet tires beat soft and hard tires by a landslide on dry conditions.

I took the liberty of passing this on to our handling team. Jussi got back with:

"Would need more data, specifically what cars, and knowing the conditions could help as well.

The wet tyres are a very sticky rubber compound, but usually overheat badly, and have their optimum temp lower than dry tyres as well. Most of the time this means they won't be faster than dry tyres in their optimum temperatures.

However we mostly model one main wet compound that gets shared between many different cars, so if the car has a low grip dry tyre and the conditions are cool enough for the rain tyres to not overheat, the slicks might be left behind. It's the reason you quite often see even F1 cars in old videos driving wets on a dry track during winter/early spring testing, they're better suited for those conditions.

In my testing during "normal" temperatures for real racing series I never saw wet tyres being faster than dry tyres, but there are so many variables in our simulation these days...

If we can identify any cars/classes which are the primary candidates we can create specific rain tyre versions for them that are less capable in the dry."

 

[Rob]

Is anyone playing on xbox? I get the sense we are talking about two different games. Being so hardware intensive, and being as horrendous (too long a list to go into here,but start with the A.I. making it unplayable and ovals being un-raceable with no cautions) as it is, on console, I suspect it's a sheer money grab, similar to Kunos. At least with Forza (and now Assetto) you can play in a lobby without knowing your race will end prematurely.