AC Rookies: Audi Sport TT Cup at Le Mans - Wednesday 14th June 2017

[BhZ]

@Rupe Wilson I will just say that i raced 3 hours in that server before the event and i saw some of the guys driving and making decent times. Then during practice the time were still the same (slightly modified by the p2p). Then quali arrived and somehow people that were consistent on their lap time started being 2 seconds or more faster. So i made my lap, which was a 4.32.0 (which was quite good compared to my laptimes during practice) and i started watching my competition in order to understand how they gained 2 seconds just changing session. What i saw was a huge amount cutting (meaning 4 wheels over the white line) which explained perfectly what was going on. Honestly i felt a bit let down since i expected a fair race in a good community like this. I raced anyway the way i used to do. I put 4 wheels on the curb in the last chicane once by mistake and didn't get a penalty, which means that to get one, you really have to be aggressive (probably 2 wheels on the curb and 2 over that, my guess). Imho we should ask the creator of Le Mans to rework a bit the track to implement better the rules and avoid cutting. Luckily enough this is probably the only track where these problems can occur and i understand this is a rookie race, but still...

 

[PfzFantaribo]

@PfzFantaribo
ok i had a quick look at the replay of your race, on lap 2 you do seem to be cutting the track (right over the curbs second chicane) and running wide on a number of occasions, i see no real lifting of the gas, You did drive right across the last chicane at speed after stopping in a attempt to get out in front of the car behind you. You should of waited longer and joined the track safely and correctly.

I did not lift because actually I lost fair bit of tenth's of a second (at least I think so). Maybe my behavior was clunky at that last chicane (no intention to disturb the car behind even through I did). But, my point is, I went to a full stop, and paid my fair share based on what going 4 wheels over the line gave me.

@Rupe Wilson I will just say that i raced 3 hours in that server before the event and i saw some of the guys driving and making decent times. Then during practice the time were still the same (slightly modified by the p2p). Then quali arrived and somehow people that were consistent on their lap time started being 2 seconds or more faster. So i made my lap, which was a 4.32.0 (which was quite good compared to my laptimes during practice) and i started watching my competition in order to understand how they gained 2 seconds just changing session. What i saw was a huge amount cutting (meaning 4 wheels over the white line) which explained perfectly what was going on. Honestly i felt a bit let down since i expected a fair race in a good community like this. I raced anyway the way i used to do. I put 4 wheels on the curb in the last chicane once by mistake and didn't get a penalty, which means that to get one, you really have to be aggressive (probably 2 wheels on the curb and 2 over that, my guess). Imho we should ask the creator of Le Mans to rework a bit the track to implement better the rules and avoid cutting. Luckily enough this is probably the only track where these problems can occur and i understand this is a rookie race, but still...

Fair point. Next time, when you're watching someone that goes 4 wheels over the line, take a look at his laptimes (in the menu) and you can actually see if it has been invalidated or not (bright red). If so, that lap won't matter. If not, then record it. It happened to me, as 2 of my 4 quali lap where invalid.

The real problem with that track is that the cut detection is not consistent. No detection at all at the beginning of Mulsanne straight, or the last chicanes like you said.

 

[BhZ]

The real problem with that track is that the cut detection is not consistent. No detection at all at the beginning of Mulsanne straight, or the last chicanes like you said.

It's true, it's not consistent but not the way you mean it. It is way too forgiving and people started taking advantage of it. Who took a penalty deserved it unless he got it because he avoided an incident. If everyone respected the racedepartment rule, no one and i repeat, NO ONE would have got a penalty for cutting simply because the racedepartement rule is way more strict than the track limits.
EDIT: I got one lap invalidated during quali because i run wide in a turn and it would have given me an advantage. All the other laps were not invalidated...How come i haven't received any penalty during the race? Am i that lucky?

 

[RasmusP]

Maybe lucky, maybe very cautios I didn't have the penalties in mind while racing and I am one of the guys who really don't want to crash into others so if it goes too tight I just go wide and leave the track. Of course I give back the time/position if I gained any but most times it already costs me plenty.
Didn't work this time
I think we all should be little "policemen" and just report it if someone abuses track limits. In my opinion penalties should be disabled and we should be strict to the rules. With our selfs and with each other until the track abusement stops

 

[Rupe Wilson]

I did not lift because actually I lost fair bit of tenth's of a second (at least I think so). Maybe my behavior was clunky at that last chicane (no intention to disturb the car behind even through I did). But, my point is, I went to a full stop, and paid my fair share based on what going 4 wheels over the line gave me.
The real problem with that track is that the cut detection is not consistent. No detection at all at the beginning of Mulsanne straight, or the last chicanes like you said.

Well here is a vid of your last lap,(sorry for the wide screen view) we pick it up before the finish line, and follow the car round the track,
you seem to forget about the times in the lap you cut or ran wide and just complain about the end of the lap. only 1 time did i see a tiny little lift of the gas.... the rest of the time you was wide open..
And you did not come to a complete stop at the end as you say.

Im sorry but this kind of driving is not acceptable and below RD standards, so please adjust your driving next time.
I will add this was not the only car to have similar driving lines through out the race.. so it applies to all who think cutting corners with out lifting is acceptable,
together we can stamp this driving out but i cant do it all on my own.

 

[BhZ]

Maybe lucky, maybe very cautios I didn't have the penalties in mind while racing and I am one of the guys who really don't want to crash into others so if it goes too tight I just go wide and leave the track. Of course I give back the time/position if I gained any but most times it already costs me plenty.
Didn't work this time
I think we all should be little "policemen" and just report it if someone abuses track limits. In my opinion penalties should be disabled and we should be strict to the rules. With our selfs and with each other until the track abusement stops

There is no perfect way to handle this problem. You either use penalties or not. If you don't, someone will have to see the race once it ends and punish those who did something wrong. Then there would be all the reports that would arrive to the admins and would spend a day checking them.

 

[Rupe Wilson]

The last thing i want is to use the AC penalties system. but after driving in most of the events this week and other various events seeing the same offences over and over again in the replays it was time to act, I have asked many times to no avail.
All the time the Audi tt server was up, the same penalty system was in place. i never changed it for race night.
As i said i am sorry for any incidents caused by the system but in all fairness for the most it was the driver in front running wide and not sticking to track limits that caused the issue.
Drivers have to learn to accept some drivers are faster than others, but cutting is not the answer in a effort to keep up.

All i want is it to be fair for all as you all do i hope.

 

[BrianUK]

I'll hold my hands up and say I was a little guilty of running over the wrong side of the white lines. One time that especially sticks in my mind is right after I'd passed Rupe and had a poor line into T2 trying something new, where I then ran out wider than I wanted in T3 but I knew I had the safety net because the penalty wasn't going to hit me as long as I kept the outside edge of my tyres on the line (at least, that's where I thought the wheels were). I think I even heard him quietly 'hmm' when it happened .

That being said, I do try to stay within the track limits and I detest when my PB is set by exceeding them. However, anyone deliberately abusing the limits would've gained more than just 2 seconds over the lap, so to say you being slower is because you're an angel and the other person is a cheat is disingenuous. There was also nil benefit to running wide in the turn before Mulsanne.

But the two times I *did* get a penalty, once was while I was battling and ran wide into a gravel trap, the other was me making an error and getting my line wrong into the first of the final chicanes. I could take the second one, as I was trying to catch up after starting from the pit lane, but the first was frustrating as I was battling for position.

 

[RasmusP]

There is no perfect way to handle this problem. You either use penalties or not. If you don't, someone will have to see the race once it ends and punish those who did something wrong. Then there would be all the reports that would arrive to the admins and would spend a day checking them.

I agree! I think, or more, I have the hope that if everyone would report it if he sees abusement and if the staff will dig through it, it would be a matter of 1-3 weeks until the abusement would be gone. I don't know how much work it is for the staff but I think it's not too much since the cases, if on Video, are pretty clear to decide.
But I can understand that it would be too much to ask
@Rupe Wilson thanks for the nice Video and the work behind that!
Just to say it: I am not complaining about the penalties! It just changes the way of driving (stay on track no matter what) in a way I don't find "safe and realistic" but I can totally understand that it was necessary!
If anyone catches me going over the limit: I am sorry! I already got last so I definitely didn't gain time from it

 

[matt bosch]

Sorry i though the race was the 15. M'y mistake.

 

[Neilski]

Well here is a vid of your last lap

OMG, I love the mousey sign language Rupe Awesome vid. And um, yeah, quite a bit of cutting too!

I got more than one penalty, one of which was for going wide after being bumped during a passing attempt (by someone else on me, maybe, can't quite recall).
What hacked me off though most was the extra penalty I got while trying to slow down for another penalty - it was telling me to lift off for N seconds (10?) or slow down to < 35 km/h and while concentrating on that I stuffed up the last chicane, bounced over a kerb, and suddenly it turned into a straight 20 seconds off the gas. Given that I was losing loads of time anyway (i.e. not gaining by cutting) it's just ridiculous for AC to levy that kind of penalty, and it's just a total race-destroyer when it happens.
I hope I don't sound whiney about this. I'm really glad this wasn't my first race with you lot, or it'd probably have been my last.

 

[Rupe Wilson]

Well hopefully guys will get the message and i wont need to go down that root again.
Next time i will make race reports and send them to our admin to look over and deal with them as they see fit.
which i don't want to have to do but i will if needed.

 

[Denis Betty]

Well hopefully guys will get the message and i wont need to go down that root again.
Next time i will make race reports and send them to our admin to look over and deal with them as they see fit.
which i don't want to have to do but i will if needed.

Keep up the good work Rupe.
I think somebody said it already... If everybody sticks to track limits and RD rules, then nobody gets a penalty. That way, it's fair for everybody and we are all winners and nobody needs to be a whiner.

 

[Arcon]

Hello,

what i am a little concerned of is that it seems not to be a rookie race anymore. There are mainly two sides to be spectates. First it is important to learn from better drivers, second it forces our brains to conquer to each other, what makes the game out of it . These facts will force a result of great pressure to lower players and frustration to greater ones that cannot drive their clean lines (or vice versa) ... anyhow, there is always a difference in between every palyer on track.

I think that a rookie race should be known as a "friendly-" match to assist everybody having fun. The experienced player may stick in a swarm of players rather than nailing the track and flaming about slower ones blocking them. Try to get lower players to feel comfortable and carried through the track -> that could be a challange for several experienced simmers and is a great challange serving respect and force human respect.

If racers are forced to cut the track because they see no other chance to follow the experienced ones or just dont get the car right/clean through, the pressure is too high and you should be aware of it by eg. "lifting of the gas to prevent errors" -> but, nobody would like to do that! So your challange is not anymore to follow the nailer, your challange is to get a clean line on track. Meanwhile the nailers slow down a little to force racing in a swarm with communication and fun.

We all know that there are a lot of different facts influencing the game and its in our own descition if we react friendly or in competition style. I think that winning in a rookie race should not be the primary target, its more about online racing at its basics and glance.

The new rules also disqualified me because i run over the finish line before i could manage to take my penalty. I was supprised but it is true, i did not respected the order and was disqualified. Next time i do it better - promise

 

[Lars Rystedt]

Hello,


The new rules also disqualified me because i run over the finish line before i could manage to take my penalty. I was supprised but it is true, i did not respected the order and was disqualified. Next time i do it better - promise

Well, actually @Arcon you could have done much worse than a DNF. At the very start you pushed me no less than three times before you sent me into the wall. Not only that, you did not acknowledge the fact that you did, no apologies and even worse; you did not wait for me and surrendered your place but continued.
That is a breach of the Golden Rule here in RD and as I am sure you noticed a bannable offense. However, to be that a complaint has to be forwarded to the staff by me which I haven't, neither have I confronted you with this.

I fully agree with you stating "rookie race should be known as a "friendly-"", but that also means that you and I as rookies should show everyone participating consideration. That does not only mean no cutting, going wide for gain but also no pushing, no deliberate weaving to block, no dive bombing, always slow down on yellow flags (which is a warning of something ahead), don't throw yourself everywhere on blue flags (hard lesson to learn I know) and a lot more. And accept responsibility when doing wrong, apoligise, wait no matter how many cars go by for the one you have done wrong.

As I said above, I did not forward a complain last time. But please do not do any stunt like that again or I will.

 

[Rupe Wilson]

Foremost all club races should be raced in a friendly manner it about having fun. the position you finish should not really matter, its about having fun with friends online, Its a 2 hour bit of fun away form the real world, time to relax and enjoy. But i feel sometimes its all taken way to seriously, and its all about the win over taking part.. the only real challenge is you against the track. being able to do that with a group of like mended enthusiasts in a controlled environment is a bonus.

i would like to point out that there are no new rules these are the same we should use every race, the only difference being that this time i let the game control them. And we cant complain about that its Kunos the king of sims, everything in the game is perfect.. (private joke going on here guys)
but in reality if you did keep within the track limits and was be careful in your driving and not have unnecessary contact you would not even realise the rules were on.
You have to police yourselves, at times.
You know if you went wide or cut a corner, come on be honest think about it. just lift off the gas whilst off track and then carry on..
You know if you bumped a driver off track though a clumsy maneuver. if in doubt wait,don't take the chance that it won't get reported. its not just a golden rule, its a golden ticket, its a get out of jail free card.. just give the position back its not the end of the world..

look at how professional drivers drive on track, for the most its clean and fair racing.. yes there will always be the odd mistake, but they are racing for their jobs, money is involved, there is a lot at stake, its the pressure that does this, we are racing in a friendly environment we should not really have these problems. we pass on setups help drivers with racing lines ect..
Don't let your win at all cost attitude spoil your racing its not worth it..
The attitude in club races has to change and change for the better.
if you want to test yourself join a league, but leave your egos at the door when club racing..
You are right Friendly Events is better than rookie events. (Noted and changed) lets hope it gets the message across.
Now if you look at our rules they are supposed to be easy to follow, nothing to complicated.
but i bet half of our drivers have never even seen them or taken the time to read them.
Now is your chance. CLICK ME when you have read them click a like if you want
if your unsure about any of them just tag me and ill answer any questions you have..

I for one hope you will never have to make a race report, . but do please make one if you feel that it is necessary.
and the incident cant be corrected in a pm, but if you see a driver blatantly abusing our rules again please make a report.
Making a report can be as easy as getting out you mobile phone and recording the bit of the replay of the race and pop it on you tube..
its 10 mins work. As long as it shows whats happened, then send me a pm with the details also..
but most incidents can be sorted out by pm, if you keep it friendly, that's why we say take 24 hours to cool down if needed before sending it.

Im sure over the coming weeks we can turn this around as a group, i think we can all agree when we let AC have control of the rules its not as much fun.. so lets all remember this, and clean up the driving so i don't need to use them again to prove my point. and not have them as a permanent feature in the races run at RD..

 

[Arcon]

@PfzFantaribohere is a replay of the race if you did not manage to save it Click ME

im am sry that my words did not come to you Lars Rystedt through, while we have been driving. It tooked me a while after the crash to find words because things went seemly wrong on my side. I checked the replay, car 15 was me in cockpit view and on car 25 you get a different angle to what happened. Till i watched the replay i did not see that the track ended and my left side was suddenly with 2 wheels in gras. I appologized the first bumb while i tried to get aligned and if you go on my view i had the impression you have been pushing me more to the left than to leave space where i wanted/tried without success to sneek through. I was unsure and had more the impression you locked your line pushing me out ... thats why it tooked me a while to react to what i did within the first round but i appologized and out of my view someone (i expected you) was going in front of me back on track. Sry again that it happened like this, but at min 3 ill let someone pass, just not to cause more troubles ... believe me i learned from that now!

If you report me and i should get a "punish" from RD for my driving, than the lesson is only harder to take and must have at least a true core to think about ... its on you, ill take it as it was But anyhow Lars, we know each other already for several races and never had a problem within several take overs showing respect to each other ... this should not change.

 

[Lars Rystedt]

Good enough, thank you @Arcon ! See you soon

 

[Neilski]

I like the idea of the name change
Le Mans has a lot of corners and some of them have kerbs that are so far past the white lines, you would struggle to touch them at all if you kept two wheels at or inside the lines (e.g. the first chicane on the long straight). The game doesn't penalise you for that crossing of the white lines (which clearly gains lap time) but it does penalise you for others (like drifting beyond the lines on the main straight itself) which feels a bit nutty.
Don't misinterpret this as a defence of cutting - I dislike cutting and cutters a lot and I try really hard not to cut the track myself. Le Mans though is really long and with only an hour or two of practice it's nearly impossible to learn which corners are "expected"/permitted to be cut and which aren't, given that (in practice mode) the game only gives you at most ONE clue per lap when it says that you've cut the track. I guess in race mode you get many clues per lap but on most tracks I don't struggle to work out where the limits are so it has never before occurred to me to practice a track in race mode. (I will never again race at Le Mans on a server with the Kunos cut-detection turned on as it's simply too broken.)
The irony I think is that a great deal of the cuts which led to penalties were unintentional and actually cost the driver time.
As for bumping and letting people past again and indeed complaints... For me it's all about having fun and driving to my potential, whether that's at the front or the back. And in many respects, if another driver is happy to knock me sideways off an apex and keep going, I'm happy to let him go, because I'm clearly NOT going to have fun battling against him side by side.

 

[BhZ]

Hello,

what i am a little concerned of is that it seems not to be a rookie race anymore. There are mainly two sides to be spectates. First it is important to learn from better drivers, second it forces our brains to conquer to each other, what makes the game out of it . These facts will force a result of great pressure to lower players and frustration to greater ones that cannot drive their clean lines (or vice versa) ... anyhow, there is always a difference in between every palyer on track.

I think that a rookie race should be known as a "friendly-" match to assist everybody having fun. The experienced player may stick in a swarm of players rather than nailing the track and flaming about slower ones blocking them. Try to get lower players to feel comfortable and carried through the track -> that could be a challange for several experienced simmers and is a great challange serving respect and force human respect.

If racers are forced to cut the track because they see no other chance to follow the experienced ones or just dont get the car right/clean through, the pressure is too high and you should be aware of it by eg. "lifting of the gas to prevent errors" -> but, nobody would like to do that! So your challange is not anymore to follow the nailer, your challange is to get a clean line on track. Meanwhile the nailers slow down a little to force racing in a swarm with communication and fun.

We all know that there are a lot of different facts influencing the game and its in our own descition if we react friendly or in competition style. I think that winning in a rookie race should not be the primary target, its more about online racing at its basics and glance.

The new rules also disqualified me because i run over the finish line before i could manage to take my penalty. I was supprised but it is true, i did not respected the order and was disqualified. Next time i do it better - promise

I think that when we talk about rookie races, what we all mean is a race with an "easy car" and fixed setup. I understand that rookies may find discouraging racing against people with more experience, but this is how you learn. Racing against people of your level will never make you a better driver. First thing, you have to learn to be fast and CONSISTENT when you are alone on track. Only then you can train in close racing. The best thing you can do now is watch the top3 in the previous race in the replay and see how they drive. Study their lines, brake point, the use of pedals and the steering. I'm often in the servers training every time i have the chance. If you see me or others, just join and ask for advice, watch us doing some laps. If you feel the pressure from a non rookie driver, then that driver is not that good. I've never caused incidents and i've never been involved in one here on racedepartment simply because my first preoccupation is to have a clean race. Results comes later. A better driver will overtake you when he has a chance and most important, when he feels safe doing so.