read more: FFB Tweaks

I've worked with x4fab to add a new feature to the Custom Shaders Patch (as of 0.1.51) and the description is fairly brief so I thought it's worth going into a bit more detail about what this does.

7hNkrdT.png


Gyro Implementation

[ ] Active check to enable
Strength 25% adjust effect strength
AC has an "Experimental Gyro" FFB effect whose purpose was adding gyroscopic effects to the steering. It never lost the experimental tag and all it's generally recommended for is damping down oscillations on direct drive wheels.
This is that, developed slightly further based on my understanding of the nature of gyroscopic forces. I have a pretty solid case for making this change, and I believe this force exists in actual cars, and AC's original experimental gyro does not.

The developed version still suits the purpose of damping oscillations, but more importantly it decouples the body from the front wheels - so if the front wheels are pointing in a direction and the body moves around them, no gyroscopic precession happens, and no force is generated. Concretely, what we're talking about here is oversteer - on the original experimental gyro, the force acts counter to self-alignment during oversteer. With this new implementation, self-alignment is allowed to occur freely, or, if the oversteer is so quick that the wheels can't self-align, it'll actually push in the direction of alignment.

25% is simply equivalent to the original force multiplier used on experimental gyro when merging it with other FFB forces. Ultimately, the same as the other amplification ffb effects like road and slip effect, the slider is available to magnify it if your hardware's limitations are obscuring the effect.
As of CSP 0.1.53 the strength slider is outdated. A calculation using the suspension geometry now provides the right precession-based force for each car.
The description is a little bit misleading; this replaces "Experimental Gyro" so disabling it is superfluous, if this is Active, experimental gyro is not. Still, it won't hurt to disable experimental gyro and be certain it's off.

Now that I've said what the intent is, I will also note the following: this changes FFB in pretty much every dynamic situation. It's not just an improvement for drift cars or for vintage cars that oversteer constantly; any time the car moves around on the tires it feels slightly different from before. To me, it's a positive change, it's clearer what the car is doing, and I have heard similarly positive comments from testers. Nonetheless, I am not omniscient, I have not driven all these cars in real life, it's up to you to decide whether it improves your game or gives you better sim feeling the rubber or what. Modifying games to improve the FFB is a fine tradition starting with some extremely thorough efforts in rfactor1, and this is no different (maybe a bit easier to install).

I will note that it slightly increases max forces when cornering so if you have stuff set up to barely clip, you'll need an adjustment downward in global ffb mult.

Range Compression

Range compression 100% - 100% is the "default off" of this effect
[ ] Range compression assist - check to convert cars' "steer assist" into range compression.

New FFB Tweak available as of 0.1.53. The name comes from the audio world, where dynamic range compression means bringing up the quiet sounds while leaving loud sounds at their original volume. This is a much more second derivative friendly version of the Gamma effect.

The percentage is straightforward: Set it to how much you want to multiply small forces. Or adjust it in sync with your overall gain if you want to maintain the level of small forces and change large forces. For example, 200% compression + 50% gain = original 100% on small forces, larger forces decrease. If you're curious, the curve at the point of maximum force is simply the inverse, 200% compression will cause large forces 50% of the original delta in force. But in combination with 50% gain, you're moving the original maximum force downward and the ceiling before the game clips is much higher.

Think of this like power steering: you only want it to assist the heavy forces and give you maximum feel of the light forces.

This is very much an "adjust to taste" thing, it operates smoothly enough that you're safe running it upward of 300%, and I have seen IRL data indicating that manufacturers effectively go as high as 600% in power steering systems, when they want to bring 20+N forces down to a comfortable 2-3N.

Steer assist is a built in per-car feature of AC that applies a gamma function to that car's FFB. If you check Range compression assist, then FFB Tweaks will calculate an appropriate range compression adjustment, and disable steer assist. This should give you a far more normal FFB feeling (no weird bumps around center) while retaining the original goal of giving high downforce cars enough low-speed FFB to be drivable.
 
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  • Deleted member 197115

Someone in a Youtube comment explained me why it's better to use FFBTweaks Gyro instead of the original.. so I switched to that again. At 25% it just gives way too much oscillation so I set it at 10% which makes it a bitter better to control.
Can't reduce the overall gain since ffbclip only works correctly at 100% gain.
Except that gain slider accordingly to mod creator has no effect whatsoever. :roflmao:
 
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I use FFBgain again, that only works correct when Gain is set to 100% in AC, otherwise it randomly loses ffb completely.
Yeah that's apparently the bug of FFBclip and should be fine. FFBClip will reduce the per-car-gain accordingly. Probably to very low values though.

Btw not sure why you need this with a 12 Nm wheelbase.
Using FFBClip will lead to almost identical ffb strength for ALL cars.
But you buy a strong wheelbase to have the difference between a modern streetcar vs a 70's F1 with massive steering forces.

Kunos and good modders take this into consideration so if you set the gain to 50% in the menu and 100% for all cars, every car will have a different ffb strength.

Just uninstall FFBClip, set the gain to 40% (should be strong enough with 12 Nm) and finetune the cars to your liking manually. Everything between 20-70% is fine without too much clipping anyway, so just do whatever you like.
in TM profile Sport setting , 100% force and 0% damping.
0% damping is pretty violent tbh. Other people saying they'd need 40-60% damping in the TM control panel to stop the wheel from going crazy on the straights...
Damper gain: 100%
Minimum damper: 0
Damper gain:100% is ONLY the standing still rubber effect in AC and ACC.
This is the "effect" that gets sent through the damper-ffb-channel. The T818 has no slider for this.

The Minimum damper is similar to the "damping" setting of the wheelbase. It also uses the damper-ffb-channel but is normally off.
It simply slows down the wheel at all times, similar to the wheelbase damping or "Natural Damping" you can find on Simucube and Fanatec DDs.
Additional postprocessing: range 200%
This effect sits BEHIND the clipping meter and INCREASES the ffb gain a LOT at 200%.
So what you're currently doing:
0% damper while driving
12 Nm full strength of the wheelbase
FFB clip adjusting the gain to mild clipping
Then amplifying the ffb a LOT

-> wondering about an oscillating wheel.

My advice would be to put the range compression from CSP FFB Tweaks to 100% and put the "Damping" in the Thrustmaster panel to 30%.

OR uninstall FFBClip, set the gain to 30-40% and keep the range compression at 200%, since it feels nice.
Then in AC I have the FFBclip window open, since I want to decide the amount of nm per car. Some cars are perfect at 10nm but others are just way to tiring at 10 and I set those at 8nm.
You're not adjusting the Nm per car. You're changing the average ffb gain, while the PEAK ffb will always be 100%.
So while the ffb strength while doing a normal corner will change, hitting at tree at 300 kph will always clip and reach 100% gain and sent 12 Nm to your hands.

If you actually want to reduce the maximum force to your hands, reduce the strength in the Thrustmaster panel.
The Clipping meter sits after the per-car-gain.
menu gain -> per-car-gain -> clipping meter -> range compression or LUT -> TM driver -> hands.

It's the same for ALL ffb wheels on the market.

I call this "Nominal Torque" vs "Peak Torque".
50% menu + 80% in-car + 100% TM panel = 0.5*0.8*1.0 = 0.4 = 40% nominal torque, 100% or 12 Nm peak torque

80% menu + 50% in-car + 100% TM panel = 0.8*0.5*1.0 = 40% nominal torque, 100% peak torque

80% menu + 100% in-car + 50% TM panel = 0.8*1.0*0.5 = 40% nominal torque but only 50% peak torque (and probably some clipping).

At 25% it just gives way too much oscillation so I set it at 10% which makes it a bitter better to control.
Can't reduce the overall gain since ffbclip only works correctly at 100% gain.
Except that gain slider accordingly to mod creator has no effect whatsoever. :roflmao:
As Andrew said, if you're using a CSP version newer than 0.1.53, the slider is dead and all differences you felt are either a different ffb gain setting (different car, different track, FFBClip changing something) or full on placebo :p
 
Except that gain slider accordingly to mod creator has no effect whatsoever. :roflmao:
Well - when I set the gain to 60% I had a couple of times that I lost the ffb completely during a race. Clicking Dynamic mode on and off again brought back the ffb.
Then I read somewhere that ffbgain only works with 100% gain and since I set it to that - I never lost ffb again so far.
 
As Andrew said, if you're using a CSP version newer than 0.1.53, the slider is dead and all differences you felt are either a different ffb gain setting (different car, different track, FFBClip changing something) or full on placebo :p
That was an amazing insightfull reply. Thank you, back to tweaking with all this new knowlegde :)
 
  • Deleted member 197115

I didn't get this part, where is this menu exactly? In cps? I checked and googled but couldn't find this or info about it..
Global (Main) gain in CM Controller settings.
Global Gain x Per Car Gain = Total Gain.

And just to clarify, no effect gain slider is in new Gyro settings, wasn't sure you got this part.
 
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@RasmusP

I just bought a Logitech DD GPRO wheel which has 11Nm of Peak torque and have been fiddling with both Wheel drivers and AC ControlManager FFB setting but not completely there yet
this part of your post is a good insight, the chance with my wheel is that it has ON DISPLAY Live torque so this in addition to the FFB clipping widget from AC will help me I think
thanks again for sharing


It's the same for ALL ffb wheels on the market.

I call this "Nominal Torque" vs "Peak Torque".
50% menu + 80% in-car + 100% TM panel = 0.5*0.8*1.0 = 0.4 = 40% nominal torque, 100% or 12 Nm peak torque

80% menu + 50% in-car + 100% TM panel = 0.8*0.5*1.0 = 40% nominal torque, 100% peak torque

80% menu + 100% in-car + 50% TM panel = 0.8*1.0*0.5 = 40% nominal torque but only 50% peak torque (and probably some clipping).

PS I had been using Gyro effect in AC for years (25%), even before ControlManager had it implemented, on both Gear and belt driven wheels and it was quite noticeable.
I guess this is a thing from the past now
 
I am struggling with the open wheelers cars like the Ferrari F2004 and the Tautus now with the DD wheel.
Specifically low speed corners where suspension bouncing like crazy and really high vibration in the wheel base being transmitted to my 3060 DIY rig in a very unpleasant way.
I have tried many adjustment of FFB parameters in CM or the wheel itself but its still painful
the only relative improvement would be to untick this in CM but then I would lose the ability to drive with wet tires in the rain which is a pity
1673784709811.png

I can not remember having such issue with my TSPC racer wheel, and other cars I have driven so far dont exhibit such bad behaviour

this is how FFB tweaks parameters look like in CM, basically I haven't touched anything from when I was using my belt driven wheel so that's maybe the problem here

any advice appreciated
 

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I am struggling with the open wheelers cars like the Ferrari F2004 and the Tautus now with the DD wheel.
Specifically low speed corners where suspension bouncing like crazy and really high vibration in the wheel base being transmitted to my 3060 DIY rig in a very unpleasant way.
I have tried many adjustment of FFB parameters in CM or the wheel itself but its still painful
the only relative improvement would be to untick this in CM but then I would lose the ability to drive with wet tires in the rain which is a pity
View attachment 631470
I can not remember having such issue with my TSPC racer wheel, and other cars I have driven so far dont exhibit such bad behaviour

this is how FFB tweaks parameters look like in CM, basically I haven't touched anything from when I was using my belt driven wheel so that's maybe the problem here

any advice appreciated
Unrelated to FFB, fixed in newest version of CSP
 
sorry guys,I am going to sound like a noob but you got me a bit lost here.

So say if I run AC from Steam, the FFB feels good because, I assume, there is no CM putting the extra physics "overlay" on the FFB get from the wheel in this scenario

Now the same result would be if launch the Game from CM and untick the "Use extended physics(experimental)" from the Drive menu correct?

as per the FFB Tweaks tab in CM, what is the consensus for a DD with around 10Nm of torque like my Logitech one?

anyone owning say T818, Simagic Mini or Moza R9 could post his settings here?

thanks a lot

Oli
 
sorry guys,I am going to sound like a noob but you got me a bit lost here.

So say if I run AC from Steam, the FFB feels good because, I assume, there is no CM putting the extra physics "overlay" on the FFB get from the wheel in this scenario

Now the same result would be if launch the Game from CM and untick the "Use extended physics(experimental)" from the Drive menu correct?

as per the FFB Tweaks tab in CM, what is the consensus for a DD with around 10Nm of torque like my Logitech one?

anyone owning say T818, Simagic Mini or Moza R9 could post his settings here?

thanks a lot

Oli

Hi Oli, T818 here, these are my settings. I do not use FFBTweaks anymore.
The only thing I adjust in the game is the strength per car, if necessary.

ac1.jpg

ac2.jpg
 
@Warrie2
Thanks so much for your feedback
I saw your posts above mine indeed
Now looking at your 2nd screenshot I see that you still have FFB tweaks active in CM

Is that the correct understanding that any parameters effect is actually not applying in Game as soon as the extended physics experimental is untucked in the Drive tab of CM?
 
  • Deleted member 197115

@Warrie2
Thanks so much for your feedback
I saw your posts above mine indeed
Now looking at your 2nd screenshot I see that you still have FFB tweaks active in CM

Is that the correct understanding that any parameters effect is actually not applying in Game as soon as the extended physics experimental is untucked in the Drive tab of CM?
I believe those are independent.
 
Is that the correct understanding that any parameters effect is actually not applying in Game as soon as the extended physics experimental is untucked in the Drive tab of CM?
No, as Andrew says: independent.
So say if I run AC from Steam, the FFB feels good because, I assume, there is no CM putting the extra physics "overlay" on the FFB get from the wheel in this scenario
That's correct!
Now the same result would be if launch the Game from CM and untick the "Use extended physics(experimental)" from the Drive menu correct?
Yes, also correct!

CSP is still applied without CM. It "hacks" into the game at session startup. When actually clicking on okay.
I tested this to make a csp package for someone who doesn't want to use CM ( old guy, using AC since launch without CM).

But apparently the extended physics do need CM to actually change data on the fly.


What was the confusion part is that the "issues" where within the extended physics version you used.
Not in the csp ffb tweaks!
 
Generally speaking, should 'Use Extended Physics' be enabled in CM or can we simply rely on it turning on automatically when a car that leverages it has 'extended-2' in the car.ini? If it turns out it should be generally enabled, is there any case where you'd advise against it?
 
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Generally speaking, should 'Use Extended Physics' be enabled in CM or can we simply rely on it turning on automatically when a car that leverages it has 'extended-2' in the car.ini? If it turns out it should be generally enabled, is there any case where you'd advise against it?
If you only care about cars meant to use it (ie ones that include extended-), then you don’t need to check the box. If you want to force it on (eg for rain to work), it’s needed. Eventually it’ll be forced on by default.
 
I've worked with x4fab to add a new feature to the Custom Shaders Patch (as of 0.1.51) and the description is fairly brief so I thought it's worth going into a bit more detail about what this does.

7hNkrdT.png


Gyro Implementation

[ ] Active check to enable
Strength 25% adjust effect strength
AC has an "Experimental Gyro" FFB effect whose purpose was adding gyroscopic effects to the steering. It never lost the experimental tag and all it's generally recommended for is damping down oscillations on direct drive wheels.
This is that, developed slightly further based on my understanding of the nature of gyroscopic forces. I have a pretty solid case for making this change, and I believe this force exists in actual cars, and AC's original experimental gyro does not.

The developed version still suits the purpose of damping oscillations, but more importantly it decouples the body from the front wheels - so if the front wheels are pointing in a direction and the body moves around them, no gyroscopic precession happens, and no force is generated. Concretely, what we're talking about here is oversteer - on the original experimental gyro, the force acts counter to self-alignment during oversteer. With this new implementation, self-alignment is allowed to occur freely, or, if the oversteer is so quick that the wheels can't self-align, it'll actually push in the direction of alignment.

25% is simply equivalent to the original force multiplier used on experimental gyro when merging it with other FFB forces. Ultimately, the same as the other amplification ffb effects like road and slip effect, the slider is available to magnify it if your hardware's limitations are obscuring the effect.
As of CSP 0.1.53 the strength slider is outdated. A calculation using the suspension geometry now provides the right precession-based force for each car.
The description is a little bit misleading; this replaces "Experimental Gyro" so disabling it is superfluous, if this is Active, experimental gyro is not. Still, it won't hurt to disable experimental gyro and be certain it's off.

Now that I've said what the intent is, I will also note the following: this changes FFB in pretty much every dynamic situation. It's not just an improvement for drift cars or for vintage cars that oversteer constantly; any time the car moves around on the tires it feels slightly different from before. To me, it's a positive change, it's clearer what the car is doing, and I have heard similarly positive comments from testers. Nonetheless, I am not omniscient, I have not driven all these cars in real life, it's up to you to decide whether it improves your game or gives you better sim feeling the rubber or what. Modifying games to improve the FFB is a fine tradition starting with some extremely thorough efforts in rfactor1, and this is no different (maybe a bit easier to install).

I will note that it slightly increases max forces when cornering so if you have stuff set up to barely clip, you'll need an adjustment downward in global ffb mult.

Range Compression

Range compression 100% - 100% is the "default off" of this effect
[ ] Range compression assist - check to convert cars' "steer assist" into range compression.

New FFB Tweak available as of 0.1.53. The name comes from the audio world, where dynamic range compression means bringing up the quiet sounds while leaving loud sounds at their original volume. This is a much more second derivative friendly version of the Gamma effect.

The percentage is straightforward: Set it to how much you want to multiply small forces. Or adjust it in sync with your overall gain if you want to maintain the level of small forces and change large forces. For example, 200% compression + 50% gain = original 100% on small forces, larger forces decrease. If you're curious, the curve at the point of maximum force is simply the inverse, 200% compression will cause large forces 50% of the original delta in force. But in combination with 50% gain, you're moving the original maximum force downward and the ceiling before the game clips is much higher.

Think of this like power steering: you only want it to assist the heavy forces and give you maximum feel of the light forces.

This is very much an "adjust to taste" thing, it operates smoothly enough that you're safe running it upward of 300%, and I have seen IRL data indicating that manufacturers effectively go as high as 600% in power steering systems, when they want to bring 20+N forces down to a comfortable 2-3N.

Steer assist is a built in per-car feature of AC that applies a gamma function to that car's FFB. If you check Range compression assist, then FFB Tweaks will calculate an appropriate range compression adjustment, and disable steer assist. This should give you a far more normal FFB feeling (no weird bumps around center) while retaining the original goal of giving high downforce cars enough low-speed FFB to be drivable.
Is this related to steering assist settings? Do changes in steering assist impacting FFB forces of these settings? If so, what do you recommend for cars like the RSS hybrid cars like F1 19 to 21?
It's a very interesting project, and sure very demanding. Thanks a lot for sharing with us!
 
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