PC1 Latest Build testing.

[Andy_J]

As you all know, Ian gave me a free pass to test the latest builds and that's what I have been doing for the last week. I will report here as and when I see fit to tell all about my findings.

But I will say that the latest build (296) is quite good. Now lets make some sense of my statement. I used a Lotus 98T in helmet cam using my antique MOMO red wheel and I can honestly report it is coming along much better than I anticipated. The actual feel and immersion is damn fine at this point. The handling is strange at first compared to say...RF2 and FVA, but it grows on you within minutes. At this point in time, this actual car feels good. I like it and I love the Milan circuit. The damage model has come on leaps and bounds.

I am doing some more testing all of next week using a G27 and I will also test some of the other cars that don't interest me as much (I am a F1 nut) and see how the feel in comparison to Shift 2, because that is what I was initially comparing PCars to.

I would like the replay function to have a directors mode though. Something that jumps from action to action and from car to car.

Aside from that, the replay's do crash my PC quite often but I understand that is being looked at.

Watch this space.

 

[Chronus]

@Kazumi,
Really?

So, then, enlighten me.

David referred the "center pivot physics". He asked, in regards to it, "but could a NTM remove what seems to be a persistent factor in every car?" The "persistent factor" was/is the CPPP issue.

To that question, I answered "No".

To that question, you answered "It could."

We can take (almost) your full statement: "It could, [...], if they are not worse or worse implemented then what they had 2 years ago."

I don't see how we are not discussing the same issue. To his question, we gave 2 differing views.

No problem in disagreeing here, it is good to be clear on this though.

Maybe the difference lies in what people mean by "center pivot physics": the feel of it, or that it actually is based on CPPP. Two different things.

With ISIMotor2 we can sort of mimic this CPPP feel and we can dial it out. But if ISIMotor2 really had CPPP, no one could dial it out unless the physics engine was re-written.

Hence my example about TOCA3, with acknowledged CPPP, and yet 4 contact patches were added to it (with a basic tire model).

 

[Chronus]

If they can remove any issue with the assets from 2 years ago, it automatically means they could remove any issues with newer assets in theory.

Not really much more I tried to say there!?

I am curious, though: do you think there was a "cppp" issue with Shift 1 or Shift 2?

 

[David Ignjatovic]

My opinion, for sure, but one last time: from the technical point of view, all things considered (all the feedback, issues, explanations, technical details unveiled) pCARS being based on CPPP doesn't make any sense.

If you remember I used to refer to pcars as feeling like a digital marshmellow/sponge, implying it felt stuck to the road, and then Adrian produced a series of diagrams and clearly outlined that what we're feeling was a CPPP model vs 4 contact patch model.

They just released 3 patches, and it's worse than it's been for a while, and it's just not making sense to me why the builds keep fluctuating each time......either way, I see no reason why they won't punch this into worthy simcade shape, but I'm surprised how long it's taking to get a stable simcade model.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

But I payed for a full game.
First they locked content for juniors, now members and full members.
Next they lock Seniors.

You get all content at release, but they're trying to tempt us to upgrade our toolpacks.
MP lock outs are based on technical issues, and should trickle down as coding is improved.

 

[Chronus]

If you remember I used to refer to pcars as feeling like a digital marshmellow/sponge, implying it felt stuck to the road, and then Adrian produced a series of diagrams and clearly outlined that what we're feeling was a CPPP model vs 4 contact patch model.

They just released 3 patches, and it's worse than it's been for a while, and it's just not making sense to me why the builds keep fluctuating each time......either way, I see no reason why they won't punch this into worthy simcade shape, but I'm surprised how long it's taking to get a stable simcade model.

I remember that.

I can't say, really. Maybe you guys are right, it is just hard for me to accept a modern
day racing sim of the last 6 years having that kind of physics - even more considering the knowledge and experience of the team behind the sim.

I do recall, though, that there is a known issue with what some call "air-time" and the loss/gain of momentum due to that.

 

[Kazumi]

@Kazumi,
Really?

So, then, enlighten me.

David referred the "center pivot physics". He asked, in regards to it, "but could a NTM remove what seems to be a persistent factor in every car?" The "persistent factor" was/is the CPPP issue.

To that question, I answered "No".

To that question, you answered "It could."

We can take (almost) your full statement: "It could, [...], if they are not worse or worse implemented then what they had 2 years ago."

I don't see how we are not discussing the same issue. To his question, we gave 2 differing views.

No problem in disagreeing here, it is good to be clear on this though.

Maybe the difference lies in what people mean by "center pivot physics": the feel of it, or that it actually is based on CPPP. Two different things.

With ISIMotor2 we can sort of mimic this CPPP feel and we can dial it out. But if ISIMotor2 really had CPPP, no one could dial it out unless the physics engine was re-written.

Hence my example about TOCA3, with acknowledged CPPP, and yet 4 contact patches were added to it (with a basic tire model).

I see. Thanks for correcting me. I was under the impression there are / will be more changes then just the tire model ("NTM") but I see you're not referring to them. As you said tire can't change things in other physics, in a way it's the last part of a chain. Errors in chassis or global forces and no tire will perform like it should.

I am curious, though: do you think there was a "cppp" issue with Shift 1 or Shift 2?

Well, they are using ISI assets, some of Eero's physics assets and PhysX middleware for collision, so of course there's nothing that can cause that. But there are other issues caused by wrong chassis, suspension and tire data, and some bugs, which can lead to an unsatifying driving feel from a simulation point of view.

Of course the performance / speed itself is also a bit "flavored" by design to make it enjoyable for everyone (as also stated by the devs in 2009, the year of Shift 1 release)

 

[Chronus]

As you said tire can't change things in other physics, in a way it's the last part of a chain. Errors in chassis or global forces and no tire will perform like it should.

That's my take on it too. You can have the best tire model, the best tire calibration, and all goes down the toilette due to other car issues.

Well, they are using ISI assets, some of Eero's physics assets and PhysX middleware for collision, so of course there's nothing that can cause that. But there are other issues caused by wrong chassis, suspension and tire data, and some bugs, which can lead to an unsatifying driving feel from a simulation point of view.

Of course the performance / speed itself is also a bit "flavored" by design to make it enjoyable for everyone (as also stated by the devs in 2009, the year of Shift 1 release)

That has always puzzled me. EA pushed their agenda and some things never got improved or were big compromises because of them. But on top of it, glaring calibration mistakes by the car designers.

Also this "flavouring" thing with the cars and also the tracks...A pity, Shift 2 could have made a much bigger impact than it did.

 

[Flawl3ssVctry]

There's something Ian mentioned outside of the of the tyre discussions called "new vehicle dynamics"

I think that will be a separate initiative from STM and will perhaps alleviate the issues you describe (lack of inertia, chassis response etc.)

Agree, if EA had (presumably) allowed SMS to just focus on the basics and less on the sugar&spice, they could have sold many more copies and retained some of their reputation.

 

[Chronus]

New vehicle dynamics will certainly improve vehicle behaviour (beyond what I experienced months ago), with or without the STM. Shift 2's vehicle dynamics, however, felt OK - disregarding the calibration errors S2U's modders found.

Btw, lack of inertia and chassis responsiveness are items that can surface with any physics engine - even ISIMotor2. All it takes is input wrong figures for inertias and suspensions. Correcting these, any car comes alive nicely.

 

[traind]

What does everyone think of the STM released yesterday for the FA in pCARS? Although the implementation is very limited at the moment... I think it feels like it will turn out to be a significant improvement when done.

In the limited driving I did with the new build, I still don't feel a lot of weight transfer in the suspension though. From what I read in this thread it seems like the chances for pCARS using an old center pivot design is very limited. So what else causes the lack of feel/dynamics of weight transfer within the suspension?

 

[Chronus]

From what AJ is able to tell us (not much, but at this stage I wouldn't do it differently, some protection is needed), the model should be an improvement - just not in the way people think (which derives from not knowing what tire models are), though. I'd advise anyone to go through any post by AJ and read it carefully. There's a lot to read through and understand.

Lack of feel and the dynamics of weight transfer:

AJ recently posted the "way forward", the next steps in regards to his STM. We can be sure the STM will be improved, corrected, tweaked. He still has a lot of time.

It was mentioned above a new "vehicle dynamics" will come up at some point. Until then, Doug and his team will certainly improve the physics calibration per car. This process takes time, and often (barring some bug or error in the current vehicle dynamics) it is all a matter of feeding the proper figures.

 

[Peter]

What does everyone think of the STM released yesterday for the FA in pCARS? Although the implementation is very limited at the moment... I think it feels like it will turn out to be a significant improvement when done.

In the limited driving I did with the new build, I still don't feel a lot of weight transfer in the suspension though. From what I read in this thread it seems like the chances for pCARS using an old center pivot design is very limited. So what else causes the lack of feel/dynamics of weight transfer within the suspension?

The wheel movement is more natural now, but the new -seta works only with the FA, it has 4 front tyres ( all the cars have FA front tyres) and still the old FFB.
The direction is good but far from perfect.

If some one tells you it's great now, no it isn't.

 

[KAMPFBIBER81]

The -seta command works on all cars but it simulates F1 front tires. So it doesn't really make sense to test that on a caterham, but it does work.

The "old" FFB system is acutally the new one. The new FFB system is driven from the tire model and some more parameters that can be mixed in. You can tweak the FFB to your likings wit XML files.

 

[Stefan Mizzi]

I got the latest build yesterday and fired up pCars with -Seta. Have to say it's a huge improvement on the physics and FFB, I could feel the bumps on the road, loosing the car and getting it back and much much better feeling all in all. And this will surely be improved.

I had fun racing (after tuning the AI!) and looking forward as I think it's gonna be great.

Cheers

 

[ONT]

Did some testing with the new "SETA" model.

Feels like a step in the right direction.


All cars need an adjustment in the in game F1 menu, under Vehicle, FFB, multiplier.

The multiplier need to be set to about 1/2 the value of default (for old brush model)

to not get severe "clipping" in FFB.

Use the FFB telemetry screen to set optimal value.


From my understanding we are driving all cars on the FA (F1) tires,

and no flex in tire is implemented yet.


So for a solid F1 style tire it's interesting, if You hit a high curb some violent

behavior is to be expected


A by product of "solid SETA tires" is some cars are extremely loose

other feel ok (the stock car, road version is really loose and the oval version is not).



I like the feel of the BAC Mono, others hate it.

The 2 Lotus with slicks feel good.


Add some flex to the tire, and fix the default FFB settings for no "clipping" and

I think we got a big improvement.

 

[Terry Rock]

I just did a lap and was pleasantly surprised by the BMW Z4's handling after today's update. That car at least, now seems to have some of the mass I've been complaining about for a while. The chassis wasn't qscillating all over the place like it had no weight. I'm very happy about that. It gives me hope that the rest of the cars can be corrected. I have not tried the remainder as of yet.
Lets hope SMS can now fix the brakes, which are woefully inadequate and not indicative of ceramic brakes.

 

[Andy_J]

I'm still evaluating the very latest build. I just can't seem to put my finger on why the handling seems .........strange. Working on it.

 

[Nathan Robinson]

Todays build sees the new tire model being the default. No need to use the -seta command now to get it. I was a bit disappointed with pcars over the weekend, but todays build has turned me back around again. Tested the L4 and the Formula A and I'm pretty impressed. I guess i'll continue to be patient with my impressions because I was cussing SMS out 3 days ago and now I cant put it down lol.

 

[Andrew Hayes]

just played some multi player races ! blown away apart from the players that like to spoil the beginning of the race and then disconnect

I’m new to sim racing but i have to say I’m beginning to getting hooked

 

[Flawl3ssVctry]

Todays build sees the new tire model being the default. No need to use the -seta command now to get it. I was a bit disappointed with pcars over the weekend, but todays build has turned me back around again. Tested the L4 and the Formula A and I'm pretty impressed. I guess i'll continue to be patient with my impressions because I was cussing SMS out 3 days ago and now I cant put it down lol.

on the other hand I don't like it now. I'll see you in the middle I guess

Agree MP is wild right now, they'll add some rules and support later. Try to find some friends