Isolation for rig on wheels in apartment block inc tactile feedback

[super kermit]

Hi All

My rig is on wheels (and has to stay on wheels) and I also need to be nice to my neighbors.

Rig is on a tiled concrete floor, though I can put an ikea rug down as an option over rubber matts?

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I have a buttkicker mini LFE on the pedal deck and one on the seat. (2 x mini LFE)

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I am thinking of using these to isolate the seat and pedals from the rig

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to isolate the seat and the pedal deck from the frame and now considering the below to provide some immersion but also not annoy the neighbors.

Elite SRS ShakeCombo (includes SRS License for Bass Shaker) | simracingstudio

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Any feedback would be great, I went down the hole of more transducers then thought of my neighbors.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I saw that, not so sure about pretty solid horizonatally part with that sandwiched spring. Afraid some flex in isolators is inevitable due to the nature of the function.

The proof is that there are people using them on full motion rigs to support their seat and entire pedal deck. If the braking force and motion doesn't cause issues, I can't imagine any issues for a static system.

Then again, I'm looking to find out first hand. so eventually, I'll be able to add my 2 cents on this.

 

[blekenbleu]

seat isolation with no flex

Have you considered cantilevered shakers?

Yes, those are what I meant by seat rails. Something like the existing board
may still be wanted to tie those left and right rails together for horizontal stability.
Mounting shakers outside cockpit rails on cantilevers more or less balance the weight of driver and seat inside cockpit rails,
provided that the elastomer isolators on which cantilevers pivot are nearer to seat rails than shakers.
View attachment 496979

Because seat rails would no longer be vertically constrained by cockpit rails immediately beneath,
the seat (and you) would be able to absorb more vertical tactile energy.


I do not see isolators, unless they are below extrusions and corner brackets.
I would have expected something thicker, between extrusions and the board.

For use as pivots, isolators something like this:

from McMaster-Carr

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I already had them "cantilevered", may be I shouldn't even bother with isolators as seems like they are not really helping that much but add some flex. But it's not that big of a deal to be honest, not even noticeable when driving.

 

[Atak_Kat]

Just an idea. Assuming you have a alum.profile frame of some sort.
What about just mounting a piece of 40/40 behind the seat mounts, so that it blocks the seat from moving or flexing back? Just attached to the base/frame and essentially touching the seat brackets at the back, but not connected to the seat brackets.
Hard to explain, but if the isolators are between the frame and the seat mount, I guess some sort of fence or block behind it would stop it form flexing back? I guess even a couple of corner brackets might achieve the same thing?

 

[blekenbleu]

Currently using these,

Supposing that your isolators' axial axis is vertical:

.. and installed shakers generate mostly vertical energy,
then isolation is probably suboptimal, with most compliance being lateral.
Meanwhile, this design should have less lateral compliance:

.. with vertical compliance somewhat tunable
according to how hard through bolts are tightened.
However, associated cantilever plates or flanges are key factors.
These will horizontally offset vertical energy transmitted e.g. from the seat
relative to vertical energy transmitted to the rig chassis at through bolts,
resulting in plates acting somewhat as leaf springs.
Further, if a separate plate supports the seat front,
and a rear plate has shakers mounted outboard of isolators,
with rear seat mounts inboard of rear isolators
(which would then effectively act as compliant pivots), then
lateral compliance and vertical tactile energy loss should both be reduced.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

@Atak_Kat, thanks for the idea, the flex is not that big to be honest, yes it's not as rigid as bolted directly to profile, but really not something that requires anything that drastic to anchor seat in place.

@blekenbleu, what is sandwiched between these two rubber isolators, the link to the product points only to rubber bushing. I think as isolators for cantilever plates it's not ideal as it will just absorb the energy from transducers instead of transferring it to the seat, but it might work for seat mount.

I am just surprised that after so many years we still don't have something practical and robust for what seems like a simple problem, only some ideas and overly complex solutions, mostly based on guesswork, floating around.

 

[blekenbleu]

isolators for cantilever plates it's not ideal as it will just absorb the energy from transducers

It worked for @mgh24:

End result was a much more efficient transfer of vibration to the seat. Ended up turning Road Impacts volume down from 60% to 30%. and may need to go lower still!

 

[blekenbleu]

only some ideas and overly complex solutions, mostly based on guesswork

FWIW, a "career" in applied R&D involved much test data for convincing management
to develop for production. With interns rarely available or willing, robots were often required,
with considerable noise and vibration mitigation to minimize annoying workers in adjacent offices.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

It worked for @mgh24:

I took a closer look at the implementation and cantilever is hard bolted to seat mount without isolator, so what I said does not apply. The seat itself sits on cantilevers bolted to 80/20 with bolts with rubber bushing on both ends.
It's interesting, wouldn't that bolt act as transmitter of the vibration to the chassis?
And if not, would it be more beneficial for isolation and rigidity just to use regular bolt with rubber bushing to bolt the seat to chassis instead of those flexy rubber cores that are usually recommended. Still think it will not be as efficient at dampening as proper isolator.
BTW, in my case cantilevers are bolted to the bottom of the seat, not chassis.

 

[blekenbleu]

wouldn't that bolt act as transmitter of the vibration to the chassis?

The bushing bolt will of course transmit any energy into the extrusion
that is coupled thru the elastomer bushing pair from the plate.
Since the seat is free to respond to vertical energy transmitted thru the cantilever plate,
much of the energy transmitted to the bolt thru the bushing will be from cantilever rocking.

And if not, would it be more beneficial for isolation and rigidity just to use regular bolt with rubber bushing to bolt the seat to chassis

Not sure what you are asking. but with this kind of bushing,
using that bolt thru the bushing to also secure the seat would eliminate isolation
and mostly prevent the outboard shaker from transferring vertical motion to the seat.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Not sure what you are asking. but with this kind of bushing,
using that bolt thru the bushing to also secure the seat would eliminate isolation
and mostly prevent the outboard shaker from transferring vertical motion to the seat.

To replace rubber bobbin like below with go through bolt with your rubber bushing in between seat mount and rail. Not sure how isolation will be affected but it will be slightly more rigid with still some lateral flex I am afraid.

 

[JohnBeardmore]

Horizontally mounted bobbins on my pedal deck to prevent horizontal displacement under braking. I have space to add more if required.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

View attachment 504322
Horizontally mounted bobbins on my pedal deck to prevent horizontal displacement under braking. I have space to add more if required.

Creative, any reason vertical isolators are so tall, shorter one have much less lateral flex, you probably wouldn't even needed extra support.

 

[blekenbleu]

any reason vertical isolators are so tall

This sort of isolator most often has more radial than axial compliance.
Shorter elastomers will have spring rates too high for much axial compression,
resulting in more vertical energy transfer unless into a very massive base.

Some isolators of this sort are designed for significant radial loads
e.g. when mounted with horizontal axes, as by @JohnBeardmore.

If you want to avoid cantilevering and keep seat brackets directly over extrusions,
then Platemounts offer better vertical (axial) isolation with lateral control:

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Can't figure out how exactly that would work for seat to extrusion installation. Have you or anyone else used them?

 

[JohnBeardmore]

I forgot to mention the horizontal ones are waisted.

 

[blekenbleu]

Can't figure out how exactly that would work for seat to extrusion installation.

Three possibilities:

1. spacers under flange holes for 2 bolts into extrusion T-nuts with center bolt into seat bracket
2. cut 1.00 diameter holes into extrusions for elastomer cups
3. invert platemounts and similarly cut reliefs into seat brackets for elastomer cups
   with center bolt into extrusion T-nut.

Have you or anyone else used them?

Not I; my tactile effects use only 4 pucks in a seat pad
with exciters on brake pedal and laterally on harness tensioner frame.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Three possibilities:

1. spacers under flange holes for 2 bolts into extrusion T-nuts with center bolt into seat bracket
2. cut 1.00 diameter holes into extrusions for elastomer cups
3. invert platemounts and similarly cut reliefs into seat brackets for elastomer cups
   with center bolt into extrusion T-nut.

4. mount wooden or aluminum plate or bar to seat risers, cut the holes for the isolation mounts into these.
Bolt through mounts into profile

Though I´m not convinced that the mounts you linked will be stiff enough to not "sag" a lot under the the applied loads of seat and driver. Even the mounts rated 90 pounds could be a little soft for me ( big guy, ( (ok, fat guy)) and high brakeforces)

so:

5. fabricate side mounting plates for the seat with holes for the isolation mounts and bolt it to the profiles ( or corner brackets) horizontally. That way the mount will be loaded radially which should be way more stable than axially.
That should also take the cantilevering forces of braking better which in my case load the front mounts of my seat pulling up and the rear mounts pushing down.

MFG Carsten

 

[blekenbleu]

bolt it to the profiles ( or corner brackets) horizontally

These isolators are designed for axial compliance;
if tactile isolation is the priority, then nearly vertical axial alignment is wanted.

6. To counter off-horizontal braking forces, tilting axial alignments forward would help.
Cut holes for elastomer cups in e.g. hefty aluminum angle stock
and bolt those to extrusion sides with bolt hole alignments suitably off horizontal.

 

[Atak_Kat]

A while ago I was considering a way to mount these 'sideways' (sorry for lack of technical jargon), but never had a chance to try. My two ideas were simple:
1. put them just between the seat and the seat mount (where the bracket connects to the seat, not where it connects to the frame). In my case is a Sparco seat with the M8 holes on the sides. Since my BK is directly mounted to the seat, I figured this would be the first spot where vibration may travel out of the seat. And any 'radial' load on the mounts (if I understand correctly) would be limited just to the driver and seat itself (ie. none of the frame or other stuff underneath).
2. On many 8020 builds, there are two 40/40 pieces that the seat sliders or mounts connect to (mine run in the direction of back-to-front.) I think many people put these small vibration mounts between the 40/40 piece and the seat slider. My idea instead was to put them on the ends of those 40/40 pieces. So tapping the end of the 40/40 piece so the vibration mount just screws in there (there would be one on each end of the 2x 404/0 pieces). Then, mounting to the frame sections (in my case, it would have required me to move the centre piece of the frame a bit further forward to allow the 40/40 pieces with the vibration mounts to fit.

I didn't do it yet simply because I didn't find the time. But I assume those are not unique ideas. I never really researched it, but I assume others have thought of, or tried, something similar?