Is VR dead?

[RCHeliguy]

@Bjarne Hansen,
Oculus is going after the masses. What they are doing makes complete sense and you should like what they are doing because they are the only company out there that has actually achieved decent inside out tracking which you want. They are the ones that you should be counting on to give you something inexpensive without base stations going forward. Unless MS decides to move WMR forward it is essentially an orphaned platform leaving Oculus as the top dog using inside out tracking.

The downside to inside out tracking is that every headset manufacturer has to figure it out for themselves. This is why a pile of manufacturers jumped into the WMR space. MS already figured it out for them such as it was. See how HTC bombed using the inside out tracking and they were once a big dog in this space. They couldn't or didn't pull it off.

What Valve is doing makes complete sense too. They are going after the enthusiast market which is a no compromises approach. Base station tracking is the absolute state of the art in terms of performance. 0.1mm accuracy with 7ms latency. No other system comes close! Don't expect that to change. Going forward, there will continue to be headsets from Valve, Pimax, HTC and others using Base stations because they are the best AND because the tracking isn't in the headset, these other VR headset manufacturers can leverage Valve controllers and base stations and not have to invent their own tracking system. This will allow more innovation to occur.

Also keep in mind that the base stations and hand controllers are basically a one time charge. So half of what I spent on my Index system will likely be with me for many years. I love the hand controllers and tracking. Now if I want to, I can replace just the headset in the future. So if Valve comes out with another $500 headset with more resolution and wider field of view, I can get that. Or I can get a Pimax, or whatever else comes out. If at some point they release something that is even better than the current hand controllers, I can decide if want them at a later date, but it won't keep me from upgrading just my headset.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Didn't know we have that many sim racers.

Exactly!

This is why you should care even more about everyone else getting into VR to drive innovation and drive prices lower.

Think about Bjarne only wanting inside out tracking. There is a lot of effort involved to make inside out tracking work well. The fact that Oculus is the only company to successfully pull off decent inside out tracking should say it all. Oculus has huge financial backing. The only reason they pushed inside out tracking like they did was to make a stand alone device, the Quest. They banked on selling the Quest in massive numbers and so far it appears that gamble has paid off. The Rift S seems more like trickle down from that effort but it's selling well too.

The underlying issue is that both you and Bjarne could care less about hand controllers, but that makes you a very small niche inside the small VR community. In order for inside out to take off controller tracking has to work very well and there has to be a large enough market for companies to invest the time to make inside out tracking work very well. Right now everything Oculus has done is proprietary, which means a "newcomer" to this market would need to reinvent the wheel if they want inside out tracking to work.

Valve won't be changing direction. They came out with base station tracking which the HTC Vive used and they have been producing base stations for many years now. They've improved on the design and they spent serious time and money developing their hand controllers. They've created an open ecosystem unlike any other.

So you need VR to take off in a serious way for there to be any chance of seeing competition to Oculus in the inside out market. HTC blew it. WMR is languishing. Going up against Oculus in this space in the near term will likely be hard so I don't expect to see much happening for inside out tracking for a while.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

External tracking is not the future, just old tech that works for now. There is nothing "state of the art" in it.
It's too cumbersome to setup, drives HMD price up, had issues with EMI, etc.
Head tracking with camera works perfectly already, controllers tracking (don't even know where I put them last time) with cameras is a hit or miss, even with as many as Rift S has, controllers occlusion is a real thing, predictive algorithms with controllers getting out of cameras sight work to some degree but are never too accurate.
In the article I linked on the other page there was a reference to electomagnetic field tracking used in Pico Neo2, that could be one of the possible solutions for the issue.

And when can we drop that tether and go wireless?

 

[RCHeliguy]

A few sales numbers to put things in perspective.

4th quarter 2019

Sony Playstation VR 338,000
Oculus Quest 317,000
Index 103,000
Oculus Go 84,000
Oculus Rift S 71,000

Oculus sold 472,000 VR headsets in the 4th quarter and only 15% run on a PC natively.

Try saying that Oculus made a bad decision going into the stand alone VR market. Also realize how many people are getting a taste of VR because of them.

The SteamVR graph covers PC driven VR headsets and it is great to see solid growth there, but those numbers still pale compared to Sony Playstation VR and stand alone VR systems.

 

[RCHeliguy]

It's nice that they are coming up with ways to get around the limitations of inside out tracking, but even with controllers in plane sight of the headset cameras, inside out tracking is still dramatically inferior in both accuracy and latency.

Given the top dog Oculus is still playing catchup with where the original Rift was for tracking it will be a while before anyone has a solution that is actually competitive.

It is nice to see a proof of concept that offers a solution. Maybe in a 2-3 years we will start seeing fruits of Qualcomm's labor.

 

[RCHeliguy]

BTW the Index is the best PC VR headset available in 2020 according to MRTV and here is a whole video to explain why this system is the best available today.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

"The best" is a big word. For room scale, may be.
I'd personally go for significantly higher res of Reverb, some may opt for Pimax larger FOV.
We all have different priorities not necessarily aligned with MRTV usage of VR.

 

[RCHeliguy]

"The best" is a big word. For room scale, may be.
I'd personally go for significantly higher res of Reverb, some may opt for Pimax larger FOV.
We all have different priorities not necessarily aligned with MRTV usage of VR.

He agrees with me, so he's right

Seriously though I agree that if your top priority is (resolution) a Reverb or (field of view) a Pimax or (cost) a Samsung O+ could be a better choice.

The Pimax 8K+ manages to get both Reverb and Pimax priorities in the same headset and makes enough improvements on the ergonomic front while keeping solid tracking to make it a serious contender assuming it is everything they are making it out to be. Fingers crossed.

I still don't see it as an Index replacement for me, but I think it is getting very close.

 

[Bjarne Hansen]

Oculus is going after the masses. What they are doing makes complete sense and you should like what they are doing because they are the only company out there that has actually achieved decent inside out tracking which you want. They are the ones that you should be counting on to give you something inexpensive without base stations going forward. Unless MS decides to move WMR forward it is essentially an orphaned platform leaving Oculus as the top dog using inside out tracking.

It is quite funny that it is mainly Rift S users that says that WMR got tracking issues! You rarely hear that from WMR owners at lest on reddit.

My point is that Oculus which had Lenovo designing and manufacture the Rift S are not developing VR anymore and the headsets they bring out are not affordable.
Remember when the Rift S came out the general consent was is was a substandard headset only for entry level and only if is was sold under $200.
That was pretty much every review that said that! Since the headset didn't change so I assume some $upport to youtube'ers from Facebook change those reviewers opinions fast?
Not sure if Quest was an in-house design? But likely was from before all the Oculus starters and deveoloper left.

I do like the Qculus Quest concept!
Think it is a good start despite the short comings.
Wireless VR are the way to go for most people!
Maybe not for Sim racers but for room scale games it must be a relief not to drag around on a cable

 

[Terry Rock]

Not sure why but I have not ever had a single loss of tracking on my cheap WMR Lenovo Explorer.
I actually chose it over my Rift CV1.
I like it so much in fact, that I sold the Rift and kept the $99 Lenovo.
It is used for every sim-racing title I currently own...including AC,ACC,RF2 and RRE.
No skipping and a really good 'fluid' experience...and I can read every dial on the virtual dashboard.

 

[Fat-Alfie]

Odyssey+ here, and no tracking issues for me either

 

[RCHeliguy]

Guys there are two issues involved here.

The first is like comparing a G29 to a SC2 Ultimate. A G29 will work and give inputs to drive something, but it is functional. The SC2 Ultimate has much more detail and power.

What that means is that with an Index you can aim much more accurately when everything is working properly for both.

The other issue has to do with blind spots and loss of tracking. If you are playing beat saber it doesn't really matter. If you are playing a game that involves shooting arrows or bringing your controllers near your face WMR falls down.

My son has played my Rift, Index and his O+. He purchased an Index over Christmas because of his continued frustrations with the O+ WMR tracking. He's a competitive gamer.

So while WMR may track well enough for some use, it is no where near competitive for many types of games. Once again this all depends on your priorities. For much serious room scale gaming WMR is not adequate.

I have friend from my RC Heli circles who had both a Rift and an O. He only used the O for the RC Heli sim for the increased resolution over the Rift, but he considered the O frustrating and all but useless for playing games.

Compared to the Rift S, the Index is still almost 10X more accurate when the Rift S is at its best and the Index has better latency, and no blind spots.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Head tracking vs controllers tracking.
Head tracking in WMR is almost flawless, if you set lighting right.
Controller tracking is surprisingly good as long as controllers are in line of cameras sight, when they go down or behind (archering), predictive algorithm kicks in and this is when things can get out of wack.
Wish we had a hybrid solution with inside out head tracking and optional external tracking for controllers, for those who really needs it. Was hoping Index with two cameras on headset would provide that.
Unfortunately it wasn't the case and one of the reason it's not on my list.
Looks like Cosmos is trying to get there, but on visual side neither Cosmos nor Index are a real upgrade to Odyssey+. Same resolution, and you trade gorgeous AMOLED for RGB LCD, yes, more subpixels, but not enough to warrant drop in black levels and colors reproduction. At least Reverb offers more resolution for that trade off, but fails to provide physically adjustable IPD.

 

[RobertR1]

I’d say for right now that index is the best premium experience all around.

the real bargain of the group in OD+ as it does a lot of good for a very resonable price esp when on sale.

the rest for me are use case specific.

the pimax 8kx will fall into the niche category also due to cost and the pimax ’experience’ so I don’t see anything on the horizon taking down the index as the best all arounder.

as always, I recommend people be honest with themselves about their use case and then narrow down a set of products to match.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Your reference points matter too. Last night I had a friend over who had only played VR on his brother's Vive. The first thing he said 30 seconds in was that he was surprised by how comfortable it was.

After Beat Saber and a few other titles he tried out my rig. He was surprised by how hard it was to drive fast but also how well the seat mover translated what was happening. He drove about half an hour with no discomfort and was grinning ear to ear.

 

[tony wright]

Would be interested to know if anyone has used the Vive Pro with lense mod against any of the aforementioned headsets? I went to this from my old Rift and paid the same for a used one, as it would of cost me to purchase a brand new Valve Index with one station.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Something new is coming from HP

HP Is Building A 'Next Generation' Headset For SteamVR With Microsoft & Valve

Valve, Microsoft and HP are collaborating to build a ‘next generation’ headset for SteamVR, called HP Reverb G2. The current HP Reverb is the company’s second PC VR headset, with high resolution LCD panels and a focus on comfort. It’s priced at $599. Its first was a cheaper

uploadvr.com

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Official page

HP Reverb G2 VR Headset

The ultra-light, ultra-immersive HP Reverb G2 VR (Virtual Reality) headset delivers a more immersive, comfortable, and compatible experience. Learn more here.

www8.hp.com

 

[SaXXXon]

I'll see if i can get a demoproduct from work of this HP headset.good to see they havent given up yet

 

[Jordan Dion]

Guys! try the new Half-life ALyx