Is VR dead?

[metalnwood]

In iRacing the difference between 75Hz and 90Hz was more noticeable to me, but I still run iRacing at 90Hz.

The bottom line is that this is a theoretical argument.

Usually the theoretical argument is based on knowing something happens but not being able to observe it. That is different than stating that the difference can be seen and then saying it is only theoretical.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Usually the theoretical argument is based on knowing something happens but not being able to observe it. That is different than stating that the difference can be seen and then saying it is only theoretical.

Fair enough.

 

[cnhoff]

2. At 90Hz it uses compression to fit the video stream into the size of 1920x1920. The end result is lossy after decompression, but still very good.

Unfortunately it was confirmed by Bradley and others that is not what's happening.

The picture is indeed rendered at 1920x1920 in SteamVR and is only upscaled in the BSB so it is able to display it on the screens. The detail is not there in the first place and the simple upscaling algorithm in the BSB is not able to reconstruct any of that missing detail.

That's completely different than rendering at full res. and applying compression to fit the stream into a lower data rate. It would actually be possible to preserve most of the visible detail that way, but that is not what's happening.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Unfortunately it was confirmed by Bradley and others that is not what's happening.

The picture is indeed rendered at 1920x1920 in SteamVR and is only upscaled in the BSB so it is able to display it on the screens. The detail is not there in the first place and the simple upscaling algorithm in the BSB is not able to reconstruct any of that missing detail.

That's completely different than rendering at full res. and applying compression to fit the stream into a a lower data rate. It would actually be possible to preserve most of the visible detail that way, but that is not what's happening.

I'm done arguing about this.

 

[Leynad777]

Unfortunately it was confirmed by Bradley and others that is not what's happening.

The picture is indeed rendered at 1920x1920 in SteamVR and is only upscaled in the BSB so it is able to display it on the screens. The detail is not there in the first place and the simple upscaling algorithm in the BSB is not able to reconstruct any of that missing detail.

That's completely different than rendering at full res. and applying compression to fit the stream into a lower data rate. It would actually be possible to preserve most of the visible detail that way, but that is not what's happening.

I can't imagine how this effect can only be subtle. If I run my G9 (1440p) with 1080p, it looks far worse than running a native 1080p Display with the same size (I owned already one) and similar effect I had with my (former) 8KX running the default quality-setting probably running in 1440p mode I guess. It just wasn't using the full resolution and no matter how many pixels you push with supersampling, it's blurry. Night & day difference when switching to the full res.

 

[cnhoff]

I can't imagine how this effect can only be subtle. If I run my G9 (1440p) with 1080p, it looks far worse than running a native 1080p Display with the same size (I owned already one) and similar effect I had with my (former) 8KX running the default quality-setting probably running in 1440p mode I guess. It just wasn't using the full resolution and no matter how many pixels you push with supersampling, it's blurry. Night & day difference when switching to the full res.

Well in the end it's close to G2 resolution at 90Hz, which is not shabby at all, but nothing more than that.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Vent your spleens! Get it all out based on what you imagine it is like!

 

[Leynad777]

Well in the end it's close to G2 resolution at 90Hz, which is not shabby at all, but nothing more than that.

That's exactly what I doubt. Running native resolution is always sharper than simple physical upscaling, if you can't divide the pixels with a 1:4 ratio like with for example from 1080p to 4k, but 1920 doesn't fit so well inside 2560.

 

[metalnwood]

However the resolution thing is only partly right.

1. The Beyond is always displaying 2,560 x 2,560 resolution, period. This is what the display is showing all the time.

Vent your spleens! Get it all out based on what you imagine it is like!

There are plenty of people on the bsb discord who are quite clear on the differences, some care more than others. The resolution thing is one that was touched on the other week about using the terms correctly.

A picture that is shown on a screen of a particular resolution does not necessarily have that resolution itself. A low resolution picture of the earth taken from the moon has shown on many high def tv's but it is not a high resolution image.
So I am not sure what you are correlating between the panel resolution and the resolution contained in the image.

 

[Leynad777]

A picture that is shown on a screen of a particular resolution does not necessarily have that resolution itself. A low resolution picture of the earth taken from the moon has shown on many high def tv's but it is not a high resolution image.
So I am not sure what you are correlating between the panel resolution and the resolution contained in the image.

Upscaling is part of my job and for a 200 cm print I've upscaled today a tiny 33 kb JPEG with astonishing decent results thanks to an AI-based upscaler that adds details that aren't there. With the bicubic upscaler in Photoshop the results would've been very blurry mess and with linear upscaling look more like Minecraft.

What the BSB does is different: It puts a 1920x1920 image into a physical 2560x2560 pattern without any processing, which adds some blurriness you also get in the standalone-mode with the Quest compare to the PCVR-modes.

 

[cnhoff]

I'm done arguing about this.

You can of course choose to do so.

But there is no use in arguing about facts anyway. If you do a long post, making several statements, you need to be prepared that people actually read them and comment on them.

I am sure if the name of the manufacturer would start with a P there would be plenty of arguments about bad design and sleazy behavior.

 

[cnhoff]

Upscaling is part of my job and for a 200 cm print I've upscaled today a tiny 33 kb JPEG with astonishing decent results thanks to an AI-based upscaler that adds details that aren't there. With the bicubic upscaler in Photoshop the results would've been very blurry mess and with linear upscaling look more like Minecraft.

What the BSB does is different: It puts a 1920x1920 image into a physical 2560x2560 pattern without any processing, which adds some blurriness you also get in the standalone-mode with the Quest compare to the PCVR-modes.

It's simple...you cannot display a 1920x1920 image directly as-is on a 2560x2560 screen, you need to upsample it to the panels resolution to do that. From all I have read, that is the single and simple reason why this is done.

 

[metalnwood]

What the BSB does is different: It puts a 1920x1920 image into a physical 2560x2560 pattern without any processing, which adds some blurriness you also get in the standalone-mode with the Quest compare to the PCVR-modes.

Yes, some time ago we found out what the driver was and it was not smart, just a basic 'stretch'

 

[RCHeliguy]

All out yet?

I find this pretty funny.

Yup, I can't possibly enjoy this headset or think it looks sharper than the Varjo Aero even at 90Hz, because that would be impossible.

Keep telling me how this couldn't be acceptable or should be substandard.

 

[Leynad777]

It's simple...you cannot display a 1920x1920 image directly as-is on a 2560x2560 screen, you need to upsample it to the panels resolution to do that. From all I have read, that is the single and simple reason why this is done.

However this is done, it's basically the same as running your display below native resolution with similar results. It's obvious in Windows and less in games, depending how sharp they are. iRacing is usually very sharp in VR while ACC is blurry, so probably less noticeable. I prefer sharpness and don't mind edge flickering so much while others are more the opposite. I writing this with the Quest 3 and my mirrored full res G9 and it's the sharpest VR-experience for desktop-mode I've experienced so far. More 1080p-ish than 1440p, but also more 75" instead of 49. For me the Quest 3 is more native PCVR than the BSB at 90 Hz.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Let's keep this going!

"It's obvious"
"It's basically the same"
"I can't imagine it could"

So many great opinions based on zero experience with the product.

More, more more!!!

 

[cnhoff]

So many great opinions based on zero experience with the product.

Have you ever tried a Crystal?

Given the abundance of posts you have done all over the place on that product? Needless to say, very little of them are positive to say the least.

I was merely doing a facts-based comment on an obvious technical mistake in your summary.

 

[metalnwood]

Let's keep this going!

"It's obvious"
"It's basically the same"
"I can't imagine it could"

So many great opinions based on zero experience with the product.

More, more more!!!

You did ask for more before didn't you?

I said today that many bsb owners have different opinions on the 90hz topic. You have seen it yourself and I think you have probably said it. So there is no argument but once you spike it with 'its only theoretical' then you are implying that those others are not seeing what they are seeing and that common sense about what is happening is not visible.

Keep telling me how this couldn't be acceptable or should be substandard.

No one is though. Its a discussion on how it works and it is perfectly acceptable to a whole lot of people including yourself. You can be fine with the image at 90hz and if it is as clear as the g2 as well as having the oled contrast then it is spectacular. It's not as clear as the image at 75 though, so no need to imply it is.

So many great opinions based on zero experience with the product.

More, more more!!!

I took a masterclass on making huge assumptions with no experience. I looked over many of your pimax posts. The keen eyed may even say one or two is just your post with the name crystal changed to bsb

 

[Leynad777]

The 90 Hz thing seems rather a minor issue compare to the many other potential issues with the headset. This guy had problems with glare, dead pixels, wrong face gasket and IPD apart from delivery issues, others struggle more with the lousy comfort. How an iPhone supposed to be able to scan a face reliably without reference objects is beyond my imagination anyway.

 

[RCHeliguy]

There are a lot of potential issues with the Beyond. Some Bigscreen will work with the end user to resolve, others are personal sensitivities.

I think you'll find I have tried to list them.