Is Classic Content Overlooked in Simracing?

[Tormentor]

I love classic cars and tracks. Love to drive GPL or AC with DRM mod or GPL2 mod. They are special.
IMO the one and only reason so many don't like old cars is the fact, that they are not able to drive without TC and ABS, using a clutch und heel-toe with a h-shifter.
Thats why ACC with Blancpain series ist the next upcoming sim. Pull a finger to shift up or down, step on the brakes and hit the trottle as hard as you can, the rest is done by driving aids. Easy enough for the new generation.

 

[Xiang Zhang]

There is no surprise that difficulty is what keeps most players away from those cars or even tracks. In our local sim community, the more driving skills & techniques that is required for a certain car & track combo, the less player will participate that event, and lap time gap among the players is usually huge, which also scares a lot them away.

 

[iwn]

This must be a generation question as well. Me at 50 is a rare breed in the social Network I live, even though I have tried to lure the majority of people I know to virtual motorsports. I have had the priviledge to follow careers of all my country´s world champions and their predecessors. I have stood one meter away from rally champion Timo Mäkinen and his Ford Escort and I have collected racing pictures from chewing gum packets. I have drooled over Corgi Toys CanAm and F1 models in local department store in early seventies. I have raced sleds with other boys prentending to be Ronnie Peterson...

To put it short classic motorsport is the thing for me. I´m very glad and satisfied with the AC nowadays. It had some classic content originally but the ever dilligent modders have expanded the horizon even further. I like to race whatever virtual vehicle available and I love the adrenalin it gives, it is just that classic racers add the time dimension as well. I´m so ready to pay for DLC if classic content comes around but in the meantime thanks again modders.

 

[Dobermann92]

The best drivers can still race with old cars.

The skillgap is much higher, so it isn't worth it, because in the end developers still need to make money. You can set up a server or group for higher skilled players, but most of us happy to just drive GT3/GTE cars competetively.

 

[Tormentor]

"They simply do not sell well enough."

That's pretty much all you need to read in the entire article.

Then ask for more money!!!!
With ACC early access you give away a gem for almost free. Licensed series, with all cars and all tracks for under 20€, why? This makes no sense to me. You cannot complain that something does'nt sell and give away (for almost nothing) somewhat that would sell with ease.
I've spend near 200€ to Raceroom, just because they have Group5 cars and classic DTM, and i can race them on the Nordschleife. I bought and will buy everything from them, no matter if i race it or not. Just because they deserve my money and i support them, and for the hope more classic stuff is comming.
If you would bring a classic racing series, lets say GroupC or 70's CanAm or 1992 DTM with all cars and tracks, many here would buy this. Double or quadruple the price, don't care...

 

[Mark Ratzenbacher]

If you do not know the origin of motorsport, you can not compete for the inheritance.

I personally dont like all aero-cars in sim-racing. I can´t feel it´s impact on increased grip on certain speeds. Its a problem of the simulations not being able to do so.

Aerodynamic calculations are basic in all current games, and most people argue about the not perfect adhesion calculations of tires.

It shows the limit of home simulators and with that argumentation chain i leave you to your own thoughts.

I started my serious employment with the hobby with GTLegends. With the actual gen of sims there is no set of cars that is as exciting, except the DRM Revival. Mostly just one or two cars, no complete set.

That is the reason everybody jumped on the GT-3 train. The only exisitng set and even across all platforms. Boring, boring stuff.

If you don´t know the thrill of racing real people in slow cars, then you don´t know what a simulation is able to convey.

If you believe GT3-racing online is close to real-life racing, you must believe that Alice in Wonderland is real as well.

Historic content is the only true motorsport simulation with the highest realism factor. But keep on hyping your faster/higher/better-games. I couldn´t care less about unrealistic fanboys who never tasted the mixture of real asphalt, fuel, sweat and blood.

 

[StefanoCasillo]

If you would bring a classic racing series, lets say GroupC or 70's CanAm or 1992 DTM with all cars and tracks, many here would buy this. Double or quadruple the price, don't care...

and what if they don't?
It's always too easy to talk about things when it's not your work,money,family,life on the line.

The only real way forward to make this happen would be a crowdfunding operation like Patrick Marek was suggesting.

 

[manu68]

I love old racing cars. Just a question of generation, ambiance, ..
The modern cars are fantastic, but I will never go on a tracks to look at an e-race. The have to much assists, buttons, ...
Old race cars are straightforward, brutal, noisy, unpredictable,...?

Just look at "week end of a champion " documentary with Jackie Stewart. Easy to understand why formula one was so popular. Women, heroes, risks,....

I love current gt3 too. And I think that there is some great racing car series like formula Ford.
Why kunos gave up with such cars. The were incredible in netkar pro.

 

[RichardHessels]

View attachment 296420
This is 40+ years old so it must be a classic ugly and slow.
And as the sims get better the mix between new and classic is even more enjoyable

It's not slow, but it aint a good looker.

 

[stubs66]

I know, most of the people does. For me they are ugly and slow.

Porsche 962C ugly & slow... hmmmm..

 

[Patrik Marek]

and what if they don't?
It's always too easy to talk about things when it's not your work,money,family,life on the line.

The only real way forward to make this happen would be a crowdfunding operation like Patrick Marek was suggesting.

not that I'm making any offer, and it's probably not the best place to discuss this anyway, but would you guys be opened to licensing your engine to other parties if they wanted to build a game on it ?
Or did selling AC (if I remember it correctly) prohibit such thing ?

 

[Bryan O'Connor]

"They simply do not sell well enough."


Then ask for more money!!!!
With ACC early access you give away a gem for almost free. Licensed series, with all cars and all tracks for under 20€, why? This makes no sense to me. You cannot complain that something does'nt sell and give away (for almost nothing) somewhat that would sell with ease.
I've spend near 200€ to Raceroom, just because they have Group5 cars and classic DTM, and i can race them on the Nordschleife. I bought and will buy everything from them, no matter if i race it or not. Just because they deserve my money and i support them, and for the hope more classic stuff is comming.
If you would bring a classic racing series, lets say GroupC or 70's CanAm or 1992 DTM with all cars and tracks, many here would buy this. Double or quadruple the price, don't care...

Because not everyone is willing to spend hundreds of £'s on something they may only get an hour to do each day (if they are lucky).
Not every sim racer has a dedicated rig and hours in the day to be able to justify spending hundreds or even thousands on their hobby.
Some (like me) use their desk for work and at the end of the night when the kids are in bed i might get half an hour to get the wheel out, attach it to the desk and have a quick race on ACC, pCARS 2 or RRE.
Asking for more money isn't the answer and simple economics dictates that something cheaper will sell more than something more expensive - they have to weigh up potential units shipped vs cost/profit. Is it better to sell 100,000 of something at £20 or 30,000 of something at £50? I know what i'd rather if it was my product.
Also when you say 'many here would buy this' that isn't enough. Why spend £millions developing a product that will probably only sell in the tens of thousands at most?
Because you want something doesn't mean there are many others like you who do (taste is, after all, subjective).
People have to want the stuff - and going by the trend in online races - modern GT and open wheelers are by far and away the most played series.
Releasing an expensive niche product won't change that.

 

[Bryan O'Connor]

and what if they don't?
It's always too easy to talk about things when it's not your work,money,family,life on the line.

The only real way forward to make this happen would be a crowdfunding operation like Patrick Marek was suggesting.

If only there was a crowdfunded game out there that the community helped build and decided on the content......

 

[stubs66]

I imagine some of the issues are that it's pretty impossible to get any proper data for these , more unknown , cars / single seaters

Hi Patrik, i'm not sure, older racecar guys tend be enthusiasts, usually are much less protective, in my experience happy to give unlimited access to data etc. Maybe it should be easier to create more accurate representations? The Mak Group C 962 i understand was developed very closely with Oscar Larrauri someone with huge hands on experience of the car, and i think you can tell from the detail and the convincing driving model, likewise your BTCC Primera of course, which is absolutely spot on.

 

[Patrik Marek]

you can see that a bit in Flying sim community, which is even more niche market, people are willing to buy single aircraft for $100 , but that doesn't mean that every major company makes flying simulators

you do have to feed your family, as Lord Kunos stated himself, and he will know thing or two about game development

 

[Stanislav Minakov]

I'm too lazy to read all four pages of comments so I gonna write my opinion despite the fact that it can duplicate some things which were already said here.
I like classic cars. I like to watch them attacking the Goodwood circuit, I like to watch them on pictures. But I don't really like to drive them just because they need much more attention, much more consistent approach to really master them.
Modern GT racing, such as GT3 class, is easier to jump in and drive. You have all necessary driving ads to use, it requires less time to ride in.
But I think that this problem is just a part of the bigger problem called "everybody wants everything". Everybody's moaning "add this", "add that", "add this Lotus/Ford/Ferrari/Maserati/Trabant/Lada". Only big and rich studies can do this, like developers of Forza or Gran Turismo, they can manage to add 700 cars. But this is mass-market. Most of the serious simracing developers don't have such power and money to do this. Yes, maybe iRacing will get to the point when you can have a CAREER from virtual carting to VEC of virtual F1.
But not now. Now developers are limited in choice, and they choose the most popular things, which can bring some cash, they don't really listen and care about moaning.

 

[Patrik Marek]

Hi Patrik, i'm not sure, older racecar guys tend be enthusiasts, usually are much less protective, in my experience happy to give unlimited access to data etc. Maybe it should be easier to create more accurate representations? The Mak Group C 962 i understand was developed very closely with Oscar Larrauri someone with huge hands on experience of the car, and i think you can tell from the detail and the convincing driving model, likewise your BTCC Primera of course, which is absolutely spot on.

Can't speak of Makcorp, but speaking of Primera, well look at it this way

physics was in development over a year, more like 2 ( sure, maybe not really 10hours a day, but definitely in thousands of hours in total) , and lot of that is because lack of actual data such as MOTEC telemetry
yes people are opened and happy to share, but you also speak to guy X who tells you that car understeered on throttle, where guy Y will tell you that it oversteered

I think that for things like this - classic content made by enthusiast - the only way to go is modding, you simply can't make enough money to make it a business

if I take some sort of average salary for game developers ( which is hugely averaged, since engine coders are payed differently to car artists )
if I take $100,000 a year per arist ( which doesn't really account for electricity, rent of business property, computers, IT support ), and take 10 artists ( 2 skinners, 6 car and track modellers , 2 coders - not a big team by any means ) we have a 1 mil a year, give it 4 years of development, trhow in some money for marketing, support, computers, and we are talking on budget of 5mil dollars, which could be probably still pretty naive and it could easily cost twice that much !!!

if you sell a copy at $100 ( which would be pretty hard) , you have to sell over 50,000 copies
at more easy going price $25, you have to sell 200,000 , to make profit

and that's also saying that you get 100% of the sale price, which is also not true in real life

so yep,
some sort of crowd funding, where you license engine, ( oh yeah, speaking of licenses, car licenses are quite costly, aren't they?)

so yep, this is just brutal industry ( not quite brutal as VFX for movies ) , and you simply can't easily take too much risk, unless you are fine with bankruptcy

 

[Mark Ratzenbacher]

and what if they don't?
It's always too easy to talk about things when it's not your work,money,family,life on the line.

Its not that long ago, that people made game-breaking mods for FREE, fueled only by their enthusiasm.

Nowadays its DLC´s and mods behind paywalls.

I miss the enthusiasm of only a few years in the past.


p.s: i know that Stefano is an enthusiast, not talking about him, but the whole scene changing, probably the great small communities are missing these days, idk.

 

[Alex Hodgkinson]

This is 40+ years old so it must be a classic ugly and slow.
And as the sims get better the mix between new and classic is even more enjoyable

I absolutely love working on classic content, and the Shadow DN4 is right at the top of my to-do list.

 

[Patrik Marek]

Its not that long ago, that people made game-breaking mods for FREE, fueled only by their enthusiasm.

Nowadays its DLC´s and mods behind paywalls.

I miss the enthusiasm of only a few years in the past.


p.s: i know that Stefano is an enthusiast, not talking about him, but the whole scene changing, probably the great small communities are missing these days, idk.

I haven't really seen a lot of payware mods, most of these are fake rips not worth a while, there are few good ones I suppose, but those have been payware before ( like URD) , yes there is the GT1 pack that's also payware,

the thing about enthusiasm, it's hard to keep it up
for AC, I've been doing it for 4 years, and it's tough to keep going and stay motivated.