Have Your Say: Wet Weather Sim Racing - Is It Even Necessary?
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Rain is the one thing Codies F1 games have that is far better than the rest of the competition. They have managed to implement drying lines, changing grip, varied wetness due to bridges and stuff so well. When done properly, it's fantastic like that. Games where it's done half heartedly - like Gran Turismo - are pathetic.
Racing in the rain is something that happens, and from an immersive point of view should be included, along with a 24 hour day/night cycle.
Racing in the rain is something that happens, and from an immersive point of view should be included, along with a 24 hour day/night cycle.
This articel is bullshit in my eyes. And the reason is there is no wet weather simulation out there. pcars does not simulate wet weather in terms of physics so how can ppl struggle then ? And rfactor 2 does it very bad with no real good rain tires and overall thats not correct. But its not only rain which makes dynamic weather special it can be the mix between sun and clouds or little rain which change the grip a bit but makes the race more dynamic.
How dare a simulation simulate real world variables! Whatever next?
How about other weather like variable wind & gusts? a post above me mentioned local temperature changes too... neither of those need much in the way of graphical changes or even new tyre models - they would need a basic weather model, but that's arguably easier than actual rain.
Personally I don't really mind either way, I still enjoy racing in the dry still air - if someone does decent rain & tyres great, if they don't, whatever.
Personally I don't really mind either way, I still enjoy racing in the dry still air - if someone does decent rain & tyres great, if they don't, whatever.
We want rain on Racing simulators!
Yes weather is something i want if simulated properly. Weather is important for off road, weather adds depth to track racing. But racing in extreme weather that would normally end a race is not important.
Tl;dr - yes but games currently make wet weather driving far more difficult than it really is.
Yes, we need wet weather and it seems the time for decent implementation has come. In the UK rain often has to be considered a factor so it should be in the game.
From many years real track experience in all sorts of cars my opinion is that racing games currently make driving in the rain far more difficult than it really is. I've had some superb fun battling a Caterham around Anglesey in the rain and crosswinds high enough to move the car right to left across the track, sure the semi slicks are tricky when cold but once they warm up they allow easy to recover slides and the fact the tyres still squeal in the rain surprises many people. Cars like the Honda S2000 were made out to be some sort of death trap in the rain but they have plenty of grip and could easily keep up with FWD cars with similar power. Take the right car on a wet track day and it can be awesome fun, my Audi RS3 running on Michelin Pilot Super Sport tyres was as easy to drive on a streaming wet airfield though big standing puddles as it was in the dry. Unlike games, the stewards won't let you out on a wet track on full slicks in the rain!
At rally school, they deliberately wet the track to make learning the skills easier and eventually add an extra challenge, this has to be part of a game for me. The Porsche Driving Experience with the Kick Plate and Ice Hill are both superb ways to learn more about driving in the wet and with low grip. Take a GT3RS on Pilot Cup Sport 2 tyres and prepare to be amazed how much grip and control a fast 500bhp RWD car really has, oh and I'm afraid it always understeers before it oversteers though many sim racers like to argue this point (AC really is very close to the real GT3RS in the dry imo). In games like Forza cars like the GT3 RS become almost undrivable in the rain and it simply isn't the case.
If games could more closely match real world wet track driving then it really would be great.
So back to the games:
--- Forza 6 fixed rain and standing puddles (some on hills!) was awful and the AI still follow the dry lines with race ruining consequences.
+/- Pcars was ok, especially for a shortened Le Mans 24hr race with day, night, early morning mist and rain. The AI seemingly being unaffected by the rain was disappointing and the press demo of pcars2 seems to be exactly the same.
+ I'm hoping Forza 7 and pcars2 have moved this on with the true dynamic weather they claim.
++ DiRT 4, I like it and I know many others don't, had superb weather effects, stages wet after rain could be more tricky than stages with full on rain. Rain and fog at night on long stages are intense and eye straining. I don't know exactly why but I really click with the cars on snow stages. Maybe they make a bit too much use of weather to create artificial difficulty but other than that, brilliant.
+++ F1 2017, so far for me F1 2017 does the best job of simulating changing track conditions. Damp tracks are treacherous and lap times increase quickly as the rain starts to fall. The drying track and drying line are brilliant, makes a real cat and mouse game of when to change tyres.
+++ Motorsport Manager deserves a mention too because wet weather really adds a huge amount to the race strategy in this little game. Try the Bottom to the Top Challenge (not career) if you want to see this for yourself.
FIFA 17 deserves a mention here too because the wet pitch and ball really do change the game so well. Through balls skid on way too far, passes go astray and strikers skew easy chances. Wet weather can be made both fun and realistic in games so I hope we see that in the racing games this autumn.
Yes, we need wet weather and it seems the time for decent implementation has come. In the UK rain often has to be considered a factor so it should be in the game.
From many years real track experience in all sorts of cars my opinion is that racing games currently make driving in the rain far more difficult than it really is. I've had some superb fun battling a Caterham around Anglesey in the rain and crosswinds high enough to move the car right to left across the track, sure the semi slicks are tricky when cold but once they warm up they allow easy to recover slides and the fact the tyres still squeal in the rain surprises many people. Cars like the Honda S2000 were made out to be some sort of death trap in the rain but they have plenty of grip and could easily keep up with FWD cars with similar power. Take the right car on a wet track day and it can be awesome fun, my Audi RS3 running on Michelin Pilot Super Sport tyres was as easy to drive on a streaming wet airfield though big standing puddles as it was in the dry. Unlike games, the stewards won't let you out on a wet track on full slicks in the rain!
At rally school, they deliberately wet the track to make learning the skills easier and eventually add an extra challenge, this has to be part of a game for me. The Porsche Driving Experience with the Kick Plate and Ice Hill are both superb ways to learn more about driving in the wet and with low grip. Take a GT3RS on Pilot Cup Sport 2 tyres and prepare to be amazed how much grip and control a fast 500bhp RWD car really has, oh and I'm afraid it always understeers before it oversteers though many sim racers like to argue this point (AC really is very close to the real GT3RS in the dry imo). In games like Forza cars like the GT3 RS become almost undrivable in the rain and it simply isn't the case.
If games could more closely match real world wet track driving then it really would be great.
So back to the games:
--- Forza 6 fixed rain and standing puddles (some on hills!) was awful and the AI still follow the dry lines with race ruining consequences.
+/- Pcars was ok, especially for a shortened Le Mans 24hr race with day, night, early morning mist and rain. The AI seemingly being unaffected by the rain was disappointing and the press demo of pcars2 seems to be exactly the same.
+ I'm hoping Forza 7 and pcars2 have moved this on with the true dynamic weather they claim.
++ DiRT 4, I like it and I know many others don't, had superb weather effects, stages wet after rain could be more tricky than stages with full on rain. Rain and fog at night on long stages are intense and eye straining. I don't know exactly why but I really click with the cars on snow stages. Maybe they make a bit too much use of weather to create artificial difficulty but other than that, brilliant.
+++ F1 2017, so far for me F1 2017 does the best job of simulating changing track conditions. Damp tracks are treacherous and lap times increase quickly as the rain starts to fall. The drying track and drying line are brilliant, makes a real cat and mouse game of when to change tyres.
+++ Motorsport Manager deserves a mention too because wet weather really adds a huge amount to the race strategy in this little game. Try the Bottom to the Top Challenge (not career) if you want to see this for yourself.
FIFA 17 deserves a mention here too because the wet pitch and ball really do change the game so well. Through balls skid on way too far, passes go astray and strikers skew easy chances. Wet weather can be made both fun and realistic in games so I hope we see that in the racing games this autumn.
So far rain and wet conditions are poorly implemented (physic and graphic side).
Moreover, AI behaviour still needs improvements, and human behaviour is far worse in MP experience.
Nonetheless I think that is a feature that bad or good need to be in the next sims, because an evolution is needed.
Moreover, AI behaviour still needs improvements, and human behaviour is far worse in MP experience.
Nonetheless I think that is a feature that bad or good need to be in the next sims, because an evolution is needed.
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Andreas Knöpke
Let's drive side by side!
It's simple:
- For offline-AI racers it's a thing.
- For online racing it's rather counter productive as it widens the skill gap and thus makes the races more dull for the majority of people.
To be fair: Dirt 4 is doing this nicely as well and throwing the hole weather system at you when progressing a bit further in the career-mode (starts slowly getting ugly with level 15). Up to a point that it seems always raining with fog even in Spain and Australia. I had quite some fun especially with Group B cars and proper clutch and h-shifter
Rain is often huge FPS killer. Many think they want rain, but wouldn't much use it. Lower grip, lower speeds, lower FPS. So people just turn it off.
NetKar Pro had rain and water puddles. But Kunos made conscious choice to leave it out from AC. Because their statistics showed, that almost nobody actually used rain, in NetKar.
Same would happen again. It just kills your FPS, is difficult, low grip and makes you drive slow. People already choose optimal grip for their races. And have already difficulties to stay on track/avoid incidents in MP, wet track wouldn't help with T1 disasters at all.
Sure it could be "nice". With dynamic puddles, drying in sunlight faster than in shadow, water planing and all that. But overall people don't want it as much as they think they do.
I don't race in AMS night races either, simply because night racing kills FPS.
Also, I don't tend to use even overcast in racing games... because Finland has enough depressing crap weather IRL. If I had Ferrari, I would take it on track on a sunny day.
NetKar Pro had rain and water puddles. But Kunos made conscious choice to leave it out from AC. Because their statistics showed, that almost nobody actually used rain, in NetKar.
Same would happen again. It just kills your FPS, is difficult, low grip and makes you drive slow. People already choose optimal grip for their races. And have already difficulties to stay on track/avoid incidents in MP, wet track wouldn't help with T1 disasters at all.
Sure it could be "nice". With dynamic puddles, drying in sunlight faster than in shadow, water planing and all that. But overall people don't want it as much as they think they do.
I don't race in AMS night races either, simply because night racing kills FPS.
Also, I don't tend to use even overcast in racing games... because Finland has enough depressing crap weather IRL. If I had Ferrari, I would take it on track on a sunny day.
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Ok let me amend my answer slightly :
I would like to see dynamic weather (along with a dynamic track) *IF* the developers put enough time into the code optimisation and engine so that there is a minimal performance hit.
Whether this is possible - I don't know.
But I don't want dynamic weather if it means I suddenly need to spend more money on a new PC or upgrades. Hell I live in Ireland....I can experience dynamic weather 365 days of the year
Nick Gregory
iRating is just a number
You're not always going to be driving in perfect conditions, so leaving weather out entirely makes little sense.
Definitively a "Yes" to proper weather implementation in racing sims.
Of course ... it needs some kind of a rough weather forecast before the race to make it more predictable. Not like the very random "changeable weather" option in e.g. GTR2, which could have made a race so unpredictable that it wasn't funny at all.
And i like the realistic approach in PCARS2 that weather (or rain) varies at different parts of the track. On big tracks like Nordschleife or Le Mans it massively increases the tactical part of a race. A proper tire compound selection becomes a crucial factor. But it also makes the race more thrilling.
Of course ... it needs some kind of a rough weather forecast before the race to make it more predictable. Not like the very random "changeable weather" option in e.g. GTR2, which could have made a race so unpredictable that it wasn't funny at all.
And i like the realistic approach in PCARS2 that weather (or rain) varies at different parts of the track. On big tracks like Nordschleife or Le Mans it massively increases the tactical part of a race. A proper tire compound selection becomes a crucial factor. But it also makes the race more thrilling.
I don't think it is absolutely necessary, but I will say that one of the best sim experiences I've ever had in a multiplayer race came in a qualifying session where it rained at first, then started to dry out. It was on GTR2, and I was one of a couple of people who were driving NGT Porsches in a group of about 25 people, most of whom were in GT cars. The track started to dry, and I noticed a drying line starting to form. I ducked into the pits with only a few minutes left, for slicks, and then put the NGT car 2nd on the grid. This happened years ago, and I still remember that race, because of the rain.
Certainly not a must have, you can live just fine without it. It's nice to have variety I suppose, but I almost never select it when selecting weather for myself. In Assetto Corsa lack of it has never bothered me at all. Driving in clear weather is just more fun. Project Cars overuses the feature, having way too much rain races in career.
Developers should be able to prioritize when making sims. Night, rain or visual damage are nice and all, but there are far more important aspects in a sim racer game.
Developers should be able to prioritize when making sims. Night, rain or visual damage are nice and all, but there are far more important aspects in a sim racer game.
