Have Your Say: Has LMP1 Prototype Racing Had Its Day?
- Thread starter Paul Jeffrey
- Start date
That's just how the whole global warming histeria works. They direct it using government instead of keeping the gov away and let people choose. And it's also the reason I just don't believe it.
Samehappens in racing "We want innovation, but must be done this way, if you do different you can't race"
Except for the teams converged on the electrical solution themselves. Remember in 2014, we had petrol and diesel, we had turbo and NA, we had V4, V6 and V8, and we had flywheel, super capacitor and battery. The rules did not change since then, and we ended up converging on turbo chargers, petrol and batteries because that was the best solution. The ACO did not regulate that, it happened simply because that was the best solution for going fast. (We do still have a V4 versus a V6 however.) There is an argument for diesel being better because it contains more energy per litre, but the added weight negates this, and it's a technology that is unmarketable now.
The hybrid rules are basically staying the same for 2020. They aren't banning anything. You can still bring a super capacitor if you want. You can still bring diesel, a NA V8, etc. The only addition is that the car must taken on charge at a pit stop. It isn't replacing energy recovery, it's simply taking on electricity. For those that don't realise, electricity is a form of energy...same as petrol...which is also topped up during a pit stop. The car is actually being given MORE ENERGY in the pit stop. It has to do 1km on electricity alone? Well both the Porsche and Toyota did that today, and the Toyota has always done the pit lane length on it.
Basically, very little is changing, but people are having a massive strop because some cars broke down in an endurance race. If you don't like break downs, and the chance of a top class car not winning, then there's a WTCC race you can watch somewhere. I hear it's got loads of innovation, because it has stickers and things!
It's more like you are having a massive strop because people would like to see a top class that depended less on factory teams and a place where if innovation happens it is affordable and makes sense, not something that was only capable of attracting 4 manufacturers in 10 years.
Also no need to take it so hard, it's jut a fan forum not.. nevermind. Whatever we discuss here won't change a thing anyway
Also no need to take it so hard, it's jut a fan forum not.. nevermind. Whatever we discuss here won't change a thing anyway
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Honestly now, the only real issue with Le Mans is that it became a bit of niche. Some euro thing with expensive stuff. It really need to expose itself a lot more, be more accessible to everyone in the world. Right now, it's neither big nor glamorous as it could be. Alongside with Indy 500, it's simply (or should be) the most iconic and most important race in the world.
It's more like you are having a massive strop because people would like to see a top class that depended less on factory teams and a place where if innovation happens it is affordable and makes sense, not something that was only capable of attracting 4 manufacturers in 10 years.
Also no need to take it so hard, it's jut a fan forum not.. nevermind. Whatever we discuss here won't change a thing anyway
I didn't say you were having a strop (because you're not), but MANY others are.
We would all like to see a top class that has innovation and is more affordable. But this is the cycles you get in racing. We had it in Group C days, we most certainly had it in the late 90s in the most extreme example of it. We've got people saying bring back Group C and the late 90s GT1s, who clearly just know these cars were awesome, and not why they went away. The late 90s GT1s were the least innovative cars to lead Le Mans too! They were awesome, but going back in time and remembering how awesome some cars were doesn't mean it's the right solution.
However, declaring LMP1 dead, useless, etc because cars broke down is completely the opposite of the spirit of what Le Mans is. And that's an endurance race. Some people have become too used to seeing extremely reliable cars racing door to door like a BTCC race. The truth is, Le Mans has never been like that until around 2014-2016. It's always been a long slog, and in some cases, last man standing. So some cars broke down a P2 almost won, and everything is a disaster? No, thats a classic race thank you very much! That's 1995 and 1998 all over again! That's 1991 and the Mazda 787B! People forget how slow that thing actually was! Breakdowns and attrition IS Le Mans and gave us some of the most icon winners of all time. Mixing classes IS Le Mans. Who remembers the GT1s beating the LMP675s? That was less than a decade ago. Le Mans is an engineering challenge as much as anything else. If we decide to bin the P1s based on the apparent disaster of some break downs (the 9 was crashed btw, didn't break down), isn't that the opposite of what they should be doing? Isn't that a challenge to overcome? Or do we just bin it all and start again?
We have at least 6 confirmed private P1 cars for 2018. 2 Ginettas, 2 Perrin, 1 ByKolles and 1 SMP Dallara. I have my reservations over the Perrins frankly, but things are on the up for private cars. Isn't that what people were after? We'll see how that pans out, but going by those numbers, the future seems pretty good. In 1995 there were 5 cars in the top class, and 3 in the second. If those numbers do come to fruition, that makes it a pretty large P1 grid.
Lets keep things in perspective here. LMP1 is not dead. The race was not a disaster. It was old school in the extreme. It was an endurance race.
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From an expert manufacturer
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/de-chaunac-lmp1-hybrid-too-complicated-of-a-car/
Every year the numbers seem to make a good future. Based on past news about privateer teams we shouldn't even have space for P2 cars in WEC grid by now.
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/de-chaunac-lmp1-hybrid-too-complicated-of-a-car/
Every year the numbers seem to make a good future. Based on past news about privateer teams we shouldn't even have space for P2 cars in WEC grid by now.
An expert in building P2 cars. His ORECA team does not build P1s, it simple operates the logistical and sporting side of the Toyota operation. The Toyota P1 cars are built by TMG/TRD, formally TTE. I don't think it's a coincidence that the team that can't get a win is saying that. Porsche, Audi and Toyota did not say it - Toyota said they'd leave if hybrids were binned, and Peugeot is only interested in hybrids for P1. So de Chaunac can say that, but the actual manufacturers are saying otherwise. Who do you want to listen to? The teams paying for all this and interested in joining, or the man who is running some sporting operations?
Also, we are sitting arguing there should be innovation, but also arguing hybrids should be binned? So...you want to go backwards to regular petrol engines to innovate? How is that innovation? Unless you're IMSA and think sticker books are glorious.
Innovation is going faster, and doing it with less and new ways. The Toyota set the fastest lap time around this Le Mans layout, and the highest ever average speed of any Le Mans layout this weekend, and it did it by using less energy than any other car ever before. Is that not innovation? Just because it isn't a giant awesome chapparel wing, and doesn't have 18 wheels, doesn't mean there's no innovation. They're doing more than ever, on less than ever.
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Ghoults
Lasse Luisu
Higher straightline speeds do not solve anything. Instead it just creates more danger when the closing speeds get out of control. If one car is doing 270 and other one is doing 370 in the night then you are looking at 370kmh incident happening sooner or later.
Also the problem with the hybrids in lemans was not the hybrid tech. It was the 5 car grid. Whatever happens to the engines you need to make sure the costs come down to sane levels. I think we could easily see over 10 cars in lmp1 if the hybrid engines were kicked out. Doing that would make the cars faster, lighter, safer, sound better, have bigger grids, bring down costs and improve the racing. Just like this hybrid nonsense has hurt f1 it is hurting wec. It is just a fact that there is not enough money in this world to put more than 2 or 3 competitive teams into lmp1.
Also the problem with the hybrids in lemans was not the hybrid tech. It was the 5 car grid. Whatever happens to the engines you need to make sure the costs come down to sane levels. I think we could easily see over 10 cars in lmp1 if the hybrid engines were kicked out. Doing that would make the cars faster, lighter, safer, sound better, have bigger grids, bring down costs and improve the racing. Just like this hybrid nonsense has hurt f1 it is hurting wec. It is just a fact that there is not enough money in this world to put more than 2 or 3 competitive teams into lmp1.
Oreca was (or still is) assisting Toyota in chassis development in early days. In any case still more of an expert than any of us. I take his word over yours any day
No cars are doing 370kmh. The highest in P1 was around 335kmh. Highest in P2 was about 340kmh. The hybrids do not have particularly high top speeds because they lift and coast for energy recovery. They have brutal acceleration, but a slightly lower top speed than the P2s.
The GTE drivers whoever completely disagree with the high top speeds being worse. They prefer the LMP2s to have the new engine and higher speeds because it means the P2 drivers don't need to take risks in traffic now - they can just blow by the GTE cars with ease. To quote Rob Bell - "there will always be some idiot who does something stupid, but this is much safer".
The speed difference is a good thing, and has always existed at Le Mans.
What are these potential numbers based on? Audi wanted hybrids, Peugeot wanted hybrids (as early as 2008), Toyota want hybrids, Porsche want hybrids. If you remove them, Peugeot won't be coming back, and Toyota will leave. We know this because they said so during the early talks about the 2020 regulations. You might get some private cars back, but those are returning in the form of Ginetta, Perrin and Dallara next year anyway.
The cars would not be lighter (the LMP2s are the same weight, in fact the Riley is heavier). The grids would not necessarily be bigger (and they are at a full 60 car grid right now - the biggest ever Le Mans grid), and there has very rarely ever been more than 2 or 3 competitive teams in LMP1 anyway. You have to go back to long long before the hybrid era to get that. In fact we had 3 in the hybrid era just recently, and we didn't have that since the late 90s.
They are not with the TS050. That was made clear at the end of the race today by RLM, who were corrected by ORECA and Toyota after some comments made during the night. It had actually been suggested Toyota helped with the ORECA 07, but that was shot down quite quickly. And whilst he might be an expert, Toyota themselves, Porsche, Audi and Peugeot all disagree with him. If Lapierre had driven the #9 back a little slower, Toyota would've won and he'd have never made that statement.
Peugeot and Audi disagree so much they are racing and plan 4 cars each with the 2020 rule set. Oh wait...
Anyway have a good night bro. As I said nothing we discuss here will change a thing. THere is only hope Toyota and Porsche leave as works team and we stay with them doing engines for privateer teams. Toyota already have one set. That would be a much better scenario for WEC and Le Mans. bye
Anyway have a good night bro. As I said nothing we discuss here will change a thing. THere is only hope Toyota and Porsche leave as works team and we stay with them doing engines for privateer teams. Toyota already have one set. That would be a much better scenario for WEC and Le Mans.
byePeugeot and Audi disagree so much they are racing and plan 4 cars each with the 2020 rule set. Oh wait...
Anyway have a good night bro. As I said nothing we discuss here will change a thing. THere is only hope Toyota and Porsche leave as works team and we stay with them doing engines for privateer teams. Toyota already have one set. That would be a much better scenario for WEC and Le Mans.
It's easy to make smart comments and throw in smilies, but not actually make a reasoned argument. Sorry if I'm coming here with all the advantage of knowledge and reason...
Audi pulled out for diesel and political reasons. Diesel was unmarketable, and VAG could not justify 2 programs both using petrol engines. Peugeot actually BUILT a hybrid in 2008, they were so much for it. Peugeot pulled out and had nothing to do with Le Mans or racing, it was that the company was in turmoil and the road car division was losing money hand over fist. They put in new management and revamped the entire road car fleet and are back in profit, and have been in ACO regulation meetings since they begun. Both of these manufacturers were VERY for hybrid regulations.
Yes bro, more knowledge and reason than a chassis manufacturer CEO, I can't compete with that, so sorry
I'm just agreeing with Audi, Toyota, Peugeot, Porsche and the ACO. Mr ORECA is the odd one out of all the big players. Sorry if you don't agree with those who actually supply the cars rather than just do logistics and have never built a hybrid.
It's easy to quote a single line from a sore loser who refused to even congratulate Porsche, rather than do a bit of research. If you're interested in knowing why the rules are formed this way I recommend most of the 2017 Midweek Motorsport podcasts for quotes and discussions from the manufacturers and ACO on who prefers what technology and who has been involved in the P1 rules (Oreca is not a player in that decision FYI).
The fact of the matter is that the 2020 regulations were drawn up with representatives from Porsche, Audi, Peugeot and BMW present. (Yeah, BMW want hybrid but also want alternative fuels). You can sit and say you think hybrids are bad and would bring more cars but there's no evidence of that and it contracts what the manufacturers asked for with the ACO. Sorry to those who don't like the hybrids, that's what big manufacturers want. For small teams, the new P1-P cars are due next year with no hybrid systems.
Racing at this level is about new technology and pushing limits. You won't get that from just putting customer engines in customer chassis.
It's easy to quote a single line from a sore loser who refused to even congratulate Porsche, rather than do a bit of research. If you're interested in knowing why the rules are formed this way I recommend most of the 2017 Midweek Motorsport podcasts for quotes and discussions from the manufacturers and ACO on who prefers what technology and who has been involved in the P1 rules (Oreca is not a player in that decision FYI).
The fact of the matter is that the 2020 regulations were drawn up with representatives from Porsche, Audi, Peugeot and BMW present. (Yeah, BMW want hybrid but also want alternative fuels). You can sit and say you think hybrids are bad and would bring more cars but there's no evidence of that and it contracts what the manufacturers asked for with the ACO. Sorry to those who don't like the hybrids, that's what big manufacturers want. For small teams, the new P1-P cars are due next year with no hybrid systems.
Racing at this level is about new technology and pushing limits. You won't get that from just putting customer engines in customer chassis.
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They should get rid of these bubble-head LMP1 and reintroduce the GT1 with optional Hybrid-tech, but much more overall-power. At least, 380/390 kph drag fights would be great and are historically an essential part of Le Mans. It would be so awesome to see an Aventador competing a La Ferrari, a 918, maybe a McLaren P1, (I know, it's a very short list...) all of them runed by privateers. The real (!) fast Hypercars, everyone of them pure f*cking eye'n'earp*rn, finally brought together on track.
I mean, right now, the LMP1 ARE simply ugly and sounds (whistles) bad. The LMP2 DOES look better AND sound better. Though, they have also a VERY close competition.
The problem here are the politics. Because of a very few guys, who even arent into motorsports, complaining about EVERYTHING. It has to be safer every year, less emissions every year, less loudness every year, slower every year, to get it politically correct & therefore a political reason for being.
I mean, right now, the LMP1 ARE simply ugly and sounds (whistles) bad. The LMP2 DOES look better AND sound better. Though, they have also a VERY close competition.
The problem here are the politics. Because of a very few guys, who even arent into motorsports, complaining about EVERYTHING. It has to be safer every year, less emissions every year, less loudness every year, slower every year, to get it politically correct & therefore a political reason for being.
Just like Group C it got too big and the cars got way to expensive. Now they are around the same price as an F1....
Grand Tourist
Enjoying the beautiful world of Assetto Corsa
Straight line speed is not the issue of the danger, its the cornering speed difference between gt and lmp1. Top speeds of lmp cars are all the same, 325-340kmh, while the hybrids have 500hp more than a non hybrid or lmp2. They all use that for acceleration purpose, and have such immense downforce the top speed at Mulsanne is, compared to the 275kmh
at Porsche curves, unimpressive. Also, if track limits on straights would exist on Le Mans, look at the way that Porsche Hybrid was overtaking two gt's on the straight, and how that lmp2 car caused the Ferrari GT to crash, that would immediately benefit safety on straights. Back in the days of Porsche 917, 375kmh on straights where gt's did 250+ were very normal and not any more dangerous than today. It's just that car cabins then were pulverised when crashing at those speeds as to now we have the monococque protecting the pilots.The speed difference on straights should be higher, as I said before, less aero more top speed so less cornering speed would benefit safety on this track. Its just so unnatural, speed difference is good yet top speeds are being compromised by aero and track layout, but then again cornering speeds are excessively different between lmph and gt. I think the aggressiveness of the lmph class, in grip ability and acceleration, is feeding the aggressive approach of pilots towards gt's. Look at McNish's crash, the Toyota at the end of Mulsanne straight vs Ferrai gt, Webber in the Porsche vs Ferrari gt at Interlagos?( not sure, it was Brazil). All cornering incidents. Why are they all driving like madmen hotlapping 24H? There is no patience anymore, endurance is to have patience too, to overtake at the right time and not like "out of the way gt, I need to gain 0.55sec the next 23 laps so I can justify my calculated whatever the heck it is they calculate. You say an endurance race has its victims, of course, but the way those lmp's race is just soooooo fanatic, aggressive, I am the king mentality....they just race as sprint cars, designed as hotlap cars, I do not recognize any endurance approach with these cars. A lot less aero forces and higher top speed would make so much more sense, and why, with 3 cars per team, don't they try different approaches for each team? It's all for the same manufacturor anyway, why not 1 team full aero, another full speed and 1 in between? That is innovative too in a simple way. I am surprised by the lack of creative thinking toward approaching endurance races, all focus on technology and depending fully on that. Try sth different, think out of the box, maybe it could work. If it doesnt, well at least you know. But now, all on aero, all on full mentality from start, no room for patience, attack attack attack.....has it always been like this? I think, I say think, not , but maybe thats just interpretation of the nostalgic past interfering with the truth.
I I too think hybrids should stay, but like I said before, lesser aero, more top speed, more visibility and esthetic "simple" designs would maybe, I say maybe, add to the Le Mans experience for everyone and improve reliability, reduce costs and improve safety on the track. The chicanes on the straight, for me, as a nostalgic feeling, should be removed, but for the current gt's is not that desired too of course. That is just a personal wish(ful thinking), nothing wrong with that.
How do you see this, would a different approach using the same technology benefit the overall results of lmph cars and contribute to the Le Mans experience? Meaning less is more and lets give the spectator some nicer looking cars to appreciate the next 24H he pays at least €100 for? You HAVE to admit just a little bit, besides the performance of the lmph cars, there is just NOTHING to it to love about it. They are ugly mean bastards pushing everyone aside on the playgrounds.
EDIT : THE STATEMENT ABOUT CHICANES INTRODUCED WHEN MERC's FLEW OFF IS WRONG. ALREADY CHICANES ON THE TRACK WHEN THAT HAPPENED. I removed the statement. Really surprised actually, was convinced that was the reason they introduced chicanes.
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The MGU is from the hybrid unit xD. 2 MGU, 1 clutch, 1 oil pressure, and the ByKolles IDK.
Look at the LMP2. Very reliable engines. Not supercomplex engines.
You forgot to mention "slower" and "less efficient".
