LMP1 has always been a low volume, Factory backed, big bucks effort. Given that Both Porsche and Audi are owned by the same parent company (VW Group), That parent company likely didn't need to see two of their top brands pitted against each other in the same class. VW Group Executive Management are really the ones who pulled the plug on the Audi Works Group, as Audi has dominated the LMP1 Class, for years and it stands to reason that they wanted Porsche to rise up. When the LMP1 Class left The American Le Mans Series after the merger with the Rolex Sports Car Series created what ultimately became the Weathertech Sportscar Series, the plug was pulled on LMP1 class, for all manufacturers. It would be a sad day for the entire LMP1 class to be pulled from WEC and Le Mans, but given Toyota's problems between last year and this year and the low volume of manufacturers participating in LMP1 Class, it's entirely possible that the LMP1 Class will go away. It happened to both the GT1 and GT2 Classes. We'll just have to wait and see. I hope LMP1 remains, but it could happen.
Have Your Say: Has LMP1 Prototype Racing Had Its Day?
- Thread starter Paul Jeffrey
- Start date
In one way LMP1 and the various 'Level 1' categories have been far more effective in advancing automotive technology than Formula 1, but at great expense.
I'm impressed with the sheer performance in the class, but I expect that it will become irrelevant if and when it becomes a single manufacturer competition.
As a 'Racer' I'd warm to 24 hours of LMP2 and GT racing, for me the years between 1995 and 2000 were among the most interesting and competitive Le Mans, as were the Group C years from 1983 through to 1990, when the major manufacturers supplied privateers with competitive machinery.
If Toyota pull off a win this year I expect they will depart, leaving us with a single manufacturer in LMP1 for the foreseeable future, a certain kiss of death for LMP1.
If we reflect on the 24 hours history it has generally been supported by privateers with sporadic and or declining numbers of manufacturer participation.
Nothing new today to be frank.
I'm impressed with the sheer performance in the class, but I expect that it will become irrelevant if and when it becomes a single manufacturer competition.
As a 'Racer' I'd warm to 24 hours of LMP2 and GT racing, for me the years between 1995 and 2000 were among the most interesting and competitive Le Mans, as were the Group C years from 1983 through to 1990, when the major manufacturers supplied privateers with competitive machinery.
If Toyota pull off a win this year I expect they will depart, leaving us with a single manufacturer in LMP1 for the foreseeable future, a certain kiss of death for LMP1.
If we reflect on the 24 hours history it has generally been supported by privateers with sporadic and or declining numbers of manufacturer participation.
Nothing new today to be frank.
Buttugly cars imo. I would be glad to see them go. The times of the gt1 in the 90's. Those were beautiful cars.
Group C worked better due to the fact that people could buy cars like the Porsche 962 & race them against the big factory teams , that fact alone made sure that the top class in prototypes was filled out.
all the other factory teams like Toyota , Mazda , where works teams only for the larger put I seem to remember.
These days the big teams no long build or even sell their cars on to private owners , this may be a cost thing , however that is why LMP 2 is working better than LMP 1.
Private team where always the back bone of GT & LMP racing , back in the old days we had several decades of private entry's running customer spec prototypes in the top classes.
Porsche for one gained major PR from that sort of deal 6 several wins to boot when the factory team entries hit trouble.
The FIA & ACO can not afford to drop Hybrid power units or that would see no major factory teams racing , that is the way development is moving in the auto industry & not back to Petrol only cars.
The downside is Hybrid tech is to costly & complex for most private teams to find budget for , with out it they can never hope to win a race.
Its was the same at the start of the Turbo Era only the tech was not that complex but was still very costly to find a budget for.
A solution is not simple here, Like we have seen in F1 they could ask the Major marks to supply customer engines to private teams, though that fills the grid out they have very little chance of winning.
Ban prototypes go back to GTR & GT like we had in the late 90's & 20's , but that almost killed the sport too, people want the crazy prototypes is it just matter of how to make it work.
Just Like Rallying Group B's Ghost has hung over it ever since its banning & the many rule & format changes since.
Group C ran for a longer time & gave us some wild cars & its Ghost still hangs over Sports cars racing & the Le-mans event like a cloud.
Getting a balance could take some work for LMP 1
Which brand was very dominant in those days? Porsche. Can you remember their add from 1983? "Nobody's perfect"?
Group C was a group with super- or turbocharged engines. Porsche came with the 2.65 liter flat six twin turbo engine. It build and sold that many cars that it dominated the era until these engines were banned and replaced by 3,5l conventional engines. Which were in fact F1 engines. And thus more expensive. Only because of a loophole Mazda could make use of it and win in 1991, which was a transition year. Old spec cars were given penalties in that year. It took only a few years and the Group C died.
The hybrid trash it doesn't work with hot temperatures.
Please, make simpler engines ACO plz!!!
And, too small quantity of brands on LMP1.
I remember for example 2015. With various LMP1 cars.
Or the sweeties 2000.
Please, make simpler engines ACO plz!!!
And, too small quantity of brands on LMP1.
I remember for example 2015. With various LMP1 cars.
Or the sweeties 2000.
They should make a prototype class that is something "born" from GTE cars. You can have all the hybrid stuff you want, but you have to find a way to add it to lets say a Ferrari 488
Grand Tourist
Enjoying the beautiful world of Assetto Corsa
LMPH has just way too much downforce, resulting in a car that is always under huge pressure, combined with immense heating of the tarmac, it is like a "sandwich" between hot surface and hot air. 1000+hp and 900-kg should result in 370+kmh speeds, yet it stops at 325. I am not saying that 325 is slow, but its not logical. My assumption is that a higher top speed, hence lower downforce, higher mount of the car from the surface, will allow the car to cool down on straights and benefit from it. Electronic devices are very prone to heat. Less downforce means lower corner speeds, which would aid safety on track for gt's making it better to anticipate turning in and so on. Percentage wise, lmp2 is far more succesful in terms of finishing the race. I think the lack of complicated technology is the obvious reason for that.
I agree that the hybrids are super impressive, for hotlapping, not for competing. I am convinced lower aero forces and higher car mount will aid cooling and letting the pressure off. If that means lesser power for safety, thats a small price to pay, they are not shy of power anyway. That way non hybrid lmp's will be more competitive too, in cornering, not top speed and acceleration perhaps.
The styling in function of the aero has become too much. Cars are full of holes and twitches and so on. A simpler body design would aid budget savings, car esthetics and the love for a car simply because of its appearance would grow back in the audience. Just look at the Toyota GT1, McLaren F1 longtail, going back further Ford GT40 and Ferrari 250 GTO.
Another issue with current lmp1 cars is the closed cockpit wich is deeply embedded into the design, making visability very hard onboard. Open cockpits should come back to lmp1, again aero would lose efficiency but heating will be less severe, also for the driver. For me, the BMW V12 and Audi R8 are the finest examples of design meets efficiency meets driver's needs of visibilaty. V12's are beasts, I would vote yes to get them back, but indeed this huge step back is not what manufacturors want. Hybrids are ok to me, but an urgent compromise of power-aero-design-budget is necessary to keep the lmph division competitive and a REAL class. I see no quarrels in a seperate lmph-lmp1 division, when each class can have a minimum of 10 teams with a maximum of 2 cars/team. The field of Le Mans is big enough to allow 80+ cars on track I think. More traffic is also aiding more cautiosness for top class pilots ( the manoevres I saw today by the lmph Porsche overtaking at Mulsanne straight are pretty off limits, or should be). So a lesser aggressive, nicer and attractive design form of hybrids but some top speed gain maybe imho could help the series overall, or at least the 24H of Le Mans.
I agree that the hybrids are super impressive, for hotlapping, not for competing. I am convinced lower aero forces and higher car mount will aid cooling and letting the pressure off. If that means lesser power for safety, thats a small price to pay, they are not shy of power anyway. That way non hybrid lmp's will be more competitive too, in cornering, not top speed and acceleration perhaps.
The styling in function of the aero has become too much. Cars are full of holes and twitches and so on. A simpler body design would aid budget savings, car esthetics and the love for a car simply because of its appearance would grow back in the audience. Just look at the Toyota GT1, McLaren F1 longtail, going back further Ford GT40 and Ferrari 250 GTO.
Another issue with current lmp1 cars is the closed cockpit wich is deeply embedded into the design, making visability very hard onboard. Open cockpits should come back to lmp1, again aero would lose efficiency but heating will be less severe, also for the driver. For me, the BMW V12 and Audi R8 are the finest examples of design meets efficiency meets driver's needs of visibilaty. V12's are beasts, I would vote yes to get them back, but indeed this huge step back is not what manufacturors want. Hybrids are ok to me, but an urgent compromise of power-aero-design-budget is necessary to keep the lmph division competitive and a REAL class. I see no quarrels in a seperate lmph-lmp1 division, when each class can have a minimum of 10 teams with a maximum of 2 cars/team. The field of Le Mans is big enough to allow 80+ cars on track I think. More traffic is also aiding more cautiosness for top class pilots ( the manoevres I saw today by the lmph Porsche overtaking at Mulsanne straight are pretty off limits, or should be). So a lesser aggressive, nicer and attractive design form of hybrids but some top speed gain maybe imho could help the series overall, or at least the 24H of Le Mans.
I think if the rumors are correct and Porsche is leaving then LMP1 is dead and I could really care less. Le Mans is really the only race i ever watch that has them in it (I dont follow WEC) and this year was just a disaster. No real close fights in the class whatsoever and you pretty much just watched to see who was gonna retire next. Extremely boring, a bigger pack of LMP2s and GTs would've made for a better race.
However If I had it my way the new LMP1s would have a budget cap to see who could actually build a car within a budget (sortof). But even then the LMP1 cars wouldn't be much faster than the much cheaper LMP2s.
I think what is eventually gonna happen is what is currently happening with GT racing. GT3 is becoming too expensive and now GT4 is getting more and more support from a wide variety of manufacturers. LMP1 is way too expensive for anybody except factory efforts so LMP2 becomes the new LMP1 class however I would swap the rules to be more like the DPi class and the new batch of LMP3s becomes LMP2. Then we run with that formula for say 6-7 years before that gets too expensive etc.
However If I had it my way the new LMP1s would have a budget cap to see who could actually build a car within a budget (sortof). But even then the LMP1 cars wouldn't be much faster than the much cheaper LMP2s.
I think what is eventually gonna happen is what is currently happening with GT racing. GT3 is becoming too expensive and now GT4 is getting more and more support from a wide variety of manufacturers. LMP1 is way too expensive for anybody except factory efforts so LMP2 becomes the new LMP1 class however I would swap the rules to be more like the DPi class and the new batch of LMP3s becomes LMP2. Then we run with that formula for say 6-7 years before that gets too expensive etc.
People declare this race a disaster because of the reliability problems. Then people also say they want to go back to the old days. I don't think people remember the old days very much. When winning by 5-10 laps was normal, reliability was horrendous and garage calls were frequent. Some need to have look at the history of prototype racing - especially through the 90s. And late 90s GT1s? Sure, lets bring those back...for 2 years before the budgets spiral and everyone leaves.
We could add more LMP2s...but some of them were already out of their depth. And there aren't many more GTE cars kicking about. DPi and GT3? There's already too much balance of performance in the GTE class. Let's not add more. It's already out of hand.
We could add more LMP2s...but some of them were already out of their depth. And there aren't many more GTE cars kicking about. DPi and GT3? There's already too much balance of performance in the GTE class. Let's not add more. It's already out of hand.
Group C died when costs got out of hand. I don't see how that would solve anything/
Given that the Toyota is slightly overweight (and even more overweight when they add the AC system), and the Riley LMP2 is overweight, how do you propose lopping off 200kg? Bigger rear wing at Le Mans...so more drag?
1996-1999. Really, closer to 1998-1999 for the good ones. Beautiful cars, but ridiculously expensive and imploded at a record rate. Ended up with extreme road going prototypes, and some cars which didn't even have road cars - the Mercedes CLK LM never ever had a road cars, and raced at Le Mans in 1998. The GTR version, which did have a road car, never raced. So extremely short term, expensive, illegal cars. I love those cars, but it was not a long term solution.
The hybrid failures caused 0 retirements. The #2 and #8 had MGU failures, and both were changed and continued. The #7 had a clutch problem and the #1 had an old fashioned engine failure. Maybe this mechanical trash doesn't work with hot temperatures.
If you look at all motor sports, I will give examples, something had to give eventually. To us, the "fans" it's a shame, but back in the days, 2000 I guess, was the expense pinnacle. £10 Million pound budget (reported ) for the 3 x Ford Mondeos in 2000, that's ridiculous.
BTCC - Adapted to the NGTC version, more cost effective, cheaper to run, cross manufacturer parts
WTCC - Falling numbers all the time, due to costs, see below.
TCR - Introduced as a cost effective for the failing WTCC
F1 - So many damn rule changes, hard to keep up.
Formula F4 - Finally a positive step by the FIA to introduce cost effective racing for the up and coming F1 drivers.
Somebody mentioned Formula E, and they are right, it is heading in that direction, and it will only be a matter of time ( and technology advances ) that we will only here the raw power of a V6, V8, V10 or V12 via youtube
BTCC - Adapted to the NGTC version, more cost effective, cheaper to run, cross manufacturer parts
WTCC - Falling numbers all the time, due to costs, see below.
TCR - Introduced as a cost effective for the failing WTCC
F1 - So many damn rule changes, hard to keep up.
Formula F4 - Finally a positive step by the FIA to introduce cost effective racing for the up and coming F1 drivers.
Somebody mentioned Formula E, and they are right, it is heading in that direction, and it will only be a matter of time ( and technology advances ) that we will only here the raw power of a V6, V8, V10 or V12 via youtube
Grand Tourist
Enjoying the beautiful world of Assetto Corsa
Maybe the extra power of the electric motor pushes the hardware to beyond its limits in these heated temps? You have to admit, 4 out 5 lmph cars died. That is 80%. Lmp2 had like 1 maybe 2 cars failing. I stick to my theory of too much heated pressure due to massive aero downforce. The pressure is on all the time on these cars, even on straights. These cars need to overperform 24h in a row. Like every lap is a hotlap. The mentality, the philosophy behind current lmph cars performance is too aggressive. I agree with you going back to gt1 or group c is not the right way, one can even say lmph is on the exact same exit strategy.
LMP2 is a customer program and the product has to be reliable to sell it. LMP1s don't have to be, and run to far more extremes.
Remember that reliability is actually better than it ever has been. We say 4 out of 5 LMP1s died, but back in the day most cars died. The trick is to get them back to the pits for repairs. The 1, 7 and 9 all had issues at turn 1, which is why they couldn't get back. If those issues happened in the Porsche Curves, we'd have had 4-5 LMP1s finish.
Le Mans is MEANT to be a test of endurance. Too hot, too long, too fast, etc etc. That's the point. If you want cars well within their operational limits, WTCC is available at any time.
IMHO, motor sport now is no longer about innovation end technology as it was before, it's just about merely money (to get to the pocket of the organizers and theirs "accomplices", including media).
Remember the crazy days of formula 1 with huge rearwing, two small front wheels, stuff like that, engineers can experiment things, try new ways, discover innovations without worrying (to much ?) about money. This was the days of "any means necessary" and "who dare wins".
Now, the people who owns all the components of motor sports are greedy investors who only care about getting more and more money, even if it lead to boring events (formula 1 starting from the late 90s). Companies needs results, people are afraid to make a bet of something which could not work so they all copy on each other winning solutions. This behaviour of cowardliness and lack of imagination has just slow progress significantly. And when some really dare to go to a brand new path and win, many followers copy the improvement. For instance : Audi was successful with Diesel engines, all LMP1 builders get to diesel, Hybrid comes and win, the story repeat itself.
Despite Mazda take advantages of a "loophole(s) "in ACO regulations in 1991, its Wankel engine was quite an achievement considering how few cars have been made using such kind of engines which could have been an alternative to the typical piston/valve/cylinder, in many term (reliability, efficiency, longevity or more) but who knows ?
Motor sports have to get back to its roots, with more drivers and less engineers and no profit makers around.
Remember the crazy days of formula 1 with huge rearwing, two small front wheels, stuff like that, engineers can experiment things, try new ways, discover innovations without worrying (to much ?) about money. This was the days of "any means necessary" and "who dare wins".
Now, the people who owns all the components of motor sports are greedy investors who only care about getting more and more money, even if it lead to boring events (formula 1 starting from the late 90s). Companies needs results, people are afraid to make a bet of something which could not work so they all copy on each other winning solutions. This behaviour of cowardliness and lack of imagination has just slow progress significantly. And when some really dare to go to a brand new path and win, many followers copy the improvement. For instance : Audi was successful with Diesel engines, all LMP1 builders get to diesel, Hybrid comes and win, the story repeat itself.
Despite Mazda take advantages of a "loophole(s) "in ACO regulations in 1991, its Wankel engine was quite an achievement considering how few cars have been made using such kind of engines which could have been an alternative to the typical piston/valve/cylinder, in many term (reliability, efficiency, longevity or more) but who knows ?
Motor sports have to get back to its roots, with more drivers and less engineers and no profit makers around
.Less engineers. So we're all for slower but more dangerous cars then? Who is going to actually build the cars?
Motorsport is at its roots. Cars we love and adore and look at with rose tinted glasses were born out of business decisions. The Ford GT40 is one of the all time great racing cars, and possibly the best example of a business decision. That car was all about the Ford Ferrari deal falling through and Ford wanting to prove they were the best.
Or how about the Lotus 49? Has almost cult status, similar to the Ford GT40. One of the first cars to carry sponsorship. Very corporate decision that one.
Porsche 917? Business decision that was coupled with Porsches first proper customer car program (selling the old chassis to customers). Developed and headed by an engineer turned businessman. In 1969.
Grass roots racing still exists. Low budget racing still exists. Racing for enthusiastic amateurs still exits. Go watch BTCC and all the support events, or VLN and look at the lower classes, or Creventic at most of the classes, or even LMP2 and GTE-Am at Le Mans. Still plenty of that. But it's no more corporate than it's ever been - people just like to remember the past differently.
Motorsport is at its roots. Cars we love and adore and look at with rose tinted glasses were born out of business decisions. The Ford GT40 is one of the all time great racing cars, and possibly the best example of a business decision. That car was all about the Ford Ferrari deal falling through and Ford wanting to prove they were the best.
Or how about the Lotus 49? Has almost cult status, similar to the Ford GT40. One of the first cars to carry sponsorship. Very corporate decision that one.
Porsche 917? Business decision that was coupled with Porsches first proper customer car program (selling the old chassis to customers). Developed and headed by an engineer turned businessman. In 1969.
Grass roots racing still exists. Low budget racing still exists. Racing for enthusiastic amateurs still exits. Go watch BTCC and all the support events, or VLN and look at the lower classes, or Creventic at most of the classes, or even LMP2 and GTE-Am at Le Mans. Still plenty of that. But it's no more corporate than it's ever been - people just like to remember the past differently.
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The regulations seem to want to direct innovation, not encourage it. Your car must be plug in electric! It must leave the pits under electric only and cross the finish line under electric only! Really? Why? Is the ACO secretly trying to be sure an LMP2 wins Le Mans? If the greatest automotive engineers of Japan and Germany can't make a bullet-proof LMP1 under the current regs over the past 5 years, I'm pretty sure they're not going to nail the 2020 version that calls for more forced innovation. Despite what I assume are the personal beliefs amongst the ACO governors regarding emissions, they seem to be inadvertently making the case that petrol engines are reliable and inexpensive.
If Porsche leaves, and I suspect they might, then Toyota would have no reason to be a class of one. So LMP1H has certainly had its day, but if they ever made room for a less restrictive factory LMP1 category, it could come back. The door is certainly open for IMSA to make a move to garner a top tier factory class for their 2020 season. In the meantime it will be interesting to see how the WEC spins the fiasco in France to pump up the Nurburgring race. Hopefully the current field can regroup to compete for a 6 hour race now that the signature endurance event has come and gone.
If Porsche leaves, and I suspect they might, then Toyota would have no reason to be a class of one. So LMP1H has certainly had its day, but if they ever made room for a less restrictive factory LMP1 category, it could come back. The door is certainly open for IMSA to make a move to garner a top tier factory class for their 2020 season. In the meantime it will be interesting to see how the WEC spins the fiasco in France to pump up the Nurburgring race. Hopefully the current field can regroup to compete for a 6 hour race now that the signature endurance event has come and gone.
So we have 1 year of LMP1 reliability problems and the world is ending and they can't possibly make a car reliable again? Anyone remember when the McLaren F1 beat all the prototypes in 1995? Or how about 1998, when the leader spent over an hour in the pits and won? LMPs never recovered from such a thing, and IIRC, the world actually ended too, and Le Mans was declared a fiasco and nobody ever came back to France.
It's a bit mad to suggest these regulations do not encourage innovation, and then suggest IMSA top class for 2020, given the IMSA class is just some bodywork on an LMP2 car, and to add insult to injury they are then all performance balanced. How is that innovation?
The level of melodramatic, uniformed drama on the internet because some LMPs broke down is out of control. Jesus christ.
It's a bit mad to suggest these regulations do not encourage innovation, and then suggest IMSA top class for 2020, given the IMSA class is just some bodywork on an LMP2 car, and to add insult to injury they are then all performance balanced. How is that innovation?
The level of melodramatic, uniformed drama on the internet because some LMPs broke down is out of control. Jesus christ.
That's just how the whole global warming histeria works. They direct it using government instead of keeping the gov away and let people choose. And it's also the reason I just don't believe it.
Same
happens in racing "We want innovation, but must be done this way, if you do different you can't race"
