Have Your Say - Damage in Sim Racing

[Steve Worrell]

I dont get why people need to take erything as black and white lol
It's up to you what get repaired. Devs usually give options, isn't it?! Expand the idea mate, think...
Damage repair animation does not need to repair a whole engine in 60 seconds, what game will repair engine in race anyway? They all DNF you, isn't it?
While in practice if you damage your car it should take just as long to repair it and the real time it takes to change an engine (also an option in case people just want to hit Esc and get new stuff)
Number of spare chassis should be limited (# option)
Number of engines should be limited (# option)
Trackside action is important. I'd like to after watching a Petit Le Mans get into a sim and have that experience simulated. None of them do it now, absolutely none. They all lack immersion on the environment aspect. They are all just driving sims now (and still fail on it in one way or another)
Like I said expand the idea. Geez.

I'm sorry pal I still don't know what you mean by damage repair animation. Do you mean an animated pit crew?

As for repairing engines. At the moment almost all sims allow you to repair your engine during a stop. It usually is represented by a timer counting down. For me that is unrealistic.

I love the idea of limited number of chassis and engines though.

 

[Steve Worrell]

I would like to see it implemented as an adjustable slider, or maybe coded in to the harder difficulty modes in single player for the titles that work that way. In multiplayer it could be implemented like a server option so that there is the opportunity for a super serious league organiser to run a season as hardcore as possible whilst enabling the creator of a more relaxed race to 'tone it back' a bit.

It already exists right? Almost all sims have a damage slider. For me this would basically mean when you dial it up to 100% that is as realistic as possible. Currently 100% damage means you might see some scratches on your car and it might drift to the left after hitting a wall at 100mph.

I completely agree it should be an option though. A sensitive damage model would put off some casual players.

Interestingly, the only Sim I can think off that doesn't have a damage slider is RaceRoom and that is the sim I play the least. The damage model in that is shocking.

 

[Charmin]

Well, you already have it. Beam NG. Google it.
I believe picture from opening post is from it too...

Your right, i have it also. But i would like to have it like that in Assetto Corsa for example.

 

[apex11]

I'm less bothered with damage compared to tyres. I was thinking the other day in real racing / track days hell even road cars tyres are such an integral part of how the car works and its relationship with putting down its power and handling.
Why does no sim place importance on tyres?
This is the issue where some people think race cars simply skid around like on ice.
You could even have a situation where tyres are in DLC as in like track days you have to pay for better tyres / grip etc.
Its all about the tyres and we seem to have cars and a tyre model but never a big mention about the tyres and info on how tyres work and how important they really are, if we did people would respect more actual level of grip good tyres give.
The best racing in the world on wrong or bad tyres will be totally borked, yet we just assume that dev are molding the tyres for the sim car correctly..

 

[Rastas]

rFactor1,extreme vert deformation

 

[FeltHat]

Sure, as long as we dont race in Macau
On more serious side, rally and chases in beamng are super thrilling, im all for it (well maybe 50% for our club )

When i was lil kiddo i played a lot of carmageddon, grid, toca etc, recently wreckfest and beamng, damage

 

[ronniej]

@VernWozza wrote to me last week asking to know the community opinion of damage in sim racing and I personally think it a very interesting point. You can read the message below:

"At the moment it is somehow accepted that in race sims cars can hit the wall at 150mph and continue the race..."

I don't agree with this either

For me personally I would love to see race ending damage more in line with the real world.

+1

 

[Tarmac Terrorist]

Damage is very important to me, this is why i was really looking forward to GTR3 as GTR2 did it so well, but it looks like we'll never see that. Anyway Driving in GTR2 against the AI or online with the Historic GT Crowd in Rfactor is where I experience it best. If im racing along and I can see that someone has a small dent in a fender I think, "whats happened there?" and have a chat about it after race or go back and watch the replay, this just makes things more interesting, especially if someone clangs a barrier at high speed, flips the car and bits come off then it looks great and I know thats one less person in the race, cause in those sims (mods) thats game over. Maybe if two of you get a bit too close and do alot of wheel rubbing you get a puncture and have to limp back to the pits for repairs. Also, just knowing that kind of damage is there means you race more carefully, and dont usually actually see alot of damage in the race because of this, but if something does happen at least you can see it. Like if im racing AI in GTR2 and i come up behind someone with cracks all over the bumpers or dents I then know to avoid them as they aint driving too good, or even more importantly, if i see a car with a splitter or spoiler knocked off, I know that at the next corner I can happily take the inside line and pass, because I know they'll never make it round the corner faster than me. To put it simply, i want a sim to be as real as possible in every way! Racing is a game, just like football or snooker, so why take away important elements of the game so its less involving and less interesting. This is why i constantly go back to GTR2, cause for all the things it doesnt get quite right, it does everything reasonably well, rather than just being good at one thing, but rubbish at everything else. Whats the point of being able to drive a car straight into a wall at 30mph and it still drives! BTW Here's a little video of the PCC mod for Rfactor after i had mucked around with the damage files

 

[Tarmac Terrorist]

P.S. Richard Burns Rally is another great title for damage in terms of visual and physical representation! On that note, hardly any games at all will knacker the underside, suspension, chassis or what ever if they jump and land too hard!

 

[Steve Worrell]

Damage is very important to me, this is why i was really looking forward to GTR3 as GTR2 did it so well, but it looks like we'll never see that. Anyway Driving in GTR2 against the AI or online with the Historic GT Crowd in Rfactor is where I experience it best. If im racing along and I can see that someone has a small dent in a fender I think, "whats happened there?" and have a chat about it after race or go back and watch the replay, this just makes things more interesting, especially if someone clangs a barrier at high speed, flips the car and bits come off then it looks great and I know thats one less person in the race, cause in those sims (mods) thats game over. Maybe if two of you get a bit too close and do alot of wheel rubbing you get a puncture and have to limp back to the pits for repairs. Also, just knowing that kind of damage is there means you race more carefully, and dont usually actually see alot of damage in the race because of this, but if something does happen at least you can see it. Like if im racing AI in GTR2 and i come up behind someone with cracks all over the bumpers or dents I then know to avoid them as they aint driving too good, or even more importantly, if i see a car with a splitter or spoiler knocked off, I know that at the next corner I can happily take the inside line and pass, because I know they'll never make it round the corner faster than me. To put it simply, i want a sim to be as real as possible in every way! Racing is a game, just like football or snooker, so why take away important elements of the game so its less involving and less interesting. This is why i constantly go back to GTR2, cause for all the things it doesnt get quite right, it does everything reasonably well, rather than just being good at one thing, but rubbish at everything else. Whats the point of being able to drive a car straight into a wall at 30mph and it still drives! BTW Here's a little video of the PCC mod for Rfactor after i had mucked around with the damage files

This is exactly how I feel!

 

[OzBoz]

I would absolutely love a realistic damage model but I think the collision model should be at least really good before thinking about damage. I play AC most of the time and I really hate it's terribly collision model. You have to drive so careful because one little touch makes another car spin. Far from realistic and it prevents close racing because you don't want to ruin people's race. For that matter Project Cars 2 is much more fun actually.

Not sure if it ever will get better in AC and think I'll have to live with it for now next to the dry roads and the game engine with only supports one light (the sun).

 

[Ghoults]

I think damage is a bit like rain. When you say the word everybody thinks about the extreme condition. But what actually matters most is the smaller nuances. Driving in the rain is not about having the water rain so hard that you'd need a periscope. Just like damage is not about total carnage and the car being squashed into a raisin.

It is the transitions which matter because those are the conditions you have to drive in 90% of the time. When you have little bit of damage so you lost a front winglet on your front in a car, you went wide and lost some parts on the floor of the car or even when you drive an open wheel car and can visually see the tire wear. Those are the killer features of damage. Scratches and dents are important as well because they are visual clues about cars around you. If you can see the car behind you has damage to his front aero you know he will have understeer on some parts of the track. Similarly if you catch a slower car and see his rear wing is broken or missing you know he is going to be slow.

These smaller features can add a lot of depth to the game. For example if you drive over a part or debris you risk a tire cut or other damage to your car. Or if you accelerate too hard on kerbs you may break your driveshafts. You'd even have dampers overheating. And as controversial it is: random damages (battery dies, connector becomes loose, engine failure, gearbox failure etc..). Or if you have a part hanging on your car and you get a black flag because of it (because when it comes loose it can hurt other drivers). Or how you can enter pits and fix stuff. Change wings or adjust other bits to compensate. I'd love if a car could come out from pits fully taped up. You'd know that car has been in accident. Even as a purely visual effect it would add depth to the game.

Having the car totally die in big impacts is mostly a visual effect. It can make a game like beamng work as a crashing game because that is its specialty. But in a racing sim that is just total overkill. Cars are barely worth driving if you have little bit of toe out in the rear because the cars become multiple seconds slower per lap and very difficult to drive. Going above and beyond that only adds to the spectacle of the crash itself. For driving it does nothing because your car is basically dead anyway.

When it comes to driving it is those small details that matter. The small things won't end your race but add depth to the experience. The big things just make crashes look better.

 

[Kevin Bradley]

It already exists right? Almost all sims have a damage slider. For me this would basically mean when you dial it up to 100% that is as realistic as possible. Currently 100% damage means you might see some scratches on your car and it might drift to the left after hitting a wall at 100mph.

Yes, that's really what I'm trying to say. I would like to see damage options in all the sims where 100% damage = race ending event if you smack a wall.

I don't want to thump the barrier at Macau or Monaco and be able to continue driving as if nothing had happened (and to be honest, I don't want to see fellow racers do the same in multiplayer races i'm participating in either).

I know I fall into the category of sim racers that want everything as real as possible and I also appreciate others aren't so fussed and would prefer other features improved. It must be really tough for the devs to please everyone with stuff like this

 

[Cote Dazur]

"its a racing simulator, not a crash simulator", resume my thought on the subject pretty well.

The racing games aiming at being SIM should concentrate on developing a convincing driving experience on dry tarmac first and foremost. Once that goal achieved, being the core of any SIM, then if they want to spend ressources on fluff, like rain, damage etc..., knock yourself off.
Interesting to notice that the games who cannot get the driving right will also be the ones trying to make the fluff suddenly important.

 

[delpinsky]

Soft body deformation, pieces of the chassis waving around before coming out and flying away. The more realism the better, during crashes against other cars or against tyre-walls.
Tyre-walls, yes! They should be more flexible, like it is in real life, when you hit them at high speed. They should bounce at least a bit if they are chained or show tyres flying aways if they are not tied together. I remember GRID, for example, at it was amaing on this side.

Woow!

 

[SteffenLS]

I would like to see more realistic damage in simulations.
I don't need to be able to see it, but the physical part I would like to have.

 

[Terry Rock]

"Ah!... you opened the bag now."
Seriously though...in terms of damage, I could care less about deformed body panels.
I never go back and look at a replay stating "That broken fender/hood/dented roof-line, etc.. looks really cool."
If it can be properly implemented, I'd rather see them concentrate on things like internal engine damage which directly affects power output.
Race ending engine, suspension and transmission failures for over-driving the car would be more important.
To that end, I understand limitations in simulation.
It's just like the guys 'beating the door down' for rain in every simulator on the market, when most developers can barely model proper dry physics.
Rain drops on a windshield so you can say 'I'm faster than most in the rain'... without properly modeled aqua-planing, tire slip, lower drag coefficient, etc...would be just a gimmick.

 

[Steve Worrell]

I could care less about deformed body panels.

So you do care?

 

[Lino Carreira]

Live For Speed 13 Years ago had a better system outside of soft body Damage Model Engines ( witch consume way too much CPU ) then any other sim currently in Market.....

The problem as always is Priorities.... for me its the major flaw on Assetto Corsa Online Racing....those pinball accidents, not as much the visual part but the collision and mechanical implications afterwards.... the fact that most systems do not handle collisions properly even make it worst since if you leave the damage at 100% it makes it more unbearable ..... so in the end people tend to dial the servers damage down....

Problem is to make a Sim that handles all different aspects we like properly without needing a Deep Blue to do a race !!!

 

[Steve Worrell]

Live For Speed 13 Years ago had a better system outside of soft body Damage Model Engines ( witch consume way too much CPU ) then any other sim currently in Market.....

The problem as always is Priorities.... for me its the major flaw on Assetto Corsa Online Racing....those pinball accidents, not as much the visual part but the collision and mechanical implications afterwards.... the fact that most systems do not handle collisions properly even make it worst since if you leave the damage at 100% it makes it more unbearable ..... so in the end people tend to dial the servers damage down....

Problem is to make a Sim that handles all different aspects we like properly without needing a Deep Blue to do a race !!!

Don't you get a sense of immersion when you are racing though, and isn't that shattered when you see cars collide at hundreds of miles an hour and they just bounce around looking as pristine as they did before the race?

I'm not saying there should be a soft body model implemented in to sims (although I do believe it will happen one day and is just a matter of time) but just some kind of semi realistic visual representation of what has been damaged would be great.