AC GT3 @ Spa - Sunday 3rd January 2021

[Chris Down]

I think you could borrow Ernie's milk float & still win the race , but I do think it's important to be honest about the performance of the 650s. It dominated the grid last Sunday, & it will do the same again @ Brands Hatch. That's not about getting used to a car.

Hmm, the 650s is probably the best at Brands because of the short straights and tight high speed corners, but at Spa it's quite a long way off the 488 in race pace (I can't say for certain about the R8, but I suspect it's true based on the track profile). Case in point: I have 3000 hours in the 650s, and about 20 in the 488, but I can still lap about 0.3s quicker per lap in race pace in the 488 at Spa. I'm sure someone more experienced could do even better in the 488 there.

I mostly just don't think it's true: the 650s is a great car for hotlapping, but the peak performance in race pace is really only as good as everything else at Spa, or marginally worse. The reason there's 650s' galore at the front in this race is because 50% of the grid chose it for some reason, but it would be the same if 50% of the grid went for the 488

 

[Bertje]

I think not only the car matters, but also the setup does. If you have a car well suited for the track, let's say the lambo on monza, you will still need to have a good setup to be able to put down competitive times. A guy in a Z4 or 650S with a good setup will most likely be quicker if the driving skill is the same. The setup of a car is hugely influential on the pace. I find that most of the times the faster setups are harder to drive because they are a bit more twitchy and unstable.

To me it seems that you want to have a good trade off between the raw speed and the drivability of the car. Especially if you want to be quick for a full hour without any mistakes. Also note that the basic setups in AC are most often very slow.

For this race I just copied a setup from a random guy on youtube and learnt to drive with that setup which worked out really well. I do not have the time to practice a lot for races, so making my own custom setup is not a viable option within the time I have.

 

[Chris Down]

I think not only the car matters, but also the setup does. If you have a car well suited for the track, let's say the lambo on monza, you will still need to have a good setup to be able to put down competitive times. A guy in a Z4 or 650S with a good setup will most likely be quicker if the driving skill is the same. The setup of a car is hugely influential on the pace. I find that most of the times the faster setups are harder to drive because they are a bit more twitchy and unstable.

To me it seems that you want to have a good trade off between the raw speed and the drivability of the car. Especially if you want to be quick for a full hour without any mistakes. Also note that the basic setups in AC are most often very slow.

For this race I just copied a setup from a random guy on youtube and learnt to drive with that setup which worked out really well. I do not have the time to practice a lot for races, so making my own custom setup is not a viable option within the time I have.

Agreed, but to caution the midpack and back folks -- the difference between a mediocre and great setup is usually only a few tenths a lap, so it's not going to magically get you seconds and seconds That's just practice.

 

[HF2000]

You should not give up on the 911, it is a quick car, you can competively run mediums, uses least fuel, very very good car. It teaches you a lot about how to get good pace out of a car.
I still think, if mastered, it is the quickest overall, just difficult, but that means you are learning how to drive, not like me relying of big dobbs of torque to get an advantage.

I agree. When I started racing with you guys I always used the 911 because I set my fastest lap times with it. But it has a nasty understeer to oversteer characteristic that made me go off track at least once during the race. So now I'm driving a slower but more forgiven car (but still going off track usually).

 

[Bertje]

Agreed, but to caution the midpack and back folks -- the difference between a mediocre and great setup is usually only a few tenths a lap, so it's not going to magically get you seconds and seconds That's just practice.

If you get the driving style for a specific setup right, it might make a larger difference than a few tenths in my experience. But I mainly meant that the level of comfort and confidence with the car/setup is important. If you are confident with a car, you can push it a bit harder during the race. And if you take a few tenths 26 laps that can quickly become more than 5 seconds over the race. Also if you do not crash at all because the setup is stable, you also shave off a lot if time

 

[GeekyDeaks]

I agree. When I started racing with you guys I always used the 911 because I set my fastest lap times with it. But it has a nasty understeer to oversteer characteristic that made me go off track at least once during the race. So now I'm driving a slower but more forgiven car (but still going off track usually).

You drive the 488 right Han? It's interesting that you find it more forgiving than the 911 as I have found it the opposite way around and struggle to keep the rear in check with the 488. I'm guessing driving style is at play?

EDIT: I do find the 911 very nervous when trail braking though... is that what you mean about the understeer to oversteer?

 

[HF2000]

Agreed, but to caution the midpack and back folks -- the difference between a mediocre and great setup is usually only a few tenths a lap, so it's not going to magically get you seconds and seconds That's just practice.

At Spa topspeed is important (on Monza even more). So I was interested in the top speed of the GT3's and I've tried them on LeMans no chicanes (longest straight available). Here I my findings: the first figure is the speed without any front or rear wing, the second is with my setup for Spa.

Audi 313 284
BMW 303 262
Ferrari 314 286
Lamborghini 315 271
McLaren 300 294
Mercedes 315 269
Nissan 304 266
Porsche 314 291

The McLaren has the lowest top speed but it looks like it doesn't loose much speed with aero applied.
Of course there's also the factor of acceleration to take into consideration.

 

[HF2000]

You drive the 488 right Han? It's interesting that you find it more forgiving than the 911 as I have found it the opposite way around and struggle to keep the rear in check with the 488. I'm guessing driving style is at play?

EDIT: I do find the 911 very nervous when trail braking though... is that what you mean about the understeer to oversteer?

Yes the 488 is sometimes tricky but most of the times I can correct it at the cost of speed. What I mean is that if you have understeer with the 911 and you try to correct it with lifting or braking the 911 goes almost immediately into oversteer and will spin if you aren't fast enough to correct it.

 

[pattikins]

At Spa topspeed is important (on Monza even more). So I was interested in the top speed of the GT3's and I've tried them on LeMans no chicanes (longest straight available). Here I my findings: the first figure is the speed without any front or rear wing, the second is with my setup for Spa.

Audi 313 284
BMW 303 262
Ferrari 314 286
Lamborghini 315 271
McLaren 300 294
Mercedes 315 269
Nissan 304 266
Porsche 314 291

The McLaren has the lowest top speed but it looks like it doesn't loose much speed with aero applied.
Of course there's also the factor of acceleration to take into consideration.

I don't see the SCG on the list

 

[Kek700]

He has a point, the SCG is the quickest, the GTR loses out on very long straights, it has brick aero, but good on circuits like Silverstone.

 

[pattikins]

He has a point, the SCG is the quickest, the GTR loses out on very long straights, it has brick aero, but good on circuits like Silverstone.

I've just tested the SCG:
312.2 305.7

Brexit conversion
SCG 194 190 (default... with 2 rear wing... 194... same as no wing)
Audi 194.4 176.4
BMW 188.2 162.7
Ferrari 195.1 177.7
Lamborghini 195.7 168.3
McLaren 186.4 182.6
Mercedes 195.7 167.1
Nissan 188.8 165.2
Porsche 195.1 180.8

​

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[Chris Down]

At Spa topspeed is important (on Monza even more). So I was interested in the top speed of the GT3's and I've tried them on LeMans no chicanes (longest straight available). Here I my findings: the first figure is the speed without any front or rear wing, the second is with my setup for Spa.

Audi 313 284
BMW 303 262
Ferrari 314 286
Lamborghini 315 271
McLaren 300 294
Mercedes 315 269
Nissan 304 266
Porsche 314 291

The McLaren has the lowest top speed but it looks like it doesn't loose much speed with aero applied.
Of course there's also the factor of acceleration to take into consideration.

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head with "acceleration", but even more important for race pace and defending positions is torque out of the corners. In that respect, the Nissan is absolutely crazy, so it's really good to defend with. Attacking with it is a lot harder though because it's so wide and understeery.

Comparing just my own speeds at the end of the Kemmel straight in the 488 vs the 650s in race trim, I reach 270kph in both of them, but the rate of acceleration down the straight is lower in the McLaren during the early phase, which is why it gets eaten up so easily during battling.

My opinion of both cars, with some thoughts on things applicable to race pace:

	488	650s
Acceleration	Pretty good, but also not the best. Not as easily eaten up on corner exit by the Nissan as the 650s, at least. Possible, but not easy to slipstream a GT-R. Loses out a bit when approaching top speed.	Probably the worst in GT3. Eaten up by just about everyone, except for the SCG. Nigh impossible to slipstream a GT-R. Sustains it well up to top speed though.
Top speed	Fine, although nothing to write home about compared to the Lambo.	Ditto.
Braking	Pretty good, although not as good as the 650s. Responds well to aggressive downshifting.	One of the best in terms of control and deceleration, although the BMW feels marginally better to me.
Tyre heating	Easy on the tyres, but pretty easy to manage/tune the tyre heating due to the neutral handling.	Harder to manage tyre heating since the 650s needs to be a bit oversteery to be fast.
Mid/high speed corners	Pretty good, but definitely second to the 650s.	The best, easily.
Low speed corners	Very good, and perhaps the best, since you can easily manipulate the off-power oversteer. Exits are also great due to the neutral and predictable handling.	Only ok mid-corner, the car can be hard to get to rotate compared to the 488 since most of the oversteer is typically aero-induced. Exits are fine and the RPM is more tolerant than the 488, although nothing to write home about.

 

[HF2000]

And now for something completely different :Crew Chief.

I noticed that CC doesn't give me the correct race position if there's a SCG in front of me (usually @pattikins ). The reason is that CC has designated the SCG to an other class. It can be corrected by removing this from the .json file in the CC directory.

 

[Bertje]

Racing the 650s the most annoying thing is being able to close the gap by a lot in the corners. But when the straight comes, other cars just pull away. And then during braking and cornering you gain again. And you cannot put your car side by side with the other car each corner so even when you might be 0.5s or more a lap quicker you still cannot overtake because of the lack of speed on the straights...

 

[Interslice]

And now for something completely different :Crew Chief.

I noticed that CC doesn't give me the correct race position if there's a SCG in front of me (usually @pattikins ). The reason is that CC has designated the SCG to an other class. It can be corrected by removing this from the .json file in the CC directory.

That a gem of a fix han. I've been waiting for an update to fix it!

My 2 cents on the setups; I've been building my own 488 setups for nearly a year now. I downloaded a 1:15 spa setup from youtube when i first started but found them completely unusable at the time and forgot about it until last week. I went to check the gearing he used and noticed a year later the whole youtube setup is pretty close to the setup i've eventually ended up with! I would now happily use that setup for qualifying. As its a hotlaper setup, there is a few differences in the suspension that make it too sketchy on kerbs to use in the race with pileup avoidance, fuel and worn tyres to consider. So I took just the gearing and stuck with my own.

Long story short.. In hindsight, I would say to lads starting out, any alien setup you download is a ballpark endpoint for your car setup and only usefull as a reference point as you build your own setups from scratch.

 

[Kek700]

I agree,
my personal finding is a "personal" journey. I can now drive an alien setup. unfortunately not at alien pace, that aside.
Setups are just for me, I can make a lot of time with a setup, occasionally pinching some parts of someone else's set up that I find reduces lap times. Then trying to keep the stability I have got, remain in the car.
I am at the moment quite involved with dampers, finding it useful for correcting niggles I find as I go around the whole circuit.

I can easily see that if you drive with the speed of an alien driver, there is not much room left in the setup, then it now comes down to tenths.

Me, not being an alien, I look to optimise the car, I use every setup facility I can to get the car suited to my less than optimal driving ability.
The main problem is time, each circuit throws up so many different parameters, I just do not have the time to correct it all in the setup.

I envy the turn-up driver with ability, that just does his half to one hour practice, "Job done", straight onto or near the front row.

There is so much to learn, difficult finding answers, no group of people to turn to with, what are probably simple questions, that take hours of
continual testing to prove their validity. I am still finding answers now to questions that I had in my head two years ago.

being a thick "O" does not help.

 

[random2k4]

My take on setups is also, that with a good base setup you can definitely gain some time as a beginner.
Last time we drove at Brands Hatch, I did around 1:27 - 1:26 times. Modified the setup quite a bit to fit my personal driving style
and boom 1:25 - 1:24.

Learning from this setup, I have now a couple of parameters that I change on default for the Z4 regardless of the track, which just makes the
car more comfortable to drive. Then I take it from there and make like track specific adjustments. Mostly dampers, aero and suspension.
Cant get my head around gearing at the moment.

But, I dont go for fastest lap times, there are other drivers here. I always try to find a setup that makes the car stable enough for me to not visit the gravel
too much during a one hour race.

 

[doof205]

And now for something completely different :Crew Chief.

I noticed that CC doesn't give me the correct race position if there's a SCG in front of me (usually @pattikins ). The reason is that CC has designated the SCG to an other class. It can be corrected by removing this from the .json file in the CC directory.

There's also an option somewhere in there for something like "Force Single Class". Can't remember the exact terminology but that fixed it for me.

 

[Kek700]

@Chris Down you seem to have returned me to a Nissan.

should be 650S

 

[pattikins]

@Chris Down you seem to have returned me to a Nissan.

should be 650S

You've got the wrong time & place Ernie