It's reverse turn 8. The original turn 8 was made up of multiple smaller corners too. Blame Tavo Hellmund for being so painfully unoriginal that he couldn't help but steal corners from other tracks. The two obvious differences here are that the reverse turn 8 is much easier and that there was much more grass on the left in the original.
Debate: The Rights and Wrongs of the Verstappen Penalty
- Thread starter Paul Jeffrey
- Start date
If you are not capable to respect limits of a track you are not capable to be a pilot and of course an F1 pilot.
If you fill a shop full of attractive, expensive looking things, some peoples' instinct may be to steal them, but that doesn't make it right.
Agree - and I voted that the punishment was correct. But I think it makes no sense to make an area like that that fits a whole car on the inside.
F_B
Premium
You can say about Verstappen what you want and I also don’t like him that much but I think he’s very talented and fast.
Nah, I'm not convinced. He should be beating Ricciardo much more convincingly if he's as talented as people say he is, yet even when his bad luck isn't hurting him the way it has this year he quite simply isn't. He has potential, but I don't see him matching the likes of the current top 3 in the field.
Some very good points here.
A move like the one he made, if the decision is he got it by unfair means, then do whatever you need to do to give the place back. But don't penalise with points on the licence. That was harsh.
And yes. I'm not a fan but he's obviously talented and fast. But I fear that Red Bull are creating a monster.
I am simply saying that I think many race drivers would instinctively go for that inside in case someone closed the door - rather than lifting the throttle. Because the possibility is there. It happens in the flash of a second.
F_B
Premium
Don’t forget that Ricciardo is also one of the fastest in the whole F1 field, he destroyed Vettel 2014. And I bet Max would be a much tougher challenge than Bottas for Hamilton for example.
The penalty was correct , Especially when one consider the importance of the placing ( third ) ,had it been for 15 place he would only have gotten a penalty if the opposing team had made a complaint,
Had he given the placing back to Kimi by own will , The Team ( Red Bull ) would have given him a shout at the debriefing "why in the world did you do that" ?, All teams and drivers in this world explore the limits and if they can break a rule here and there--and get away with it- they will
Had he given the placing back to Kimi by own will , The Team ( Red Bull ) would have given him a shout at the debriefing "why in the world did you do that" ?, All teams and drivers in this world explore the limits and if they can break a rule here and there--and get away with it- they will
Remember when Zanardi overtook Herta I think it was on the last lap at the corkscrew at Laguna Seca.. straight ahead across the dirt...
He has been praised and praised for that desperate move but I've always been amazed and annoyed he wasn't accused of bad sportsmanship and penalised.. he should have been..
I think they got the verstappen thing 100% right...
He has been praised and praised for that desperate move but I've always been amazed and annoyed he wasn't accused of bad sportsmanship and penalised.. he should have been..
I think they got the verstappen thing 100% right...
I agree. Maybe a better solution would be a wider kerb but grass after it. So Max would've been able to squeeze on the kerbs, go wheel to wheel and make the pass cleanly.
This turn + overtake really invites for heating discussions!
The only reason Vettel lost in 2014 was the same as Hamilton losing in 2011 - calamity year where he was one of the worst drivers in the field, as shown when he was overtaken by a Caterham. RIC's record against JEV (only outscoring him by one point with JEV having considerably worse luck, being screwed out of huge points hauls more than once) is much more representative of his actual skill, and the exceptional RBs are masking his inherent lack of pace relative to the rest of the field.
And before you say that good drivers never have such years, I need only remind you that Alonso lost 46-33 to Trulli in 2004 before Jarno lost all the upgrades, and 46-45 before Jarno was fired.
As for Bottas, I'd rather wait until next season before making that sort of judgment. He was easily on par with Hamilton in the first half, making up for his lesser pace with far greater consistency as well as unexpected results (nearly getting pole at Monaco, winning in Russia), and his recent car troubles highlight just one of the many reasons I don't trust the Brackley team to be honest about anything they do.
Last edited:
If the stewards did give penalties for all drivers who where driving off track the list will be long this weekend. The only one who got one is Max.
That is the point I want to make. Just give penalties to all or to none. For example: Pole lap from Hamilton (was offtrack and not because it is slower), first turn, Vettel goes offtrack... and not because it is slower. Sainz (who did a great job) drove offtrack to get to Perez en overtook. So these are just three drivers who had benifit by going offtrack.
So give those guys penalties to. And not like this.
So the penalty is correct in letter of the law. But if you don't follow the law for everyone it is not a law anymore. So FIA was wrong here in my opinion.
That is the point I want to make. Just give penalties to all or to none. For example: Pole lap from Hamilton (was offtrack and not because it is slower), first turn, Vettel goes offtrack... and not because it is slower. Sainz (who did a great job) drove offtrack to get to Perez en overtook. So these are just three drivers who had benifit by going offtrack.
So give those guys penalties to. And not like this.
So the penalty is correct in letter of the law. But if you don't follow the law for everyone it is not a law anymore. So FIA was wrong here in my opinion.
This. What some people call pure and amazing racing is mostly pushing each other off the track, divebombing and blocking. Not what I would consider as pure and clean gentleman racing.
The track limits were discussed during the weekend and the drivers knew where they could track extend. In fact, the only one who was warned prior to the race was Verstappen himself for running much wider on the second to last corner than anyone else in qualifying and thus going way over their established limit. In fact, this is why I can't disagree with those who blame the track, as COTA's absolutely garbage flow is a big reason why the track limits are relaxed here year after year after year.
And again, there's a difference between track extending to gain mere hundredths of a second which are more than often lost through the higher traversed distance (Whiting's own words during the weekend, as quoted by Sky) and corner cutting to gain a position where there was otherwise no space whatsoever. The only incident that is in any way relevant here is that of Sainz on Ocon in the same corner, but he backed off.
None of those were in any way considered to be a relevant advantage. Hamilton gained nothing from going wide there, Vettel's line was compromised by being hit from the outside by Hamilton while Sainz made the move stick long before he ran wide (as Perez braked). Good thing you at least didn't mention Bottas since that's a fantastic example of how terrible both Red Bull drivers are at wheel-to-wheel racing.
F_B
Premium
I also regard Trulli was one hell of a driver, though not consistent enough or sometimes at the wrong place at the wrong time. I had hopes for Bottas as I really liked him at Williams but so far he’s a little bit disappointing. Would be good to see him challenge Hamilton as Rosberg did last year.
Think of it this way. If this race was at Montreal, and Vestappen had got on the podium by cutting the final chicane on the last lap, how many people would say he should keep the position? Nobody would be.
THIS IS EXACTLY THE SAME
So a penalty was 100% correct.
What needs fixing is the way to stop drivers (cough Sebastian Vettel cough) from abusing track limits all the time, so when something like this happens there isn't the controversy.
In 2016 the FIA started policing Track Limits and trialing methods in F1, and it was universally loved by fans. They tried two methods, one at Silverstone and the other at Hungary.
At Silverstone, they used competent and experienced marshals who have been used to enforcing stringent Track Limits rules in club competitions to observe the track and report drivers running wide. What did we have? Laptimes deleted, followed by drivers not running wide because they then knew it was wrong.
At Hungary, they installed sensors in the floor on the exits of corners, and pinged any drivers who set them off.
Both worked really well, but they were quashed (probably by drivers like Vettel who abuse the limits constantly) and disappeared, leaving us with this mess.
This whole "gaining an advantage" line needs to be chucked in the bin. The drivers wouldn't have been running wide at turn 19 in qualifying if it wasn't faster.
But the main thing that needs to happen is drivers being punished for abusing track limits in the race, regardless of if they're fighting or not. If someone runs wide at Turn 19 3 times without any pressure, give them a black and white flag. 2 more abuses and it's a Drive through. A simple solution that has been working in British Club Racing that Formula 1 need to bring in. Be harsh on them and they'll clean up their act quickly. It's somehow worked (kinda) on the BTCC, so it will work on Formula 1. There's too many pansies in the wrong places.
The FIA have incredibly accurate GPS tracking. They could if they want to monitor each car and ping them every time they go off track anyway.
THIS IS EXACTLY THE SAME
So a penalty was 100% correct.
What needs fixing is the way to stop drivers (cough Sebastian Vettel cough) from abusing track limits all the time, so when something like this happens there isn't the controversy.
In 2016 the FIA started policing Track Limits and trialing methods in F1, and it was universally loved by fans. They tried two methods, one at Silverstone and the other at Hungary.
At Silverstone, they used competent and experienced marshals who have been used to enforcing stringent Track Limits rules in club competitions to observe the track and report drivers running wide. What did we have? Laptimes deleted, followed by drivers not running wide because they then knew it was wrong.
At Hungary, they installed sensors in the floor on the exits of corners, and pinged any drivers who set them off.
Both worked really well, but they were quashed (probably by drivers like Vettel who abuse the limits constantly) and disappeared, leaving us with this mess.
This whole "gaining an advantage" line needs to be chucked in the bin. The drivers wouldn't have been running wide at turn 19 in qualifying if it wasn't faster.
But the main thing that needs to happen is drivers being punished for abusing track limits in the race, regardless of if they're fighting or not. If someone runs wide at Turn 19 3 times without any pressure, give them a black and white flag. 2 more abuses and it's a Drive through. A simple solution that has been working in British Club Racing that Formula 1 need to bring in. Be harsh on them and they'll clean up their act quickly. It's somehow worked (kinda) on the BTCC, so it will work on Formula 1. There's too many pansies in the wrong places.
The FIA have incredibly accurate GPS tracking. They could if they want to monitor each car and ping them every time they go off track anyway.
