Debate: Should Vettel Leave Ferrari?
- Thread starter Paul Jeffrey
- Start date
Normally, I'd say stay and fight it out. But in this case, I think the team is part of the problem. Ferrari is a pressure cooker right now, because they haven't been winning, and it's a team that doesn't really deal with losing well. The pressure that comes from both management and the home country makes it hard for drivers to bounce back from personal slumps.
I wonder if the Ferrari is just harder to drive than the Merc, so Vettel has to be closer to the edge in order to be in contention for a win. The pressure to do well combined with a car that's difficult to drive at the limit might give the impression that Vettel is making unforced errors
Vettel and Ferrari are as bad as each other, he continually makes rookie mistakes and the team is only good f@#$&IMG things up. For Ferrari to get back to their winning Schumacher days to me it is obvious that they need to bring in non Italian management and management styles. The hot headed blame culture and constant turn over of those roles higher up the food chain has not worked for them and never will. The world has moved on from that style and if they don't change with it they will never win a championship again.
Sasha Jednak
Sasa Jednak
I don't think "harder" is right word. Ferrari is slower, he needs to be on the edge to make it get closer to Merc's.
Difference is I think due to team "stability" in last years. Vettel can't say "we are slower now, let's keep it here and we will be faster in other races". It's not possible, because Ferrari never showed him that car will get better during season.
Vettel is basically going through the same experience as Alonso and this year he has the additional pressure of Leclerc. He may be more prone to making mistakes than other top drivers, but the reason he has made so many of them recently is the absence of any margin. I think @Fat-Alfie is 100% right about that. His car has not been on par with Mercedes except during the first part of 2018. Unlike Merc and RBR drivers, he cannot 100% rely on his team to chose the right strategy. Because of all that he has been forced to drive at the edge much more often than his competitors.
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Deleted member 561801
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Deleted member 561801
I think if Vettel goes back to Red Bull Racing, he could become stronger again than before. I'm sure he'll win a fifth title with Red Bull Racing. With Ferrari has no chance.
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Agree with you man, with Ric's number two opinion. But the very same applies to Ferrari and Leclerc and why we have this thread. Leclerc is doing all he can to cancel the number two labeling and he's making Vettel look bad. Back to Danny, all he have to do is outperform Max, if he is able in the first place, not run away from the challenge. And he's in a great car at Red Bull.
Anyways... May Danny pull off a Lewis Hamilton. I really like him and he's one of very few drivers who deserve a championship, IMO. Even just one title.
yeah swap teams with Kubica, he even finished in front of Vettel in last race driving a Williams.This swap would benefit both teams.
Haha, if you know how desperate Williams is to get a caliber driver to develop their car.
I think it's a number of things that have snowballed and made Seb's life difficult in the last few years, some of those points have been raised already.
1. Of all the teams, Ferrari is still the most political. For an experienced champion like Vettel, the pressure to deliver is huge. Le Clerc has nothing to prove, yes he's under pressure too but it's a different sort of pressure.
2. Ferrari are unfortunately in a bit of a mess again. During the mid 90's they had a good car but the team made too many mistakes and it seems we are heading in that direction again, and the more mistakes they make the more the pressure and so on.
3. The design philosophy for this years car is different to those around it. It's very strong in some areas but poor in others, and I think Seb is overdriving to try and compensate.
Lastly and this is something that doesn't always get mentioned. I don't think Seb likes the hybrid cars and he doesn't like the "look after" type approach of these current cars. I think he prefers the flat out approach of previous F1 racing. Which brings me back to his comment about the next set of rules. I think I read somewhere he mentioned about seeing what 2021 would bring and go from there.
You could see he was happy with the 2019 car during testing and then Mercedes came along with their upgraded car and I think it just took the wind out of his sales, he knew Ferrari were in trouble again.
I don't want him to retire in all honesty, he can deliver the goods. He just needs a car that he can believe in and he needs to get his confidence back. Which again is very difficult in the environment that Ferrari offers.
1. Of all the teams, Ferrari is still the most political. For an experienced champion like Vettel, the pressure to deliver is huge. Le Clerc has nothing to prove, yes he's under pressure too but it's a different sort of pressure.
2. Ferrari are unfortunately in a bit of a mess again. During the mid 90's they had a good car but the team made too many mistakes and it seems we are heading in that direction again, and the more mistakes they make the more the pressure and so on.
3. The design philosophy for this years car is different to those around it. It's very strong in some areas but poor in others, and I think Seb is overdriving to try and compensate.
Lastly and this is something that doesn't always get mentioned. I don't think Seb likes the hybrid cars and he doesn't like the "look after" type approach of these current cars. I think he prefers the flat out approach of previous F1 racing. Which brings me back to his comment about the next set of rules. I think I read somewhere he mentioned about seeing what 2021 would bring and go from there.
You could see he was happy with the 2019 car during testing and then Mercedes came along with their upgraded car and I think it just took the wind out of his sales, he knew Ferrari were in trouble again.
I don't want him to retire in all honesty, he can deliver the goods. He just needs a car that he can believe in and he needs to get his confidence back. Which again is very difficult in the environment that Ferrari offers.
They made a good point on last week's Mid Week Motorsport podcast that basically said Vettel's head has gone and the change to the car to solve a problem with understeer has left the car with oversteer which Vettel hates but Leclerc likes and things are unlikely to improve enough to the point where he is challenging for a championship next year. Walking away from F1 might be the result rather than seeing out his contract for money he doesn't need and would only serve to damage his reputation.
One suggestion they made was bring back Alonso as he wouldn't cost so much at this point and all the people he fell out with in Ferrari's management have gone.
http://www.radiolemans.co/2019/07/17/midweek-motorsport-series-14-episode-27/ (start talking about it around 26mins in)
One suggestion they made was bring back Alonso as he wouldn't cost so much at this point and all the people he fell out with in Ferrari's management have gone.
http://www.radiolemans.co/2019/07/17/midweek-motorsport-series-14-episode-27/ (start talking about it around 26mins in)
From what i can see and understand from watching too much ferrari onboard cam during the qualy and sometimes the race while seating on my armchair lol (watching by F1 TV access)the ferraries have a low/medium corner entry's understeer and also midcorner understeer(and sometimes snap oversteer if they approach it slower) but the deficit is covered a little by great exit acceleration and traction (they don't even need to shortshift to avoid wheelspin) so they are always frustrated at the corners and have to make it up by good exits that can put pressure on them to make it right at the end of every *** corner, while the merc have a happy tail (not a loose tail,happy but controlled) and great front end and also a well balanced downforce (a little shifted to the front) and it can attack any medium speed corner with higher speed and they only need to control the exit and shortshift a lot on exits. the difference is the merc drivers are so confident in the entry and midcorner and their hardest part is to just manage the accelaration and traction on exits while the ferraries have no confidence in entry and midcorner, that's what makes them mistake a lot as going a little faster in medium speed corners will force them too wide and a little slower will result in loosing overall and rear downforce and a snap oversteer that even a good exit can't help it.
With a oversteery car you know you have to always control oversteer and you know it's always there and it always rewards you if done right but understeery powerful cars sometimes have the habit of sudden oversteers when you are at the limit of traction and grip at the middle of medium speed corners (when the downforce is decreased), this is why they are always use wider lines in those corners(or way slower at tighter lines) vs mercedes drivers. with a constant understeery car you have always limited choice to approach corners and the setup as any change in aero balance could result sudden oversteer midcorners instead of a controlled oversteer.
The only corners that ferraries are great at are fast and longer ones(like turn 11-12-13 sequence at bahrain that is like a very long fast corner, their only strong points other than the straights and the turn 10 exit's acceleration at that circuit was that sequence) as their aero is so rearward vs mercedes they can hold their line at higher speeds there, mercedes cars have to run it wider or they will loose the line by oversteering at the middle of that long-highspeed.
tl;dr
While the ferrari look solid and smooth unlike the mercedes that looks all over the place, but their drivers have no trust and confidence in the car through the corners at the limit vs mercedes guys. it seems their car's ability(merc and ferrari) have swapped in this season, merc focused on its weak point while maintaining some of their strongest points but ferrari threw its strong points away to pursue mercedes's strongest points from 2017 and 2018 seasons
*just my amateur take and it can be wrong, so wrong
Still ahead of the other driver, despite the poor recent form.
At times this year he has shown he is still the best ferrari driver, and it is likely vetelle will regain that position soon.
At times this year he has shown he is still the best ferrari driver, and it is likely vetelle will regain that position soon.
The time for Vettel at Ferrari has expired, but good drivers are always sought in Germany at DHL and UPS.
I like Vettel the person. He seems like a very down to Earth guy, no ego, no drama, no bling. As a driver, however, I’ve always had the nagging doubt that he needs everything to fall in place the right way for him in order to succeed. The minute he’s not in an optimal situation, he struggles. I just can’t see him turning things around at Ferrari and rallying the team behind him. A change of scenery probably would do him some good, but where? That’s the problem with today’s F1: unless you drive for Mercedes, forget the championship. And if you don’t drive for Ferrari, Mercedes or Red Bull, forget race wins.
Dux
Simracer since 99 / 3D Engineer & Game Developer
One: Those 4 titles were worlds apart in terms of difficulty and competition, which was far more fierce and colorful than today
Second: No team has been ever as dominant as Mercedes has been and still is after 6 years. Compared to year and half of dominance of Vettel alone, not Red Bull.
So I am not sure on what are you on about mate, but you are big time wrong
Dux
Simracer since 99 / 3D Engineer & Game Developer
That is so true and sad in same time. And it pains me to read someone that puts much more credit on the Hamilton titles than they would on Vettel's because I remember 7 different drivers won the first 7 races of 2012 season, that never happened before and that is a statement of how much drivers were important, and it wasn't until half of 2013 that Vettel found his form to win record 9. Not to mention 2 out of 4 were won in last race. 2010 was unique season in which 3 drivers had chance of winning the title, that never happened before, and Vettel stood out from all. Other than that, we saw racing, podiums by Perez and number of other drivers, poles of the likes of Hulkenberg in Williams. Wins by no less but 5 teams, all of that compared with today...well you put it very nice. Just to add, since 2014 only 3 teams have won a race. Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes, out of which around 80% by Mercedes. Speaks volumes really
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As in, which Therapist did you consult last winter?Maybe I missed something, but other than Niki, has there been any F1 driver that takes a sabbatical and comes back in the same form or better (i.e. wins a championship)? Isnt' it more times they come back a little weaker? As a 4 time champion, whether you just adore driving in F1 or not, you're not coming back just for that thrill, you're in it for the big show.
No sabbatical needed, Seb is a great driver...he just needs to have a chat with a certain driver about what they did last winter.
"Valterri, it's Seb..."
A lot of very good and valid points being raised. IMO the last thing Vettel should do is leave Ferrari or take a sabbaticle. The biggest problem facing Ferrari isn't the drivers, it's Ferrari. For years when Enzo was alive and running the show the world saw a team in turmoil. He (Enzo) had surrounded himself with yes men and phsyncophants who only told him what he wanted to hear. Some through fear others through personal ambition. When Jean Todt was brought in to run things he made it quite clear that it was on the understanding that he would run it his way and his way only. He got rid of the yes men, brought in Schumaker, Rory Burn and Ross Brawn among others placing them in key positions and built a team dedicated not to self interest but in restoring Ferrari to the winners circle. 4 constructors and drivers titles attest to the success of his leadership. Since his departure to higher political positions we have seen a slow but steady return of the old Ferrari. In fighting, self interest and a distinct lack of results. The usual Ferrari attitude has returned, oh we're not doing so good let's sack the manager. It doesn't matter who the manager is, if they are not being given the support from the company to do the job it isn't going to work. Ferrari desperately need another Jean Todt and the sooner the better. Vettel isn't everyones cup of tea but he's still a damned good driver with a lot more to give and Leclerc has already proved that if he's let of the leash he's more than up to the task of producing great things. But looking at Ferrai's history non of the above is likely to happen which is a real shame
