AC Classic DTM @ Donington GP - Wednesday 3rd June 2020

[stribbeck]

Enjoyed that so much thank you @Medilloni for organising the event.
First race didn't go well got tapped wide and went from 6th to 16th managed to get back to 9th before the end
2nd race got a cracking start and got upto 5th from 9th, ended up finishing 6th best finish on an RD race yet.
Brilliant fun thanks again

 

[Kek700]

Great fun race for me, really enjoy it , don’t get Donington, struggled with the Merc on this course, how I managed to get the placing I got is beyond me.
Well done podiums and @Medilloni for the organisation, I tried to help you John in the second race, some what went wrong. Oooop’s
When you went through it seemed like every man and his dog joined you, that wasn’t the plan.

 

[Kek700]

@GeekyDeaks i know what you mean, couldn’t laugh, I was in a state of shock, never seen a high speed overtake quite like it before and you made the corner.

 

[Denis Betty]

EDIT: has anyone got a replay of the first race they can share? I got hit from behind on T1 and I wanted to check if they waited

I'll upload it. I've been trying for ages to make a vid of the incident, but can't get my head around it. The guy hit 3 cars, caused a pile up and didn't wait. Please can everybody who was punted check their replays, as the same guy did something very similar in R2. His driving was pretty shocking all evening and it was him that rubbed me up the wrong way on several occasions before I realised that it was him causing accidents and not waiting. If you were punted and the guy didn't wait, please consider submitting an incident report, as driving like this ruins our club races.
Thanks.

 

[GeekyDeaks]

and you made the corner.

more by luck than judgement good job Denis was paying attention. I'll not be repeating that manoeuvre in a hurry!

 

[joeymac]

@Denis Betty That incident in turn 1 really annoyed me, so I just reviewed it in the replay. It looks like a bit of a chain reaction type if thing, but either way I believe that the driver who hit us could have been more cautious, and certainly should have waited.

@GEO147 The incident in race 1 where I ran into you when you were rejoining at turn 4 I can only put down to understeer under heavy breaking. When I initially saw you were off the road I figured you'd wait for me to pass, but in fairness to you the gap was quite large between me and the car in front, so when I realised you were getting closer to the track I tried to brake even heavier while still trying to make the corner and I bloody under-steered straight into you, so I'm very sorry. Maybe I should have been more cautious but I was still frustrated by the turn 1 incident.

Regarding the incident in Race 2 at the same corner, after a good and clean start I was tapped in the rear while breaking for the turn and the inevitable happened, so although I don't consider that one totally my fault, I am indeed sorry. I believe that the driver who tapped me should also have waited in this case too.

It's so frustrating that coming here to learn and improve that I end up basically lapping on my own each time following silly, avoidable incidents. I am much faster when racing with the group than when just circulating on my own, and barring those bloody hairpins I can keep up with most of the guys (in the midfield at least). I enjoy a close battle on track but I always try to keep it as clean as possible, and if someone is clearly faster I will let them through and try to watch and learn from them.

I enjoyed driving the Alfa, but I don't think I ever drove it in a way to maximize the 4WD aspect and I suffered heavily at those bloody hairpins!

 

[Locoblade]

Cheers guys and thanks to @Medilloni for organising. Enjoyed it a lot but I've discovered I badly need to knock the rust off my racecraft, I can do half reasonable laps on my own but making too many mistakes when racing in a group. I lost it in both races at the old hairpin where I rarely go off on my own and then just remembered I also lost the back end by accidentally selecting first too early at the Melbourne hairpin which left me broadside across the track creating a roadblock at one point so apologies for that!

 

[Interslice]

Cheers guys and thanks to @Medilloni for organising. Enjoyed it a lot but I've discovered I badly need to knock the rust off my racecraft, I can do half reasonable laps on my own but making too many mistakes when racing in a group. I lost it in both races at the old hairpin where I rarely go off on my own and then just remembered I also lost the back end by accidentally selecting first too early at the Melbourne hairpin which left me broadside across the track creating a roadblock at one point so apologies for that!

You had good pace chris. I didn't find it an easy track, especially for the bimmer.
Running the sideways pedal without TC was fine in the few practice laps I had, but I didn't do a proper full stint on the tyres to see how that faired. Didn't end well!

Thanks to john for organising. Looking forward to next week already!

 

[GeekyDeaks]

I need to check the replay, but I'm pretty sure I had a good little battle with @hape near the end of both. I find it's always a bit easier when you are chasing someone, but I couldn't quite get past, it was great fun anyway! Had to take avoiding action at the hairpin once or twice

 

[Dennis Manke]

Thanks for the nice race guys. did someone save the replay ?

 

[Locoblade]

You had good pace chris. I didn't find it an easy track, especially for the bimmer.
Running the sideways pedal without TC was fine in the few practice laps I had, but I didn't do a proper full stint on the tyres to see how that faired. Didn't end well!

Thanks to john for organising. Looking forward to next week already!

Thanks, yeh was fairly happy qualifying 12th and when I was on my own I had reasonably pace in race 2, I'm just lacking the consistency at the moment to not make the odd catastrophic mistake especially when in a group under a bit of pressure. I was another that went softs in the first race, I tried them for about 15 laps whilst practicing and they felt ok and didn't seem to drop off, but in hindsight I think they probably dropped off their good grip level after a couple of laps and turned themselves into an extra hard as I was significantly quicker on the mediums in the second race even early on, but then those seemed to really fall away at the end and felt worse then the soft for the last few laps strangely.

The M3 is certainly fun but a bit of an odd beast though, faithful 95% of the time but if you do something slightly different in a braking zone, shift down slightly early/late or have the slightest whiff of steering lock dialed in it sails 20m past the apex then the engine braking suddenly decides to kick in and spin you at about 20mph whilst trying to recover.

 

[Denis Betty]

more by luck than judgement good job Denis was paying attention. I'll not be repeating that manoeuvre in a hurry!

I agree with Ernie - how the hell you made the corner I will never know.
But you held your hand up, aknowledged a mistake and gave bach the place. Bravo.

But whilst we are on the subject... There was a lot of diving up the inside, from a long way back, very late on the brakes. That IMO is a divebomb and divebombing is outlawed and just wrong. @GeekyDeaks made a mistake and anyway, he gave back the place, but deliberately lunging for a gap, if you don't already have an overlap, is not fair racing.

To make a pass attempt on corner entry, you should have your front wheels level with the lead car's rear wheel at the very least BEFORE you touch the brakes or start to turn in. Anybody can throw it up the inside and stop it on the apex, there's no skill in that, but if you do it to me, rest assured I will be turning in regardless. If you hit me during that lunge, it's your fault.

 

[Locoblade]

I agree with Ernie - how the hell you made the corner I will never know.
But you held your hand up, aknowledged a mistake and gave bach the place. Bravo.

But whilst we are on the subject... There was a lot of diving up the inside, from a long way back, very late on the brakes. That IMO is a divebomb and divebombing is outlawed and just wrong. @GeekyDeaks made a mistake and anyway, he gave back the place, but deliberately lunging for a gap, if you don't already have an overlap, is not fair racing.

To make a pass attempt on corner entry, you should have your front wheels level with the lead car's rear wheel at the very least BEFORE you touch the brakes or start to turn in. Anybody can throw it up the inside and stop it on the apex, there's no skill in that, but if you do it to me, rest assured I will be turning in regardless. If you hit me during that lunge, it's your fault.

I think the Donington GP layout lulls drivers into those type of moves because of the hairpins (maybe try the national layout in future?) as I also had one or two incidents like that happen to me especially at Melbourne where I was a good couple of car lengths ahead going into the braking zone, braking at my usual marker at the 100m board staying on line on the left hand side about to turn in only to find someone barreling diagonally for the apex trying a massive block pass and basically giving me the choice of running wide with them (as they didn't even manage to stop it on the apex) or crashing into them.

Also what may be a contributing factor (or it may be just me) but I felt I had a distinct lack of rearward visibility in those cars running in VR which made defending difficult. I was in the Beemer and I suspect the wing mirrors are in the Guinness Book of Records for being the smallest ever and the interior mirror was way too high out of peripheral view if you're seated correctly behind the wheel not driving it like a people carrier with your head on the roof lining. I use Crewchief and had Helicorsa running more in line of sight but I don't think they fully compensate for good mirrors and I wish it was possible to run a virtual mirror in VR like iRacing has (I couldnt find a VR app to do this?), it would give you far better spatial awareness I think and allow you to notice when the person behind was perhaps lining up a lunge so you could defend it earlier and put them off the idea.

 

[RasmusP]

I agree with Ernie - how the hell you made the corner I will never know.
But you held your hand up, aknowledged a mistake and gave bach the place. Bravo.

But whilst we are on the subject... There was a lot of diving up the inside, from a long way back, very late on the brakes. That IMO is a divebomb and divebombing is outlawed and just wrong. @GeekyDeaks made a mistake and anyway, he gave back the place, but deliberately lunging for a gap, if you don't already have an overlap, is not fair racing.

To make a pass attempt on corner entry, you should have your front wheels level with the lead car's rear wheel at the very least BEFORE you touch the brakes or start to turn in. Anybody can throw it up the inside and stop it on the apex, there's no skill in that, but if you do it to me, rest assured I will be turning in regardless. If you hit me during that lunge, it's your fault.

What you say it completely right, I'd like to add this little clarification for the newer guys on top though:

If the car in front is gonna brake way too early, outbraking will look like a full on dive bomb but in that case isn't one.
It's still a risky move to then try an overtake as the driver in front clearly missed the braking and therefore also might not be able, in this moment, to judge a close situation throughout the corner.

But let's add this:
"you're allowed to make a move that might look like a dive bomb, as long as you can make the corner on the normal line and you are able leave space if the car that was ahead is still next to you".

Of course it's absolutely not cool if you park it on the apex or even slide/brake past it with no possibility of taking the corner like one normally does on the racing line.

Sadly this happens quite frequently and is definitely not allowed as you say!

And I'm sure you're not writing about this because you braked too early. I raced with you a few times and I know that when you complain, you're definitely right to complain.

 

[HF2000]

I think the Doninton GP layout lulls drivers into those type of moves because of the hairpins (maybe try the national layout in future?) as I also had one or two incidents like that happen to me especially at Melbourne where I was a good couple of car lengths ahead going into the braking zone, braking at my usual marker at the 100m board staying on line on the left hand side about to turn in only to find someone barreling diagonally for the apex trying a massive block pass and basically giving me the choice of running wide with them (as they didn't even manage to stop it on the apex) or crashing into them.

Also what may be a contributing factor (or it may be just me) but I felt I had a distinct lack of rearward visibility in those cars running in VR which made defending difficult. I was in the Beemer and I suspect the wing mirrors are in the Guinness Book of Records for being the smallest ever and the interior mirror was way too high out of peripheral view if you're seated correctly behind the wheel not driving it like a people carrier with your head on the roof lining. I use Crewchief and had Helicorsa running more in line of sight but I don't think they fully compensate for good mirrors and I wish it was possible to run a virtual mirror in VR like iRacing has (I couldnt find a VR app to do this?), it would give you far better spatial awareness I think and allow you to notice when the person behind was perhaps lining up a lunge so you could defend it earlier and put them off the idea.

Does the virtual mirror (F11 key) not work in VR?

 

[pattikins]

Does the virtual mirror (F11 key) not work in VR?

No. I think there is a way of altering the angle of the reflection in the mirror in relation to the driver's head position. Unfortunately it's a vague recollection - it's my age

 

[GeekyDeaks]

If the car in front is gonna brake 50m too early, outbraking will look like a full on dive bomb but imo isn't one.
So I think this rule needs the addition of:
"you're allowed to make a move that might look like a dive bomb, as long as you can make the corner on the racing line and leave space if the car that was ahead is still next to you".

My gut feeling is that if you are in this situation and they are doing it regularly, just be patient and wait until the next lap. If they are not doing it regularly and it was a one off, you are probably just going to risk a collision and if you knock them off and have enough about you, the golden rule is going to kill your race

In my instance I purely made a mistake. I was actually trying to stay side by side with @Kek700 at the end of Starkey's, but I misjudged the braking point and ended up side by side with @Denis Betty ! I was then laughing uncontrollably down into Melbourne and not quite sure how I made that one too... I felt the only reason I was still on the track was because of Denis' judgement so it was only fair to give the position back

 

[pattikins]

Little addition to this:
What you say it completely right, as long as both cars hit the braking point perfectly right.

What you say sounds a bit too strict imo. Like if the car in front is braking too early, you must also brake too early...

So let's add this:

If the car in front is gonna brake 50m too early, outbraking will look like a full on dive bomb but imo isn't one.
So I think this rule needs the addition of:
"you're allowed to make a move that might look like a dive bomb, as long as you can make the corner on the racing line and leave space if the car that was ahead is still next to you".

Basically "you are only allowed to make a move that looks similar to a dive bomb, if the car ahead is taking the corner slower than normally."

I know this leads to hairy situations but I also think it's awesome racing if you're approaching the corner and it's about who will hit the braking point just right.

If course it's absolutely not cool if you park it on the apex with no possibility of taking the corner like one normally does on the racing line.

But it's also great fun if the driver on the inside misses the braking point and you do the switchback of a lifetime, waving at him while he's sliding past the apex

If I overtook someone under braking & continued to brake beyond the apex, I would class that as a dive bomb. Adding in caveats about leaving space &/or being on the racing line, for me, would lead to a lot confusion and it would be difficult to address.

 

[Locoblade]

No F11 doesn't work in VR and I think its the position/size of the mirror that's the issue rather than the angle of the image it portrays, as I had to turn my head up and to the right by perhaps 45 degrees to actually look at it. It may partially be my headset as it's not the best for clarity outside the central sweet spot meaning you can't really glance up by moving your eyes like you would in real life.

 

[pattikins]

No F11 doesn't work in VR and I think its the position/size of the mirror that's the issue rather than the angle of the image it portrays, as I had to turn my head up and to the right by perhaps 45 degrees to actually look at it. It may partially be my headset as it's not the best for clarity outside the central sweet spot meaning you can't really glance up by moving your eyes like you would in real life.

This is what I was thinking of (my memory rescued by google ):