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But what when it's not the goal to get every bump right? So without knowing the original track you just don't know and can't seperate, same with elevation ;)

Then why try to do a copy of the real thing if you don´t even care to get it right? Might aswell design your own tracks at that.
It´s because people want to drive on the real thing. And yes, i can tell the difference between a laserscanned Brands and a not laser scanned Brands. The difference is HUGE.

Then we have the coolest thing of them all. Say you are watching a race on TV. You know exactly what the driver is going through as he´s moving along the track because you have yourself driven several hundred laps of the track to know every single bump or elevation so it adds a whole different dimension to watching races.

The important part is yourself accepting that it's not neccessary to have a laserscanned track for having fun or even having more fun on a laserscanned track. I think most people on iracing are so influenced by marketing that their mind doesn't accept anything without laserscanning anymore, it seems like a religion to me.

What? Why should i accept that it´s not neccessary when i feel it is neccessary. Makes no sense to NOT laserscan real tracks.

It´s not marketing, it´s just that iRacers like myself demand quality over quantity. And now Kunoz has realised this aswell and thus, laserscanned tracks are in Assetto Corsa.

If i should not care about laser scan tracks i might aswell still play Need For Speed because according to you i should accept that realistic physics is not neccessary.

The iRacing people demands realism, whatever it takes. Same with physics. iRacing should always strive for realism and non-laserscanned tracks is not realism one bit.

Which is exactly what Kunoz realised and is now working towards. Same with the web based game.
Or charging money for cars/ tracks. All developers will have to go this route on way or another.
Rfactor has started with charging for online play so you see, everyone that hated on iRacing will now face the same dilemma.
 
But what when it's not the goal to get every bump right? So without knowing the original track you just don't know and can't seperate, same with elevation ;)



The important part is yourself accepting that it's not neccessary to have a laserscanned track for having fun or even having more fun on a laserscanned track. I think most people on iracing are so influenced by marketing that their mind doesn't accept anything without laserscanning anymore, it seems like a religion to me.

I have been a paying member of iRacing for the past 12 months and i am just rediscovering how much fun i can have with all the Simbin expansions i have! Although i fully appreciate the realism of a laser scanned track, i have been finding myself having more fun with other games like Game Stock Car where i can bang around the AI and not worry too much about having a perfect race. I did a bunch of races at iRacing's Road America this weekend and then i jumped in the BMW GT2 in GT Power expansion for Race 07 at Road America, and even if i can tell the difference (big one) between the two tracks, i was having more fun with the non laser scanned track... so, i think it is great thar Asseto Corsa will have laser scanned tracks, but even if it didnt have them i am sure we will all have hours of fun with this new title!
 
But what when it's not the goal to get every bump right? So without knowing the original track you just don't know and can't seperate, same with elevation ;)

The important part is yourself accepting that it's not neccessary to have a laserscanned track for having fun or even having more fun on a laserscanned track. I think most people on iracing are so influenced by marketing that their mind doesn't accept anything without laserscanning anymore, it seems like a religion to me.

That is like a popular saying "What you dont know doest hurt":D ... but my the problem is that i already know how many tracks looks like thanks to iRacing

the more real i know it is the more fun i will have
i signed up iRacing for 1 year and i almost dont go there anymore ... but for sure is not because of the laser scanned tracks ... in my opinion the tracks and the online "crowd" are the 2 best things in iRacing compared to NKPro ...
 
Then why try to do a copy of the real thing if you don´t even care to get it right? Might aswell design your own tracks at that.

Because the feeling is important, and to get the feeling some may need laserscanning and some not. Some even can accept fantasy tracks if it feels right. Like i wrote, it's how your brain accept it.

It´s because people want to drive on the real thing. And yes, i can tell the difference between a laserscanned Brands and a not laser scanned Brands. The difference is HUGE.

How did you compare then? What are your valid arguments against mine some posts above?

Then we have the coolest thing of them all. Say you are watching a race on TV. You know exactly what the driver is going through as he´s moving along the track because you have yourself driven several hundred laps of the track to know every single bump or elevation so it adds a whole different dimension to watching races.

The real world drivers are going through a lot more than you think, believe me. No Sim can ever simulate that or even get close. A sim is just a mental training tool for professionals and a tool to develop a base setup.

What? Why should i accept that it´s not neccessary when i feel it is neccessary. Makes no sense to NOT laserscan real tracks.

Didn't mean you personally, was more speaking in general. Feelings are not objective, feelings are more related to beliefs than anything else. You could only question your feelings if you would have the ability to do a fair comparison between laserscanning an no laserscanning wich you obviusly haven't done yet, like i said, comparing different sims to get to a conclusion that laserscanning is really necessary isn't fair, period.

It´s not marketing, it´s just that iRacers like myself demand quality over quantity. And now Kunoz has realised this aswell and thus, laserscanned tracks are in Assetto Corsa.

They do it because it will be used as training tool for professionals like RF Pro, not because the marketing of iracing wich is making you believe that it's a must for everybody to feel as real as possible.

If i should not care about laser scan tracks i might aswell still play Need For Speed because according to you i should accept that realistic physics is not neccessary.

I think you really have no idea what laserscanning is all about, that it's just data wich has to be translated into code. Tell me please, why do you think artificial data would feel different? A comparison with how tires, dampers, springs etc. react with laserscaned track data is just hilarious.. made my day...

The iRacing people demands realism, whatever it takes. Same with physics. iRacing should always strive for realism and non-laserscanned tracks is not realism one bit.

Most of the iracing people i discussed with just ignore valid arguments, they often even have any themselfes. That's the reason i said it seems like a religion to me, not more not less. The only valid argument is the feeling of realism, and that's very subjective not objective.

Have a lough
 
Because the feeling is important, and to get the feeling some may need laserscanning and some not. Some even can accept fantasy tracks if it feels right. Like i wrote, it's how your brain accept it.

Some have higher standards of realism then others i guess. It´s probably more of a thing where when there is no laserscanned tracks then you accept the fact. But when you have experience laser scanned tracks you think a bit differently.

How did you compare then? What are your valid arguments against mine some posts above?

Just by looking a photo for example. Or if iRacing and another game has the same track all you have to do is drive on it to feel the massive difference in feel and realism. Laser scanned tracks also adds so much more to the FFB.


The real world drivers are going through a lot more than you think, believe me. No Sim can ever simulate that or even get close. A sim is just a mental training tool for professionals and a tool to develop a base setup.
Again you miss-understand the whole sentence. I know exactly what the driver feels from the track. I know exaclty how he feels the elevations or small small bumps in the map that is not seen by a camera. But i know it because i´ve driven on that track.

It´s not just a mental traning. You can actually learn a track down to the tiniest bump before you even go to the real track.
Huge difference then playing some homemade track made in some basement by some sweaty bloke.

Didn't mean you personally, was more speaking in general. Feelings are not objective, feelings are more related to beliefs than anything else. You could only question your feelings if you would have the ability to do a fair comparison between laserscanning an no laserscanning wich you obviusly haven't done yet, like i said, comparing different sims to get to a conclusion that laserscanning is really necessary isn't fair, period.

But you see you are wrong. I have played several games and tried several racetracks in games and NOTHING comes close to the level of iRacing. It´s clear that YOU obviously haven´t tried iRacing´s tracks.

I think it is. Because it´s two sims trying to create realism and one of them fails because it´s impossible to recreate a track exactly without laserscanning. You can get the layout fairly similar but it´s still lightyears away.

They do it because it will be used as training tool for professionals like RF Pro, not because the marketing of iracing wich is making you believe that it's a must for everybody to feel as real as possible.
Wrong. They do it because they have seen the success iRacing has had with it and everyone that knows sims knows that the tracks in iRacing are their biggest selling points.

Love the Rfactor PRo stuff aswell. It´s myth that every F1 team uses Rfactor or similar. Rfactor Pro is merely a base for the teams own programs so at the end of the day there is no Rfactor Pro left.
And then we can discuss the fact that certain teams developed their own sim long before Rfactor existed. Like Williams.


I think you really have no idea what laserscanning is all about, that it's just data wich has to be translated into code. Tell me please, why do you think artificial data would feel different? A comparison with how tires, dampers, springs etc. react with laserscaned track data is just hilarious.. made my day..

You are wrong again. The point of laserscanning a track is to get a copy of the real track down to the millimeter.
It´s not data that has to be translated into code. In iRacing you drive on the pointcloud itself and not on the visual track.

The rest i have no idea what you mean.. you seem fairly confused and not really knowing what you talk about.
Which is understandable because you probably have never driven on a laserscanned track in the first place.


Most of the iracing people i discussed with just ignore valid arguments, they often even have any themselfes. That's the reason i said it seems like a religion to me, not more not less. The only valid argument is the feeling of realism, and that's very subjective not objective.

Have a lough

Most guys that i talk to that haven´t driven a meter on a laserscanned track just talks a bunch of crap about stuff they really have no idea about.

And usually it comes down to the person not having the money to spend on iRacing and thus creates a hate towards a product simply because they can´t afford it.

Realism is not subjective. Either it´s more realistic or it´s not. Plain and simple. But you would not know that, you have never experienced it.
 
That is like a popular saying "What you dont know doest hurt":D ... but my the problem is that i already know how many tracks looks like thanks to iRacing

the more real i know it is the more fun i will have
i signed up iRacing for 1 year and i almost dont go there anymore ... but for sure is not because of the laser scanned tracks ... in my opinion the tracks and the online "crowd" are the 2 best things in iRacing compared to NKPro ...

Iracing is without any doubt very cool for oval racers and for people who like the toughest competition possible because lots of aliens drive there. I personally like the clean graphic look and filmlike replays alot. I could imagine joining only to have acess to the forum where many interesting stuff goes on. The Sim itself It's not for me because it lacks european cars, tracks and real series. I couldn't justify it right now to invest there in content and stuff and not using it really due to all the other great sims wich are on the horizon suiting more my needs. And making it dependant of laserscanning where i drive doesn't make sense to myself because i'm technically interested and see no killer argument there. I'm not a iracing hater like some may think..
 
You are wrong again. The point of laserscanning a track is to get a copy of the real track down to the millimeter.
It´s not data that has to be translated into code. In iRacing you drive on the pointcloud itself and not on the visual track.

While point clouds can be directly rendered and inspected,[1] usually point clouds themselves are generally not directly usable in most 3D applications, and therefore are usually converted to polygon or triangle mesh models, NURBS surface models, or CAD models through a process commonly referred to as surface reconstruction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_cloud

listen carefully what he says at 5:12 to 5:20

"All of those points are taken into account and analyzed when we're recreating the surface the drivers are actually driving on"

He didn't say that you actually race on the pointcloud itself because they don't lie. If you'd actually race on the pointcloud don't you think they would say it?


The rest i have no idea what you mean.. you seem fairly confused and not really knowing what you talk about.
Which is understandable because you probably have never driven on a laserscanned track in the first place.
Do you know what a polygon is?

And usually it comes down to the person not having the money to spend on iRacing and thus creates a hate towards a product simply because they can´t afford it.
You are obvoiusly a fanboy creating his own story of the story without even having a idea about how IT stuff works. Its understandable because it's obvoius that you spend alot of money on content already and just try to justify it.

Realism is not subjective. Either it´s more realistic or it´s not. Plain and simple. But you would not know that, you have never experienced it.

Its not plain and simple at all, there is enough evidence that artistic realism ( the exact discription of what we are dealing with here ) depends on your own perspective = subjective.

What you mean is scientific realism, there you have even things wich exists but you never experience because you can't sense them. So there are maybe not real for you but for other species they might.
 
While point clouds can be directly rendered and inspected,[1] usually point clouds themselves are generally not directly usable in most 3D applications, and therefore are usually converted to polygon or triangle mesh models, NURBS surface models, or CAD models through a process commonly referred to as surface reconstruction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_cloud

listen carefully what he says at 5:12 to 5:20

"All of those points are taken into account and analyzed when we're recreating the surface the drivers are actually driving on"

He didn't say that you actually race on the pointcloud itself because they don't lie. If you'd actually race on the pointcloud don't you think they would say it?


Oh so nice of you :) You missed one big detail though.
"usually point clouds themselves are generally not directly usable in most 3D applications, and therefore are usually converted to polygon or triangle mesh models, NURBS surface models, or CAD models through a process commonly referred to as surface reconstruction."

And now read this from the President of iRacing,
Actually, I should mention we then took this another giant step forward from the old days. Not only did we visually model the tracks perfectly, but we also connected the tracks directly to the physics so, essentially, you are driving on a perfect point cloud of the actual track and feeling everything and having the car react to everything on the track to millimeter accuracy. We actually have moved much further than we originally intended or thought possible, and are light years ahead of where any simulation was even five years ago in this regard. I think to this day we are the only ones with laser-scanned tracks although some companies are starting to do a few or considering doing them here and there.

Do you know what a polygon is?

Yes.


You are obvoiusly a fanboy creating his own story of the story without even having a idea about how IT stuff works. Its understandable because it's obvoius that you spend alot of money on content already and just try to justify it.
Actually im a fanboy of the best sim out there. And now it happens to be iRacing. Back in the day it was GTR2.
And no, the money i´ve spent in iRacing is something i never think about, they have been worth every single penny.

But you are obviously a hater, a person with not enough money to try a game you speak about so much and thus making everything you say fall flat on the ground because you simply don´t know anything.

Don´t hate on me because you can´t afford it.


Its not plain and simple at all, there is enough evidence that artistic realism ( the exact discription of what we are dealing with here ) depends on your own perspective = subjective.

What you mean is scientific realism, there you have even things wich exists but you never experience because you can't sense them. So there are maybe not real for you but for other species they might.

Nope i´m talking about plain and simple realism. You seem to have trouble understanding what realism means.

Realism: "The tendency to view or represent things as they really are"

But then again, your reality might differ from the rest of us. But that´s your problem really.
 
You know LIDAR? They have scanned most if not all of the F1 tracks in the world to supply for the teams.

Want to know a nice fact? The level of quality LIDAR uses does NOT match the levels of quality set by iRacing.
that should give you an idea on what level iRacing works at when it comes to tracks.
 
Oh so nice of you :) You missed one big detail though.
"usually point clouds themselves are generally not directly usable in most 3D applications, and therefore are usually converted to polygon or triangle mesh models, NURBS surfacemodels, or CAD models through a process commonly referred to as surface reconstruction."

And now read this from the President of iRacing,

Actually, I should mention we then took this another giant step forward from the old days. Not only did we visually model the tracks perfectly, but we also connected the tracks directly to the physics so, essentially, you are driving on a perfect point cloud of the actual track and feeling everything and having the car react to everything on the track to millimeter accuracy. We actually have moved much further than we originally intended or thought possible, and are light years ahead of where any simulation was even five years ago in this regard. I think to this day we are the only ones with laser-scanned tracks although some companies are starting to do a few or considering doing them here and there.

Essentially ... why did he use this word? Maybe to say that's not the raw point cloud but behave like the point cloud? :rolleyes:

But you are obviously a hater, a person with not enough money to try a game you speak about so much and thus making everything you say fall flat on the ground because you simply don´t know anything.

Don´t hate on me because you can´t afford it.
It's just funny that you think i haven't tried it, is this your standard sentence or what? Maybe it applies to you, maybe you know nobody in reallife who comparts your simracing hobby. It wouldn't surprise me really.

I may sell my car to take a look at iracing from my own pc :p

Nope i´m talking about plain and simple realism. You seem to have trouble understanding what realism means.

Realism: "The tendency to view or represent things as they really are"

What you mean is objectivism ( reality independent of consciousness ), what reality is is well desricbed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism

But then again, your reality might differ from the rest of us. But that´s your problem really.

Of course, because everybody is different and see things different. It would be very sad if everybody would have the same reality. That's why objective discussion is useful, because it doesn't matter what anybodys reality is, important is how objective it is, independant from personal viewpoints. Something you haven't learned to appreciate yet.
 
Essentially ... why did he use this word? Maybe to say that's not the raw point cloud but behave like the point cloud? :rolleyes:
Good question. in iRacing you have a visual track and then you have a pointcloud at which the cars run on.
the point cloud is used to create the visual track.


It's just funny that you think i haven't tried it, is this your standard sentence or what? Maybe it applies to you, maybe you know nobody in reallife who comparts your simracing hobby. It wouldn't surprise me really.

I may sell my car to take a look at iracing from my own pc :p
You haven´t tried it so stop talking. Even though you might claim that you have in your next post i know it´s a lie.
I know several people that race in real life. Several of them uses simracing during the winter.

I doubt you even have a car to be honest.



What you mean is objectivism ( reality independent of consciousness ), what reality is is well desricbed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism

No i mean realism. Which was explained in my last post. When you go for realism you try to re-create the real world.
There´s not subjectivity in that, it´s reality plain and simple.

Of course, because everybody is different and see things different. It would be very sad if everybody would have the same reality. That's why objective discussion is useful, because it doesn't matter what anybodys reality is, important is how objective it is, independant from personal viewpoints. Something you haven't learned to appreciate yet.

A blue painting is always a blue painting, if someone claims it´s red it´s a problem that lies inside that persons head, not in reality.
There is only one reality, one of which i hope you are apart of but im now starting to think you have your own little lala-land.

Reality is science. Science can be measured. Reality can be re-created. Reality is the same for everyone except for those who live in lala-land.
 
You haven´t tried it so stop talking. Even though you might claim that you have in your next post i know it´s a lie.
I know several people that race in real life. Several of them uses simracing during the winter.

I doubt you even have a car to be honest.
Believe what you wan't to believe, you do it anyway because you're a believer and not interested in the slightest evidence wich could change your point of view. Just timewasting to discuss with you to be honest, welcome on my ignore list..
 
Yes ... you guys need to make peace ... what about if both of you race tomorow evening in 500 Abarth. I think this car will be in Asseto Corsa so we can start dreaming how it will be ...:) and you guys can discuss this in TS when race is over and we all go to have a beer in the bar next to the pit boxes with those lazy mechanics:D .
 
LOL, iracing, one of the most ridiculous games I've ever played, and the arrogance and snobbery of it's members/defenders is painfully obvious in this thread.

Actually, and by far, the best sim available today, and this includes the rFactor 2.

I have every sim in the market, so I'm "member" of everyone of them, and still all them have a long way to go to catch iRacing.

On the opposite, I see a lot of fanboys of rFactor/Race that just critizise iRacing because it is expensive, or even not pirateable.
 
Actually, and by far, the best sim available today, and this includes the rFactor 2.

I have every sim in the market, so I'm "member" of everyone of them, and still all them have a long way to go to catch iRacing.
"

Hopefully Assento Corsa will change your mind:) ... i expect it to be a "kind of mix" of iRacing with NKPro
 

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