Why do my front wheels never regain traction in a skid?

[Aaron Cumberland]

Hello,

In the video below, I make a sloppy line error in the first curve of the Variente Ascarti at Monza and aim directly for the terrified little man in the orange jacket standing behind the guardrail. I over-correct the oppostite way to make the curve and end up spinning out of control. I understand that my steering input was obviously way too aggressive and this induced the spin, but I don't understand why my front tires never regained traction under braking during the actual spin.

I'm driving the AC default Aventador SV in 'Pro' mode under ideal track conditions.

I have the ProTyres app open on top of the screen that shows individual tire traction under braking (yellow to red on the tire icons indicates partial to full loss of traction). Additionally, I have the AC Pedals App open that displays real-time throttle and braking input. All tires show loss of traction as the spin ensues (understandable) but as I brake, the front tires never regain traction. At the same time, my counter-steering input as the spin ensues has no effect whatsoever as you can see. The front tires simply never regain any traction at any point until the car comes to a complete stop.

I've noticed this phenomenon several times in which counter-steer has no effect due to total loss of front tire traction in an enveloped spin and I'm just not sure if this isn't a bug with Assetto Corsa physics. Shouldn't the front tires still regain grip under braking at some point before the car comes to a complete stop and facilitate at least some counter-steering input? The way the physics are acting now is almost like the steering locks out completely in a spin and counter-steering is completely futile.

Thank you for any advice or insight you can offer me.

 

[Jim Layee]

Those with a reasonable level of physics knowledge wouldn't even be having this discussion about a flawed computer game. Why don't you show us how it's done then Jim? I challenge you to make a video with the default AC Aventador recovering from a snap oversteer scenario. Mind you, I'm not talking about a low speed drift video, but a true snap oversteer (if you know what that is), and then use real world recovery technique to prevent a spin. HINT: You won't be able to.

We'll all wait patiently though as you prepare a litany of excuses why you can't do this.

Watch your video and learn what you did wrong. Then we can talk physics.

 

[Aaron Cumberland]

Watch your video and learn what you did wrong. Then we can talk physics

Please Jim, show us how to do it correctly?

 

[garyjpaterson]

im sad you removed the video tbh. Was an excellent display of exactly what the issue is.

 

[McGherkin]

I had a lot of fun LOOS'ing the Aventador into various corners, I can't find any examples of it not doing what it would do in real life. You can't expect an arse heavy car to gather itself up simply because you turned into a slide.

Are you talking about snap oversteer like shown below at Variante Della Roggia where the car comes to an almost complete stop without the front ever coming back? Because that's pure weight transfer, that's what happens when you have a V12 behind you and you start swinging it back and forth - it's the pendulum effect which increases when you transition from sliding one way to the other - You see it successfully caught at Variante Ascari where a relatively mild weight transfer causes the car to pendulum to the right, and it took a quick trip to the lock stops to catch it. A severe one, compunded with putting two tyres on the grass, is never going to be saveable in real life or elsewhere.

P.S. I see you swerved that question about your own real life experience

P.P.S. Sorry about my non-God-tier Aventador drifting skills. It'll have to do since Aaron took his video down.

 

[Gevatter]

Sorry about my non-God-tier Aventador drifting skills. It'll have to do since Aaron took his video down.

All well and good, but if you used ProTyres it would show you that you don't have front grip, regardless of how the car reacts

 

[McGherkin]

All well and good, but if you used ProTyres it would show you that you don't have front grip, regardless of how the car reacts

All I care about is whether the car is doing the right thing, tbh. I don't care if there's an app that tells me the wheels have fallen off.

 

[Gevatter]

All I care about is whether the car is doing the right thing, tbh. I don't care if there's an app that tells me the wheels have fallen off.

As you should. I was being facetious up there

 

[Mr Deap]

P.P.S. Sorry about my non-God-tier Aventador drifting skills. It'll have to do since Aaron took his video down.

You kind of proved his point starting at 0:54. It's not clean & It took way too much effort to hold the slide.

I watched a couple of slaptrain way back. He seems to do much better. Although all he does is drifting wrong.

 

[Stereo]

Again, is there a video of someone sliding an Aventador anywhere that smoothly irl though.

 

[McGherkin]

You kind of proved his point starting at 0:54. It's not clean & It took way too much effort to hold the slide.

I watched a couple of slaptrain way back. He seems to do much better. Although all he does is drifting wrong.

Yes, this is the pendulum effect. You've got a heavy engine in the back which has swung right out on the left hander, the steering is hard to the right, and when it grips and changes direction it accelerates the rear end to the left until the point when the car is straight, and the momentum from that acceleration simply carries the back around around forcing the car to turn right. This is the correct behaviour for a mid rear car and catches out a lot of drivers IRL.

I know not quite an Aventador but this clip of someone trying to slide a Lotus gives you a good idea - look at the amount of lock required to achieve very little angle, the rear end has a lot of impetus over the angle of the car and it takes a lot of effort to keep it under control in a slide. Start throwing the back end around and you'll quickly overwhelm that 'correction budget'

It's not impossible to save such transitions though - as demonstrated in my video at 1:41, you just need to be very quick, use all the lock and in that particular case, take advantage of the Aventador's all wheel drive to pull the front wheels forward and out of the slide.

 

[Aaron Cumberland]

I had a lot of fun LOOS'ing the Aventador into various corners, I can't find any examples of it not doing what it would do in real life. You can't expect an arse heavy car to gather itself up simply because you turned into a slide.

Are you talking about snap oversteer like shown below at Variante Della Roggia where the car comes to an almost complete stop without the front ever coming back? Because that's pure weight transfer, that's what happens when you have a V12 behind you and you start swinging it back and forth - it's the pendulum effect which increases when you transition from sliding one way to the other - You see it successfully caught at Variante Ascari where a relatively mild weight transfer causes the car to pendulum to the right, and it took a quick trip to the lock stops to catch it. A severe one, compunded with putting two tyres on the grass, is never going to be saveable in real life or elsewhere.

P.S. I see you swerved that question about your own real life experience

P.P.S. Sorry about my non-God-tier Aventador drifting skills. It'll have to do since Aaron took his video down.

Congradulations - you know how to drift. The problem is that if the front wheels lose all traction for any reason, it's simply not possible to recover them no matter what technique is employed. As long as you maintain at least some front wheel traction such as in a drift, it's no problem. The bug may have to do with tire thermodynamics being reversed in the physics code in some default car mods; i.e., the tires progressively cool down instead of gradually heating up during driving.

 

[Mr Deap]

I'm very confused by your overview of the situation. All I saw is that you started with understeer between the first second of the video. After you got lost with what happened to the car. Because the rear had less traction than the front. It lost more traction than you believe it has. Basically, the front of the car went to where you steered at.

 

[StefanoCasillo]

3 pages in and he still thinks a car with no "traction" on the front tyres will spin.

What's next? Claiming the game has a BUG because when he steers right the car doesn't go left?

 

[RasmusP]

3 pages in and he still thinks a car with no "traction" on the front tyres will spin.

What's next? Claiming the game has a BUG because when he steers right the car doesn't go left?

Maybe he should drive backwards so the front wheels get heated up instead of cooling down to invert the bug that causes the car to slide.
At least the car would then go left, when he steers right..

 

[StefanoCasillo]

Maybe he should drive backwards so the front wheels get heated up instead of cooling down to invert the bug that causes the car to slide.
At least the car would then go left, when he steers right..

It will also actually "spin" if the "front" tyres loose traction! I think you solved this

we did it RD!!!

 

[mclarenf1papa]

@StefanoCasillo oh how I've missed you

Nostalgia

 

[McGherkin]

'Congradulations - you know how to drift.' - Aaron Cumberland, 2021

How do I set this as my signature?

 

[Gevatter]

'Congradulations - you know how to drift.' - Aaron Cumberland, 2021

How do I set this as my signature?

 

[McGherkin]

Ah I’ve let my membership lapse. Ta

 

[Mr Deap]

Finally, the “expert” showed up

It popped up in my list of suggested videos on youtube algorithm.

Different car, but couldn't recover at all. In OP video, he could snap to the other direction.