What is up with the F301?

[HolyDiver]

Hey all!

I am struggling heavily with the F301 car. I recently installed AMS and did some testing with this car, but it's not really going well so far. The car's rear end snaps away in every corner at every speed the moment I turn in. Now as I recently installed the game and haven't grown accustomed to the physics and the FFB yet, I am not sure whether I have setup my wheel and the FFB right. Should I enable automatic rotation in-game? The car has a default rotation of 360 degrees with 18 steering lock, is the latter too high maybe?

 

[Spinelli]

I don't see anything in the video that I also don't see in AMS. Others should respond, too, but I have no idea what in that video is supposed to be so impossible to replicate? I often have those "controlled squirrelley" moments in the car and if you keep your foot carefully in the throttle, the AMS F301 behaves as the real ones did in the video. The problem is that most people do not keep the throttle properly modulated in a tense moment--they either lift off suddenly or try to apply more throttle. The former will often upset the car and make it swap ends; the latter will often overheat the rears and then cause a mess when you don't have enough grip to bring the car under control and accelerate to stay in the race.

This is the wrong thread to get a lot of feedback from others, since we have completely hijacked it. But I doubt I am the only one who does not see anything foreign in the video compared to what we experience driving the AMS car.

Sorry but by just saying "AMS can do all that" doesn't prove anything and, no, applying more throttle doesn't just make a car swap ends in real life like in AMS...I just posted a ton a videos showing exactly this, lol, it's like you're not actually comprehending anything I'm trying to say, no offense.

- initiate oversteer in AMS without lifting the throttle and what happens? Revs will instantly skyrocket as if the tyres lost all contact and pressure with/into the ground and as if the car has thousands of horsepower unlike in those videos, NKP, and LFS

- give the car more throttle while you're already in an oversteer situation and the car in AMS will act extremely snappy and on/off unlike in those videos

- get slides going with very big amounts of opposite lock and look how smoothly how long he can stay in a slide all while changing the angle of the slide and controlling the wheelspin to his desire rather than an all or nothing scenario

 

[Marc Collins]

Sorry but by just saying "AMS can do all that" doesn't prove anything and, no, applying more throttle doesn't just make a car swap ends in real life like in AMS...I just posted a ton a videos showing exactly this, lol, it's like you're not actually comprehending anything I'm trying to say, no offense.

That's not what happens in my AMS. You don't seem to be listening despite these points being made over and over.

Unless you post a video showing the AMS F301 misbehaving in similar situations that also includes the pedal and steering telemetry, there is not much point to any of this. You can't compare a sim to a video of a real life car.

 

[Spinelli]

That's not what happens in my AMS. You don't seem to be listening despite these points being made over and over.

Really? OK, please hop in an F301 and show me some videos of you getting on the throttle while in the middle of oversteer in AMS and having the car remain in control while adding more opposite lock to compensate for the larger oversteer angle...rather than the revs and wheelspin instantly sky rocketing.

Show me you doing long slides like the white car in my video where the slide lasts a long time all while playing with opposite lock and wheelspin via throttle while the car never gets all snappy.

Show me slides where towards the second half of the slide you hammer the throttle without the car acting very aggressively and snappy but instead remaining calm.

That's not what happens in my AMS. You don't seem to be listening despite these points being made over and over.

I am listening. I give explanations of different scenarios, what happens in real life VS the game, what doesn't happen, etc. I even give videos and many clips showing different situations. All you do is say things like: not true, it can be done, my AMS isn't like that, etc. etc. You literally provide no substance while seeming to fall victim of cognitive bias.


P.S. You don't even need to make videos, you can even just look for other people's videos on youtube to try and prove me wrong. I've never seen a video in almost 20 years of me playing the ISI engine and watching videos - never a single video out of thousands and thousands - which contradicts what I'm saying.

 

[Marc Collins]

Really? OK, please hop in an F301 and show me some videos of you getting on the throttle while in the middle of oversteer in AMS and having the car remain in control while adding more opposite lock to compensate for the larger oversteer angle...rather than the revs and wheelspin instantly sky rocketing.

Show me you doing long slides like the white car in my video where the slide lasts a long time all while playing with opposite lock and wheelspin via throttle while the car never gets all snappy.

Show me slides where towards the second half of the slide you hammer the throttle without the car acting very aggressively and snappy but instead remaining calm.

I am listening. I give explanations of different scenarios, what happens in real life VS the game, what doesn't happen, etc. I even give videos and many clips showing different situations. All you do is say things like: not true, it can be done, my AMS isn't like that, etc. etc. You literally provide no substance while seeming to fall victim of cognitive bias.


P.S. You don't even need to make videos, you can even just look for other people's videos on youtube to try and prove me wrong. I've never seen a video in almost 20 years of me playing the ISI engine and watching videos - never a single video out of thousands and thousands - which contradicts what I'm saying.

Will be interested to hear what others think, but as I mentioned, they won't be reading this thread.

 

[Gringo]

At the far edges of the performance envelope no doubt the accuracy of the simulation is not realistic in many aspects. Automobile physics simulation is very complex compaired to flight for example. Combine the complex physics with the available computing power (uless you are an F1 racing team) that limits the frequency/fidelity of real time computation between display and control inputs and you get what we have today.

To make matters worse highly accurate sim racing has been met with very little intrest over the years since the first real attempt by GPL back in the 90's. Anyone looking to make a dollar in racing games puts focus on graphics, not the accuracy of simulation. For the majority of todays market this formula generates the highest return on investment. Unfortunatly for you and I, no one really cares about mid corner wheel spin, and it's unliky a developer is interested in developing / improving the physics for this tiny market.

In the end the physics is the same for everyone so in that respect good competition can still be had in multiplayer. Also I think the physics is close enough that you can learn a lot about racing a car on the computer and much of that would be useful in the real world.

Cheers

 

[Marc Collins]

And @Spinelli, before carrying on any further, let's get back to the basics:

1) You have not provided any evidence to support your claim that there is an inherent bias in the simulation. I, on the other hand, can point to old Opala, Camaro, F1 Vintage, the DRIFT cars all as examples of cars that can be drifted at will. In fact, the base/default drift cars probably hang the tail out too little. Unless you have some evidence for a consistent flaw or bias, I don't want to see mention of your blanket statement again

2) You have provided a video showing some F3 catches or saves. Unfortunately, without pedal and steering telemetry this video is pretty much useless for any argument you are presenting here. I am sure we can go onto YouTube and find a video of F3 pirouettes that look ridiculous--are these drivers competent? Because they look like AMS drivers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChVRAwqbsUc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eR0oaXkves

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e22-ONd4Cwg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF8kIDl-1mk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiCE4I3FImc

Sorry, but I can (or have without trying too hard) replicate everything I see in these videos with the AMS F301, just like when I am driving better I can control the car as in your video examples. How does this help to prove or disprove anything? It does not, because we don't have telemetry for the cars in the video or for AMS examples (missing completely other then opinion-based claims). No more video examples needed unless they have data and a matching AMS video to show the supposed difference.

3) Bend the throttle and brake curves to concave (less sensitive). Does this make any difference to controllability? If we could do an option to cut the F3's engine output exactly in half (not sure if that is do-able?), that would also make for a great test. Any difference for you?

Until I see answers to these points, I will refrain from further replies because it will only result in a circular discussion.

 

[Stephen O'Sullivan]

It seems to me that this discussion of real-life and simulated physics is missing two crucial elements: the wheel force feedback and the game's force feedback. Might I suggest that you two compare the settings for your wheel software and AMS software so that you have a baseline from which to compare real and simulated physics? As we all know, a relatively minor tweak to wheel and/or game can make a huge difference to the amount of information conveyed through the wheel.

 

[Marc Collins]

It seems to me that this discussion of real-life and simulated physics is missing two crucial elements: the wheel force feedback and the game's force feedback. Might I suggest that you two compare the settings for your wheel software and AMS software so that you have a baseline from which to compare real and simulated physics? As we all know, a relatively minor tweak to wheel and/or game can make a huge difference to the amount of information conveyed through the wheel.

That would only work if we had identical hardware. Even the identical wheel won't respond the same way at different frame rates/lag rates.

Anyway, this is not about FFB, it's about the physics of the cars and whether they respond in a systematically flawed manner or not. I say any (major) flaws are in the tire and chassis programming, since they are clearly not consistent from car to car. As long as only one car works properly, my logic proves true--and I provided several examples. Spin says every car in AMS (and rF2 and rF and etc.) behaves in a consistently bad manner that is unrealistic due to flaws in the base physics engine programming.

What do you think? Is there anything in any of the videos linked above that seems impossible to reproduce in AMS with the F301? I say no.

 

[Salvatore Sirignano]

From what it sounds like Spinelli is saying, you should be able to mash the throttle at any slip angle and always be able to control it with opposite lock. That's not really the case IRL, as nobody would ever spin a real life car.
Whilst I agree that some cars are snappy, in my AMS experience it can be dialled out with setup changes. A couple of tweaks with the F Vintage at Johannesburg for example and the car can be drifted around the entire track..

 

[Stephen O'Sullivan]

That would only work if we had identical hardware. Even the identical wheel won't respond the same way at different frame rates/lag rates.

Anyway, this is not about FFB, it's about the physics of the cars and whether they respond in a systematically flawed manner or not.

Different hardware will give different results, but comparing the settings would at least eliminate the possibility of something that was obviously wrong with your wheels, such as excessive clipping or FFB levels that were too low to convey all the handling information. The same goes for Automobilista's FFB and Minimum Force levels. I was just trying to eliminate any untoward interference that might affect your (and Spinelli's) conclusions. I shall now run far away from this thread.

 

[Spinelli]

From what it sounds like Spinelli is saying, you should be able to mash the throttle at any slip angle and always be able to control it with opposite lock. That's not really the case IRL, as nobody would ever spin a real life car.
Whilst I agree that some cars are snappy, in my AMS experience it can be dialled out with setup changes. A couple of tweaks with the F Vintage at Johannesburg for example and the car can be drifted around the entire track..

I'm not saying that at all. No way. It can't really be dialled out with setup changes. What you can do though is make it harder to get oversteer through a more grippy rear-end but when the oversteer does happen, it will be generally the same result (of course different cars and setups can change things).

You have not provided any evidence to support your claim that there is an inherent bias in the simulation. I, on the other hand, can point to old Opala, Camaro, F1 Vintage, the DRIFT cars all as examples of cars that can be drifted at will. In fact, the base/default drift cars probably hang the tail out too little. Unless you have some evidence for a consistent flaw or bias, I don't want to see mention of your blanket statement again

So when I explain things and give examples it doesn't count, but when you explain things it counts. So basically, by default, my word automatically doesn't count and your word automatically counts. Right...

You have provided a video showing some F3 catches or saves. Unfortunately, without pedal and steering telemetry this video is pretty much useless for any argument you are presenting here.

This statement alone proves you still aren't able to comprehend what I'm explaining. You don't need pedal and steering telemetry. This is general behavior and there is different steering and pedal inputs in every one of those videos.

...as examples of cars that can be drifted at will.

I never said a car cannot be drifted. I've said this repeatedly but I'll say it again: comments like this prove that you don't even comprehend the issue I'm describing let alone noticing it yourself.

[the videos of spins you posted]

Not only do the spin videos you posted not support your argument (of course you can spin in real life) but the videos actually support what I'm saying because you can see the basic vehicle behavior even during the spin to be not in line with ISI physics engine spins. It's quite different behavior.

Sorry, but I can (or have without trying too hard) replicate everything I see in these videos with the AMS F301, just like when I am driving better I can control the car as in your video examples.

Please show me. Please, please show me. I'm waiting.

 

[Marc Collins]

I'm not saying that at all. No way. It can't really be dialled out with setup changes. What you can do though is make it harder to get oversteer through a more grippy rear-end when the oversteer does happen, it will be generally the same result (of course different cars and setups can change things).

So when I explain things and give examples it doesn't count, but when you explain things it counts. So basically, by default, my word automatically doesn't count and word automatically counts. Right...

This statement alone proves you still aren't able to comprehend what I'm explaining. You don't need pedal and steering telemetry. This is general behavior and there is different steering and pedal inputs in every one of those videos.

I never said a car cannot be drifted. I've said this repeatedly but I'll say it again: comments like this prove that you don't even comprehend the issue I'm describing let alone noticing it yourself.

Not only do the spin videos you posted not support your argument (of course you can spin in real life) but the videos actually support what I'm saying because you can see the basic vehicle behavior even during the spin to be not in line with ISI physics engine spins. It's quite different behavior.

Please show me. Please, please show me. I'm waiting.

You'll be waiting a long time... I am not about to spend hours making videos. You need to produce some videos since you are the one claiming all AMS cars have a flaw. I'll settle just for F301 videos where you show that the car cannot do something from ANY video above. If you include wheel and pedal telemetry and setup info then the rest of the world can be convinced that you are correct, or, show you that they can do what you cannot.

 

[Spinelli]

You'll be waiting a long time... I am not about to spend hours making videos. You need to produce some videos since you are the one claiming all AMS cars have a flaw. I'll settle just for F301 videos where you show that the car cannot do something from ANY video above. If you include wheel and pedal telemetry and setup info then the rest of the world can be convinced that you are correct, or, show you that they can do what you cannot.

Fine. I'll make videos. Wheel and pedal telemetry as well as setup info is irrelevant here as it's general vehicle behavior and not down to some magical or some exactly specific wheel/pedal inputs or vehicle setup but I'll include those anyways because I can already tell you're gearing up to use those as your argument-shield.

Give me a few days, I'm not that experienced with making videos.

 

[Marc Collins]

Fine. I'll make videos. Wheel and pedal telemetry as well as setup info is irrelevant here as it's general vehicle behavior and not down to some magical or some exactly specific wheel/pedal inputs or vehicle setup but I'll include those anyways because I can already tell you're gearing up to use those as your argument-shield.

Give me a few days, I'm not that experienced with making videos.

Don't do videos to convince me. I already told you that I can get my AMS F301 to do any/all behaviours in the entire range of videos. I have asked others to comment. When there is more than one person (besides just you) who thinks that there is a certain manoeuvre or action that cannot be replicated in AMS, then we can all explore and assess the specifics.

But telemetry and set-ups are needed, because every one of the bad behaviours you claim are inherent flaws in the simulation could be caused by mis-driving the car. It could equally be bad simulation quality, which is why a sample of more than one (you) or two (me) is needed to come to any reasonable conclusion. Step 1 is to prove that all cars share this bad behaviour. Step 0 is to get a bunch of people to agree that the problem exists at all--and the F301 is as good a candidate as any. Once everyone fully understands and can replicate the problem, it will then be possible to reveal the same issue in other (all) vehicles.

 

[Spinelli]

Don't do videos to convince me. I already told you that I can get my AMS F301 to do any/all behaviours in the entire range of videos.

I have been driving the ISI physics engine for around 15 years. I don't believe you. Sorry but I don't. The stuff I'm talking about doesn't take a genius or an extraordinarily gifted driver to demonstrate.

I'll never forget the very, very first time I ever tried Project Cars 1. I suspected it's based on the ISI physics engine on the very first lap of EVER playing it. This behavior is THAT obvious and easy for me to detect....honestly. I then did some research and discovered I was indeed correct about PC being based on the ISI physics engine. Before I even knew it was, I literally detected it within the first lap EVER. This was about as blind of a test I could have. I had no clue it was based on the ISI physics engine, no clue at all, then within a few corners of my first time ever driving it, it stuck out at me like a sore thumb.

Anyways, I will make videos to try and explain this. Literally 90+% of my simracing since around 2004 goes into ISI engine based games (except around 2007-2009 when I really got into iRacing) so this is not to attack them (ISI, Reiza, Sector3, etc.) at all, on the contrary, it's because I'm passionate and strive for more improvement.

 

[Tim O'Glock]

I just had a look at @Spinelli's video. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears the video shows two different kinds of slides. In the first kind the driver is able to hold the slide for a long time while applying lots of opposite lock and modulating the throttle. He seems to be able pull it off with great ease and he is fully in control the whole time. Personally, I have never been able to do that in AMS. I have had thousands of slides, but they never looked like that. Whenever I slide in this game the car is just moments away from snapping in one direction or the other. It feels very on/off. I'm not saying it's difficult because a quick lift of the throttle combined with a very quick countersteer and immediate return to the center usually ends a slide instantly, but it's not progressive at all. On the rare occasion that I am able to hold a slide for a slightly longer time it is usually with the wheel almost centered and with very careful modulation of the throttle.

The second kind of slide is the one where the driver applies full throttle or even increases throttle while countersteering. This is definitely possible in AMS. I have done it countless times. Here is a quick video of me performing such slides. Slides are at 00:32, 01:22 and 01:47.

 

[Marc Collins]

I just had a look at @Spinelli's video. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears the video shows two different kinds of slides. In the first kind the driver is able to hold the slide for a long time while applying lots of opposite lock and modulating the throttle. He seems to be able pull it off with great ease and he is fully in control the whole time. Personally, I have never been able to do that in AMS. I have had thousands of slides, but they never looked like that. Whenever I slide in this game the car is just moments away from snapping in one direction or the other. It feels very on/off. I'm not saying it's difficult because a quick lift of the throttle combined with a very quick countersteer and immediate return to the center usually ends a slide instantly, but it's not progressive at all. On the rare occasion that I am able to hold a slide for a slightly longer time it is usually with the wheel almost centered and with very careful modulation of the throttle.

The second kind of slide is the one where the driver applies full throttle or even increases throttle while countersteering. This is definitely possible in AMS. I have done it countless times. Here is a quick video of me performing such slides. Slides are at 00:32, 01:22 and 01:47.

Thanks, @Tim O'Glock--you are a top-level AMS driver. In your reference to the long slide, are you referring to the F301, or any car in AMS, including the ones with harder tires that are generally easier to drift? And which slide(s) do you consider long? All the ones in Spin's video seem relatively short to me (as in saves, not purposeful drifting).

 

[Tim O'Glock]

It was meant as a general statement, but having thought about it again, there are cars that can be driven like that, the most obvious example being the Super Truck. Of course it has a lot more power than a F3 car and almost no grip at all, which makes things a lot easier.

The very first slide in the video is one of the long slides (yes, I know it's only 1s long).

I have noticed in the past that Niels Heusinkveld seems to have much better control over slides than me. Here is a video of him driving the F301 at Imola.

And here is a video of him drifting the Formula Extreme at a kart track.

Not sure why he has such good control over slides. I know that he usually uses setups that are very close to default, which might help. Default setups of open wheelers often have too much downforce at the rear, the rear springs are typically too soft and the differential has too much lock. All of these could help. Of course there could are also differences in hardware. His wheel is definitely a lot quicker than mine.

 

[Niels_at_home]

Often my videos are further tweaks or attempts at something physics wise, making them different from the release physics. Having a DD wheel with AMS is really good though, it is 75% the FFB that tells me about the opposite lock, I mostly just let it happen and control the last little bit of input. It feels like that anyway.

The physics engine is really solid and we have not found any bugs. I recently also managed to work out how force combining works (cornering+braking or cornering+accel) and the tire model basically seems to work as you would expect a good tire model to do.

The immediacy of the FFB just feels quicker and more direct than most other sims I've tried, that is the biggest help.

 

[Niels_at_home]

The F301 was with release physics, as they were at that time, which may or may not have been changed slightly since. (I really don't know )