We need to talk about Max Verstappen

[burrito]

Even ignoring T1 which I think was a bit of everyone's fault, the move on the straight was definitely dangerous, and the two "defending lines" into les combes with kimi and perez were frankly disgusting. The trajectory of his car meant he was never going to make the corner (on the inside) either time. Contact was inevitable unless the other driver backed out which is not something you can rely on to take a place. That's not how an overtake works.

I think he's a great talent and can be a champion in the future but he did himself a massive diservice today.

 

[Mark Aalberts]

Maybe Kimi should have a look on how Vettel got past Max. Vettel threw in a nice dummy and forced him to defend the right side and made the move on the left side. The problem with Kimi is he keeps going to the side that is going to be blocked, you can see it coming from miles. Same with Lewis on one of the Force India's, they had a great straight line speed and Lewis did the exact same thing as Vettel did on Max. My advise to Kimi, go watch those moves and learn.

It is actually kind of funny that we are having a discussion about this whilst the stewards are allowing it.

The only thing I am disappointed about is Max his commentary after the race in front of the Dutch tele about both Ferrari drivers. Other than that I hope he keeps doing what he is doing, its within a thin line but so far within the rules according to the stewards. You can argue about it but personally I don't mind to see this aggressiveness. Does he need to tone down a bit, yeah perhaps a little bit but not to much.

 

[LacSlyer]

It is actually kind of funny that we are having a discussion about this whilst the stewards are allowing it.

Yet they've shown time and time again that they have no clue what they're doing in the sport the past few years. There's obvious driver bias along with complete incompetence at times (don't even get me started on Bianchi). Not how a sport should be run.

As for Max, I'm a huge fan. And while he's impressive as hell you can't disagree that he's shown signs of a young driver that people like Grosjean were penalized for, yet he gets a pass. I mean, you can criticize Kimi all you want, but when one of the, if not THE, least vocal guys on the grid calls someone out there's an issue.

 

[AadHofman]

What's disgusting is that there seem to be different rules for different people. Obviously the marketing value of young Max is so high, that he he can't be punished until a major accident occurs.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

I am sure the stewards would have penalized him if he did something illegal.

He blatantly ran Raikkonen and Perez off the track, which is a clear cut breach of the rules, nothing happened. On the first lap, with a damaged car, he cut radillon, ran wide, full throttle on Pouhon and Blanchimont. Also blatant, with no effort on even trying to stay on the track, keeping full throttle etc. he is in a clear breach of more rules.
Also, Rosberg did get an reprimand for "driving with a damaged car" in Austria, at least he kept on driving safe, and on the track...
So no, it's not as easy as pointing to the stewards - those are the same guys that let people off with running too fast under yellow flag conditions for years, we all know how that ended.

I see everyone calling it "Max blocking Kimi it's so dangerous it's a matter of time before someone gets injured", this is what racing is and if you are fine with people letting each other pass without a fight don't complain when someone does something the others are not willing to do.

This is the reason why you don't weave, chop, block etc. on a fast straight. https://twitter.com/F1Nova/status/769904389763035136

 

[Jeff]

Im dutch and a very big fan of Max and his driving but today was a black day in his carreer if u ask me.

T1 was ultimately Vettel's fault for hitting Kimi (not that i think he should have been penalised) but i can understand why it happened. From Vettels perspective it would have been near impossible to know Verstappen had gone for that gap. He left room for Kimi but that was not enough as Verstappen was there too. From Verstappen perspective it was a stupid move imo. He ruined his start and then desperatly tried to make up for it right away. Though technically he did nothing wrong and all was according to the rules, he took way to much risk there when he decided to make it 3 wide in la source and paid the price. He should have took his loss there and try to come back at them on the kemmel straight.

The defending against Kimi on Kemmel straight was just a bit to much. Again he did nothing wrong according to the rules and i actually like that style of defending when done right. But this time it was not done right, it was too late and therefor dangerous. He gets away with it because the regulations are very open for interpretation and it is not written anywhere that this is forbidden.

The divebomb in les combes was actually his worst move of them all. He braked to late, forced Kimi off track and went off himself too. Again this was in the grey area cause on the apex he was fully alongside wich gives him the right to run Kimi wide on exit. But imo he didnt run Kimi wide but just pushed him off, even failing to make the corner himself because he had to much speed. If he would have made the corner it would have been ok, on the limit as always but ok. But the fact that he didnt make the corner makes it a illegal move to me. He could and probably should have been penalised for that.

Very dissapointed that he let the t1 incident affect his driving the whole race. He is still very young and that shows from time to time. And thats ok as long as he learnes from it. Wich i hope he does. His driving is always on the limit and is very exiting to watch. He knows exactly what he can and cannot do within the rules of the sport and takes it right to that very edge. In that manner he is a genious driver. He just needs to learn to keep his head cool when things aint going his way. And be a bit more thoughtfull when he speaks to the media cause what he said on dutch telly wasn't very proffesional, to say it nicely.

 

[Mark Aalberts]

O

Yet they've shown time and time again that they have no clue what they're doing in the sport the past few years. There's obvious driver bias along with complete incompetence at times (don't even get me started on Bianchi). Not how a sport should be run.

As for Max, I'm a huge fan. And while he's impressive as hell you can't disagree that he's shown signs of a young driver that people like Grosjean were penalized for, yet he gets a pass. I mean, you can criticize Kimi all you want, but when one of the, if not THE, least vocal guys on the grid calls someone out there's an issue.

How can you say that, last year Max got some ridiculous penalties that more experienced drivers got away with so i doubt there is driver bias involved there. And you really want to try to compare him with Grosjean? Max so far has show more stability during the races then Grosjean ever will get. The only thing we debating is the way he defends, in no way you can compare that to incidents that Grosjean or Maldonado had in their early F1 career.

For me its more that people have selective memory and only want to see what they want to see. Anyone noticed what Kimi did to one of the Haas drivers today it was almost the exact same thing. That guy really lost the touch of close wheel to wheel battles. Remember last year Bottas vs Kimi on Mexico for example.

Im not here to downtalk Kimi dont get me wrong and im a huge fan of him but he really lost the touch. Clean air he is fast but when it comes down on man to man battles (not the easy DRS passes) he is just not the old Kimi of the McLaren days. Just my opinion. Just go see the race back and compare his attempt to the succesfull atempt from Vettel on Max then you might understand what im trying to explain.

Yes he defends late right on the edge but anyone thinking it is going to lead to a crash just lol . Maybe that happens when some drivers get fed up with it and dont care, but the real racers will just get past him like Vettel did today.

 

[Boby Kim]

"Never second guess an operation from an armchair". That being said:

Max had a bad midstart with lots of wheelspin. At that point on he should have taken his loss. But....homerace...orange crowd....18 years old and two red ferrari's in front of him while he told the press the batthe was between the mercs and the RB's.
In the F3 Max was a very mature racer. Sure he is fast but he is young and to me it seems he could not handle the pressure...so divebombing going for three wide into La Source: not a chance for succes. Sure he is fast but he must learn to race with his head like he did in F3. Media and spotlights are hard to handle these days. Admit the mistake, take the loss, kick yourself, and focus on Monza. Oh yeah....first corner three wide: Not an option!

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

The defending against Kimi on Kemmel straight was just a bit to much. Again he did nothing wrong according to the rules and i actually like that style of defending when done right. But this time it was not done right, it was too late and therefor dangerous. He gets away with it because the regulations are very open for interpretation and it is not written anywhere that this is forbidden.

Nope, it is forbidden, from the International Sporting Code (which everything that is FIA sanctioned are following), Chapter IV, 2e, it is written:"It is not permitted to drive any car unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers at any time." Important to note, that it says or before potentially dangerous.
As you say yourself, it is dangerous, and such, a breach of driving conduct. You can also find this rule in the F1 Sporting Regulations, Article 27.5.

The divebomb in les combes was actually his worst move of them all. He braked to late, forced Kimi off track and went off himself too. Again this was in the grey area cause on the apex he was fully alongside wich gives him the right to run Kimi wide on exit.

It's not as much as a grey area. F1 Sporting Regulations article 27.8 states:"Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted". This is not stated as "on a straight" which 27.7 does.
It shouldn't be much doubt that what Verstappen did was deliberate, and it was crowding a car beyond the edge of the track. This, he did twice.

Also, the F1 Sporting Regulations, Article 27.4 states: "Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.". While Eau Rouge-Radillon can be excused that it was the first corners after the front wing had been damaged. There is no excuse for his constant driving off the track later on in the first lap, and it was, and is very clear that Verstappen did not make every reasonable effort to stay on the track.

To get a penalty of every single one of these would be harsh, but not even an investigation. That's sloppy work.

Also, there is a blanket regulation when it comes to putting the sport in a bad light, and saying you would rather drive someone off the track, that concede a position (after doing just that twice), you might put yourself in a slightly compromised position for later.

 

[LacSlyer]

How can you say that, last year Max got some ridiculous penalties that more experienced drivers got away with so i doubt there is driver bias involved there. And you really want to try to compare him with Grosjean? Max so far has show more stability during the races then Grosjean ever will get. The only thing we debating is the way he defends, in no way you can compare that to incidents that Grosjean or Maldonado had in their early F1 career.

For me its more that people have selective memory and only want to see what they want to see. Anyone noticed what Kimi did to one of the Haas drivers today it was almost the exact same thing. That guy really lost the touch of close wheel to wheel battles. Remember last year Bottas vs Kimi on Mexico for example.

Im not here to downtalk Kimi dont get me wrong and im a huge fan of him but he really lost the touch. Clean air he is fast but when it comes down on man to man battles (not the easy DRS passes) he is just not the old Kimi of the McLaren days. Just my opinion. Just go see the race back and compare his attempt to the succesfull atempt from Vettel on Max then you might understand what im trying to explain.

Yes he defends late right on the edge but anyone thinking it is going to lead to a crash just lol . Maybe that happens when some drivers get fed up with it and dont care, but the real racers will just get past him like Vettel did today.

Like I said, driver bias is exactly why the FIA is complete crap right now. Experienced drivers get the advantage while newer or lesser drivers don't have that advantage. So your point that the stewards didn't think Max deserved a penalty for anything he did and therefor we should accept that is negated by your very own statements that they're too unreliable to be unbiased. They're far too inconsistent, among numerous other things, and something has to change.

You're confusing my comparison to Grosjean. I'm not even remotely saying that Grosjean is as good of a driver, just that he had similar incidents to what Max has had this year, specifically in "dive bombing" (I wouldn't even call them dive bombing, just lack of a better term) early turns around a lot of traffic. Grosjean in return got a race ban for a massive incident he caused after using extremely similar tactics that caused incidents in 3 or 4 races in a short span. I'm not saying Max deserves a race ban, but this is at least two races this year where in the early turns he's caused two drivers to be out of the race or severely pushed back. He's proven to be slightly reckless early in the race in heavy traffic, and previous drivers who have had similar issues have been reprimanded with drive through penalties or grid spot penatlies at the very least.

I don't think anyone can argue against how late Max has been using his move to keep cars from passing him. I'm all for competitiveness, but the manner in which he does it is extremely reckless and a danger for other drivers. The fact is that it's just plain dangerous and it's surprising he hasn't caused a serious accident because of it yet. There's absolutely no place for those tactics in any form of racing. Laugh all you want about it, but when there's a serious incident caused from his tactics to block I wonder what your tone will be.

I'll finish with this. I love Max's aggressiveness. And I think one of the commentators of the race hit the nail on the head today in stating how similar he is to Senna and Schumacher when they first came up and how people complained about their driving. The difference here is that it's a completely different type of racing now, for many reasons. However, his recklessness and carelessness for the other drivers is the issue here. In my opinion, he's shown a lot of potential, and doing it so early has gone to his head and therefor he doesn't have the kind of respect the experienced drivers have for everyone else on the grid. There's a reason we don't hear about the veterans making ridiculous moves every other race.

 

[Jeff]

Nope, it is forbidden, from the International Sporting Code (which everything that is FIA sanctioned are following), Chapter IV, 2e, it is written:"It is not permitted to drive any car unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers at any time." Important to note, that it says or before potentially dangerous.
As you say yourself, it is dangerous, and such, a breach of driving conduct. You can also find this rule in the F1 Sporting Regulations, Article 27.5.



It's not as much as a grey area. F1 Sporting Regulations article 27.8 states:"Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted". This is not stated as "on a straight" which 27.7 does.
It shouldn't be much doubt that what Verstappen did was deliberate, and it was crowding a car beyond the edge of the track. This, he did twice.

Also, the F1 Sporting Regulations, Article 27.4 states: "Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.". While Eau Rouge-Radillon can be excused that it was the first corners after the front wing had been damaged. There is no excuse for his constant driving off the track later on in the first lap, and it was, and is very clear that Verstappen did not make every reasonable effort to stay on the track.

To get a penalty of every single one of these would be harsh, but not even an investigation. That's sloppy work.

Also, there is a blanket regulation when it comes to putting the sport in a bad light, and saying you would rather drive someone off the track, that concede a position (after doing just that twice), you might put yourself in a slightly compromised position for later.

Article 27.5 is about slow driving cars. Verstappen going full throtle of the kemmel straight is definetly not a slow driving car so article 27.5 doesnt apply to this situation. The articles that do apply to the situation are article 27.6 and 27.7 and nowhere do they state that what Verstappen did was illegal.

About 27.8 it does leave allot open for interpretation. It is and has been legal to run people wide on the exit if u are in front at the apex. This is exactly what Hammilton always does an he too gets away with it. U know why ? Because it is allowed and perfectly legal. When the driver on the inside is in front at the apex he deserves the right to determine his line trough the corner. It is up to the driver behind to concede or run wide.

About the first lap you are probably right. And like i stated before the move in les combes was worthy of a penalty to imo as he failed to make the corner. If he would have made it it would be perfectly legal though.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

Article 27.5 is about slow driving cars. Verstappen going full throtle of the kemmel straight is definetly not a slow driving car so article 27.5 doesnt apply to this situation.

No, it does not. It is important to notice that it says "or" not "and".
27.5
At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.

In order to ensure that cars are not driven unnecessarily slowly on in laps during and after the end of qualifying or during reconnaissance laps when the pit exit is opened for the race, drivers must stay below the maximum time set by the FIA between the Safety Car line after the pit exit and Safety Car line before the pit entry. The maximum time will be determined by the race director at each Event after the first day of practice but may be amended later in the Event if deemed necessary. The time will normally be based upon 145% of the best dry P1 or P2 time.
Again, it is "or" not "and". You may not drive unnecessarily slow. You may not drive erratically. You may not drive in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person.
The second part, is how they define "unnecessarily slow" when it comes to those specific areas of the race weekend.

About 27.8 it does leave allot open for interpretation. It is and has been legal to run people wide on the exit if u are in front at the apex. This is exactly what Hamilton always does an he too gets away with it. U know why ? Because it is allowed and perfectly legal. When the driver on the inside is in front at the apex he deserves the right to determine his line trough the corner. It is up to the driver behind to concede or run wide.

It is been accepted that the stewards do not bother with such stuff, but it is, in the way the rules are written, illegal to force another driver off the track, which is what they are doing. Also, Verstappen was not in front at apex, he was on the inside, but was not in front. At no point in the rules does it state anything about "inside vs outside" or "racing line" because that is, irrelevant if two cars are side by side. And forcing another driver is not allowed.

Speeding under yellows are not allowed either, but drivers do it, without any penalties, and we do know how that can end up.

I find forcing others off the track being extremely ugly racing, but also very weak racing, if you can't beat them, get them off the track, or spin them...

About the first lap you are probably right. And like i stated before the move in les combes was worthy of a penalty to imo as he failed to make the corner. If he would have made it it would be perfectly legal though.

No matter if he had stayed on the track or not, he forced someone off.

On a sidenote, Perez passed Verstappen off the track, there was no investigation on it. So, somehow they must've thought it was OK. But if it was OK, why was it ok... If it was because Verstappen forced him off anyway, why was never Verstappen investigated, as he did it twice...
The stewarding at Spa was very off. It's almost as if they was so embarrased after the whole Hamilton-Gearbox at the start of the day, that they went to pub and let the automatic system handle the rest. Which is why Nasr got a 5 sec penalty, as that was a computer that registered it, and no "investigation" on it either.

 

[Jeff]

No, it does not. It is important to notice that it says "or" not "and".
27.5
At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.

In order to ensure that cars are not driven unnecessarily slowly on in laps during and after the end of qualifying or during reconnaissance laps when the pit exit is opened for the race, drivers must stay below the maximum time set by the FIA between the Safety Car line after the pit exit and Safety Car line before the pit entry. The maximum time will be determined by the race director at each Event after the first day of practice but may be amended later in the Event if deemed necessary. The time will normally be based upon 145% of the best dry P1 or P2 time.
Again, it is "or" not "and". You may not drive unnecessarily slow. You may not drive erratically. You may not drive in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person.
The second part, is how they define "unnecessarily slow" when it comes to those specific areas of the race weekend.



It is been accepted that the stewards do not bother with such stuff, but it is, in the way the rules are written, illegal to force another driver off the track, which is what they are doing. Also, Verstappen was not in front at apex, he was on the inside, but was not in front. At no point in the rules does it state anything about "inside vs outside" or "racing line" because that is, irrelevant if two cars are side by side. And forcing another driver is not allowed.

Speeding under yellows are not allowed either, but drivers do it, without any penalties, and we do know how that can end up.

I find forcing others off the track being extremely ugly racing, but also very weak racing, if you can't beat them, get them off the track, or spin them...



No matter if he had stayed on the track or not, he forced someone off.

On a sidenote, Perez passed Verstappen off the track, there was no investigation on it. So, somehow they must've thought it was OK. But if it was OK, why was it ok... If it was because Verstappen forced him off anyway, why was never Verstappen investigated, as he did it twice...
The stewarding at Spa was very off. It's almost as if they was so embarrased after the whole Hamilton-Gearbox at the start of the day, that they went to pub and let the automatic system handle the rest. Which is why Nasr got a 5 sec penalty, as that was a computer that registered it, and no "investigation" on it either.

Sorry but you are wrong. The "or" points to the slow driving before the comma. You cant drive unnecessarily slow, you cant drive slow and erraticaly or you cant drive slow an cause danger to others. Just like "any such car" points back to the slow driving car. The whole article is about slow driving cars. But to you only the part about causing danger isnt and that is wrong.

The article that actually is about defending on the straights is article 27.7 wich states the following;

"Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his.

"Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason. For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.

Kimi did not have a 'significant portion' of his car along side thus Verstappen was allowed to make his move to the right according to the rules.

Im not saying i dont agree with you on some points about driving etiquette. And i agree that some of Verstappens moves were dirty and probably should haven gotten him penalised.

 

[Boby Kim]

Max should not have been penalized for his action. Its racing...**** happens. Want no ****: stop racing.
But pointing the finger towards the Ferrari's is not done. Bad Max....Mmmm...sounds like

 

[Martin Maaskant]

I agree with Jeff on his first post. Max messed up his start and tried to make up in the first corner. It wasn't wrong what he did there but it wasn't smart. I can understand the anger towards the Ferrari drivers from his point of view but the defending moves against Kimi where not cool to say the least. A bad day for him. I think he will learn from it when he cooled of a bit. You could see in the interview with the Dutch TV just after the race that steam was comming out of his ears. Personally I couldn't care less for the whining from Seb and Kimi. They both aren't exactly choir boys when it comes to moves on the edge of what is allowed.

 

[paracletus]

The driving in the middle, then moving at the same time to block opponent is the worst part. It's going to cause a massive (potentially fatal) crash at 210mph+.
It's treating real f1 like a game of rfactor at the moment i.e. too naive to realise the consequences of these actions.

Verstappen's team boss Christian Horner said: "It was firm, it was on the edge. He got away with it. I'm sure he'll have a good look at it and maybe learn a bit for future races."
Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff said Verstappen's driving was "refreshing but it's dangerous".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/37210411

 

[Andy_J]

Have I missed it but people keep saying Max said he would rather drive the others off the track but I never heard him say that. Are people making this up?

 

[Martin Maaskant]

He said it on Dutch TV just after the race with his head full of emotions. I wouldn't take that to serious.

 

[Boby Kim]

Have I missed it but people keep saying Max said he would rather drive the others off the track but I never heard him say that. Are people making this up?

Nope, he is shouting it around the world. Read it on every news site in The Netherlands. Even Niki Lauda has responded on Max his words.

 

[Boby Kim]

He said it on Dutch TV just after the race with his head full of emotions. I wouldn't take that to serious.

Tell that to the rest of the F1 field and the media. It takes two people to dance the tango.