Tracks Watkins Glen International

[prostradale]

Hi Liski,
Is it this tunnel you are referring to?

In this case, you can find it there at 3:10

Looking forward to your track.
Laurent

 

[Mitja Bonca]

Oh.. Can't wait to try the old version, which we drove so much in GPL. It was the most record lap catching track back than. It was short kinda easy, but on the other hand so hard to get 2 corners right (1st esses and that long right hander). Thumbs up.

 

[LilSki]

Hi Liski,
Is it this tunnel you are referring to?
View attachment 242998
In this case, you can find it there at 3:10

Looking forward to your track.
Laurent

Yeah that is one of them. Which one is hard to tell. By the looks of that one it doesn't seem much different from the ones today. My gut tells me to just leave the current day tunnels as they are. It's a minor detail really especially when driving. Really just the armco being in the right place is the most important.

The tricky part of this project will be the fact I do not have a decent high res aerial image of the track. I had ones for both RIR and Bridgehampton which helps for exact placement of objects. Here will be a bit trial and error unless there is a good aerial hiding somewhere.

In any case thanks for all the help on this. I love learning about old tracks and how they evolved over time. It can be tricky to model a track for a certain year.

 

[gecco]

I had no internet back then. Was hotlapping at home, and then checking my times against the leader boards when visitig my parents on the weekends.
Watkins Glen in the Ferrari was the only combo I managed to get within one or two tenths of the then fastest time. And how many nights I spent and laps I drove trying to clock in a fast lap in Spa is beyond imagoination, it must have been in the hundreds. The expanders I custom fit to my Thrustmaster T1 (anyone still remember this one?) needed replacement every few months...no wife, no kids, almost no obligations,happy times

edit: quite off topic this, sry...

 

[Emery]

Where are these pictures coming from BTW?

Most of the B&W pics are from Nick England: http://www.virhistory.com/cars/race/glen-70-01.htm (heh, I just noticed there are several pages of the 1970 race... I was too focused on the thumbnails!).

The tunnel pic, I don't know. It was one I saved in the past decade when googling.

 

[Ryno917]

The expanders I custom fit to my Thrustmaster T1 (anyone still remember this one?) needed replacement every few months...no wife, no kids, almost no obligations,happy times

That was my first wheel as well! And those damn bungee cords were always breaking. Still, I loved it.

 

[Mauro01]

if it could be useful:

1965:

1968:

1968:

1967 facilities:

1969:

1965:

1969:

 

[LilSki]

if it could be useful:

1965:

1968:

1968:

1967 facilities:

Thanks! the last shot of the Onyx club is very useful!

 

[Mauro01]

added some pics on previous post.

i also found this but i don't know year:

1966:

1967:

1966:

1966:

1967:

1965:

 

[Mauro01]

F1 1967 video:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10156004775471038

 

[Mauro01]

1961 pit:

1962:

1968 box:

1969:

1969:

1969:

that's all

 

[Mauro01]

better resolution:

 

[oneWonders]

1967 sortof aerial:

I'm sure there's a bigger version but as i don't have a gettyimages account.

If you want good historical detail then ask around at srmz.net and places too, they are usually quite helpful for historical stuff.

It would be cool if you'd base it on a version before 1970 rather than 1970 itself. Basically a version before they armcoed the entire circuit (rather than just specific corners) would be a lot more atmospheric and interesting.

Does anyone have a trackside pictures of the loop from those times? The gpl version dips a breathtaking amount compared to modern versions of the track. I am wondering whether this is just due to it being innaccurate or whether they levelled it slightly over the years in view of safety. Maybe it is a bit of both.

Certainly my early impressions of gpl and dying spectacularly dropping down into the loop with way too much speed off into the haybales and over the fence are special memories haha.

 

[LilSki]

1967 sortof aerial:

I'm sure there's a bigger version but as i don't have a gettyimages account.

If you want good historical detail then ask around at srmz.net and places too, they are usually quite helpful for historical stuff.

It would be cool if you'd base it on a version before 1970 rather than 1970 itself. Basically a version before they armcoed the entire circuit (rather than just specific corners) would be a lot more atmospheric and interesting.

Does anyone have a trackside pictures of the loop from those times? The gpl version dips a breathtaking amount compared to modern versions of the track. I am wondering whether this is just due to it being innaccurate or whether they levelled it slightly over the years in view of safety. Maybe it is a bit of both.

Certainly my early impressions of gpl and dying spectacularly dropping down into the loop with way too much speed off into the haybales and over the fence are special memories haha.

GPL is inaccurate at best so don't base anything off of that. Other than making it wider and possibly taking some crown out of the top of the esses the first half of the track didn't change. So what it is now is pretty much what it was then just wider by about 10 feet.

As for which year as I said I prefer the final year something existed, that is just a thing that I like to do. The entire track was not full of armco even in 1970. I understand the romance of GPL and 67 but the final year 1970 is more interesting to me. Overall the difference between 67 and 70 is minimal.

 

[oneWonders]

For me it's not really about GPL, more just lack of armco etc but I know what you mean.

A cool thing the GPL community did with some of their tracks are multiseason updates tracking the changes in circuits for various seasons, you can get 65 - 69 updates for Mexico and Zandvoort for example (there are probably others but I can't remember). It's actually quite fascinating.

But I appreciate that making multiple seasons is more work. It's a great thing for historical documentation though

Anyway, I appreciate anyone making historical circuits. If only the studios making sims still had that passion.

 

[LilSki]

For me it's not really about GPL, more just lack of armco etc but I know what you mean.

A cool thing the GPL community did with some of their tracks are multiseason updates tracking the changes in circuits for various seasons, you can get 65 - 69 updates for Mexico and Zandvoort for example (there are probably others but I can't remember). It's actually quite fascinating.

But I appreciate that making multiple seasons is more work. It's a great thing for historical documentation though

Anyway, I appreciate anyone making historical circuits. If only the studios making sims still had that passion.

Well as I said even 70 has minimal armco. The esses have none except for T1 and the tunnel (same in 67 I believe). Back straight has none until the loop. And most of the second half is bare until final set of turns and second tunnel.

As for multiple seasons it was a simpler time back then. Most objects were very basic and simple to make. Now everything is modeled in 3D so it is easier to pick one year and stick to it. The only time I cheated is when I included the Pirrelli bridge and some of the bleachers on Bridgehampton. They were long gone by the 90s but I wanted to include it anyway so it didn't look as run down as it was.

 

[oneWonders]

Yes I think I was probably confusing 70 with 71 as the interim year. I thought they started safety improvements before the layout change.

I do appreciate that it is a lot more effort though, don't worry. Of course how much depends on how much has changed - in some cases it could be minor. For the gpl tracks it was mainly advertisements, curbs and subtle changes.

I don't necessarily agree with / understand the idea of always choosing the final year of a particular layout, as a lot of things could have changed by then. Both in terms of the track itself.
Better to research and make a track that is most representative of the era you are going for / the track as a whole. Usually that is the early stages of a circuit.

For example, you might not consider widening and elevation removal etc as a new layout but such things make a massive difference.
Take the nordschleife for example, you might say that the "overall layout" didn't change since the introduction of the chicane before the start finish straight in 1967 all the way up to 1982.
However if you were to make a 1982 version of the circuit, what you would end up with is something that is very similar to how the circuit is today and drastically different to how it was in 67 (and years prior).
In fact, the circuit was changed heavily in 1970, although not all of the changes were done at this point. The widening and softening of elevation changes / bumps make huge differences.
Just to highlight how circuits evolve over time, the swooping crests and troughs on the back straight at Döttinger Höhe were still present in 1973, as can be seen in the video footage of the race. It is only later that the whole thing was flattened and desecrated.

Anyway, it is nice to see someone working on historic tracks, thanks!

 

[LilSki]

Yes I think I was probably confusing 70 with 71 as the interim year. I thought they started safety improvements before the layout change.

I do appreciate that it is a lot more effort though, don't worry. Of course how much depends on how much has changed - in some cases it could be minor. For the gpl tracks it was mainly advertisements, curbs and subtle changes.

I don't necessarily agree with / understand the idea of always choosing the final year of a particular layout, as a lot of things could have changed by then. Both in terms of the track itself.
Better to research and make a track that is most representative of the era you are going for / the track as a whole. Usually that is the early stages of a circuit.

For example, you might not consider widening and elevation removal etc as a new layout but such things make a massive difference.
Take the nordschleife for example, you might say that the "overall layout" didn't change since the introduction of the chicane before the start finish straight in 1967 all the way up to 1982.
However if you were to make a 1982 version of the circuit, what you would end up with is something that is very similar to how the circuit is today and drastically different to how it was in 67 (and years prior).
In fact, the circuit was changed heavily in 1970, although not all of the changes were done at this point. The widening and softening of elevation changes / bumps make huge differences.
Just to highlight how circuits evolve over time, the swooping crests and troughs on the back straight at Döttinger Höhe were still present in 1973, as can be seen in the video footage of the race. It is only later that the whole thing was flattened and desecrated.

Anyway, it is nice to see someone working on historic tracks, thanks!

I understand your point and to an extent I agree. But the way I think is the last year before a big change. So In the case of Nords it would have been the last year before say they added the armco or something like that. Not saying my thinking works for everything but so far that is how it has worked out.

 

[ALB123]

I can't imagine driving this track at speed with 10' of track width removed.

 

[Emery]

I can't imagine driving this track at speed with 10' of track width removed.

Don't worry, there's more runoff room, so you can pass in the grass. [except at the bridges... after hitting a slower car (Porsche 906) while attempting a pass at the top of the hill where the first bridge is, John Cannon (Genie Mk 8) got clobbered by Mark Donohue (Lola T-70) and Mark's car went up in flames]