Use road effects in FFB with direct drive wheel?

[Deleted member 963434]

I know road effects is canned effect and i saw not once people tell DD shall not use road effects as its just amplifier of those forces, like those are they already and by increasing it you multiply it.
But then i saw Hamidovic reccomend 15% for fanatic dd2.
I always felt like cars in ACC act more like hovercrafts than cars but yesterday i increased road feel first to 5%, thn 10%, and i set it finally to 20% and i feel not more like car behaviour BUT IM SURPRISED it not only adds road surface detail , or maybe its my placebo now but i feel like better resistance to turn wheel while driving , or i think thats cause wheel vibrates more on road so that vibrations makes me think as its tyre graining on surface and it feel like slight resistance to turn wheel.. i could tell like road effects not only makes us feel track surface but also like steering shaft.. that seems weird a little but working.
so i want ask DD users do you use road feel effect?
yesterday i even increased all effects in AC1 to 20% (road, slip, abs, kerb) and i think same think it kinda adds steering shaft feeling to my wheel.
i would not tell it make me faster but sure it increase immersion.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

Basically with this method you don't have to set the degrees of rotation ingame every time you set them on your wheel when you change cars, because ACC seems to default to the cars rotation if you set the game degrees below, as shown. That's the basic message of that video. I used that method years ago in AC when I still used a Fanatec CSL.

Other than having hard lock I don't see how FFB feel would bee influenced by that at least it didn't in AC back in the day.

so shortly telling you can set :
0 in game and 570 in wheel and you have all cars 570 degree
570 in game and 570 in wheel and you have cars which has 570 degree or less matched but car that has more like 900 degree may be not in synch virtual wheel to real wheel
or is i have now 1180 in game and 1180 in wheel and i have all cars matched but all cars i can turn to 1180 dwegee but them wheels turning to per car degree so to know which car has which degree i must turn 3rd person camera and see how wheels turning to know when i shall stop turning

but TarmacTerrorist idea you can set 0 in game and what you want in wheel even 1180 degree then all car would be 1180 degree ?

 

[Deleted member 963434]

Trust me, I am with you all along. When I promote the use of the actual Nm on the wheel driver from real cars rather than max out to crazy level they treat me like I am crazy, at least in the past.

I have almost 4k h on Kunos SW and I tried it all. Right now I use zero filters whatsoever to get the most out of telemetry except for little dynamic damping.

The issue is that telemetry is car AND track dependent, so I tweak the ffb value on the car's custom file.

Let me also say one thing once for ever, when people say FFB is a driver preference, that is the biggest BS in simracing.

If the SW is right there is only one way to go with a wheel that can deliver up to Nm of what the actual car can deliver and the developer should provide the custom profile for each of those hardware..

Of course, that's the niche of the market, so they don't care, except for rF2 and r3e, but the physics are not as much satisfying.

i telling it for years imagine simracing in future you just connect wheel and no settings it acts as it should. there is shall be no personal preference indeed.
you cant go buy vw golf and tell seller to tweak its ffb for you preference. you must like it or not like it but must adapt to it just like real thing.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

and i tell ACC need either soft lock , to lock us wheels at max rotation, or just info in car setup menu how rotation has car?

speaking of that: you can set this thing i dont remember how its called that you can make tweaks to steering like 15:1, 20:1 etc that 15 degree of steer wheel is 1 degree of front wheels, or 20 degree of steer wheel is 1 degree of front wheels..
i have idea for kunos to add info just above it setting how car has actual lock to lock..
it can be short info "car lock-to-lock: 570 degree" etc.
then i could use 0 in game (as it looks for me working in RRRE currently for me) and set per car lock in wheel. i told i drive only one car but i must agree sometimes i drive porsche cup or gt4. so having that info of car lock-to-lock in car settup is much quicker way than googling it. or i want to drive carreer mode and i dont know which car they want me to drive.
TarmacTerorist idea is nothing new and no discovery of america but some people who want soft lock may dont know they can have hard lock. its nothing to hate him he just help xD And he kinda i must admit told me of better way to have hard lock as previously i though if i want 570 degree hard lock i must set same thing on wheel and in game, but it seems i can just set 0 in game and then per car degree on wheel

 

[StefanoCasillo]

Basically with this method you don't have to set the degrees of rotation ingame every time you set them on your wheel when you change cars, because ACC seems to default to the cars rotation if you set the game degrees below, as shown. That's the basic message of that video. I used that method years ago in AC when I still used a Fanatec CSL.

Other than having hard lock I don't see how FFB feel would bee influenced by that at least it didn't in AC back in the day.

yes.. technically speaking when 0 is set as lock AC/ACC will internally convert it to a default value, which happens to be 400. So 0 and 400 have exactly the same effect.
It's basically a "soft crash" that handles an invalid input value with a default that the UI shouldn't even allow.

From what I see in the code the entire range of lock is mapped to the entire range of the wheel as long as the lock is less than the car lock.. so with 0/400 this is basically true for pretty much every car.

But that's pretty much where the magic ends.

 

[StefanoCasillo]

BTW I totally understand the idea behind using this trick to get the entire range mapped so that hard locks will work.

And sorry to @Tarmac Terrorist for coming so hard at him, but I am really not a fan of this kind of clickbait approach.

To answer to the original @dario993 question.. as already posted, the only "physically correct" value for additional effects is 0... regardless of what kind of wheel you use... anything else is purely subjective.
Those vibrations should not be mapped to a rotation left/right torque.. period.. . unless the market offers wheels with shaking motions up/down/left/right mapping these vibrations to the wheel rotation is the only possibility.

Set it to whatever you want and whatever makes you happy.. there's no "correct" value other than 0.

 

[Gevatter]

so shortly telling you can set :
0 in game and 570 in wheel and you have all cars 570 degree
570 in game and 570 in wheel and you have cars which has 570 degree or less matched but car that has more like 900 degree may be not in synch virtual wheel to real wheel
or is i have now 1180 in game and 1180 in wheel and i have all cars matched but all cars i can turn to 1180 dwegee but them wheels turning to per car degree so to know which car has which degree i must turn 3rd person camera and see how wheels turning to know when i shall stop turning

but TarmacTerrorist idea you can set 0 in game and what you want in wheel even 1180 degree then all car would be 1180 degree ?

No, if you set 0 in game, the car you choose will have its correct steering ratio because the game cannot set steering below the car's degrees of rotation, and if you know that value, you can match your wheel to it and have snychronized your wheel to the game and also have hardstops at the end of the steerting range. The positive with Tarmac's method is that you don't have to adjust the game settings for every car, only your wheel. You still need to know the value of each car of course.

Example: car has 540°
If you set your game and wheel to 1180, the game and wheel are sync, but you have no hardstops at 540 and can turn your wheel further.
If you set your game and wheel to 540, the game and wheel are sync and you will have hardstops at 540.
If you set the game to 0 it will in this example match the car at 540. Set the wheel to 540 as well and it will behave like the 2nd example above.
If you set the game to 0 and the wheel to anything else then 540, your game and wheel will not be sync.

 

[Tarmac Terrorist]

speaking of that: you can set this thing i dont remember how its called that you can make tweaks to steering like 15:1, 20:1 etc that 15 degree of steer wheel is 1 degree of front wheels, or 20 degree of steer wheel is 1 degree of front wheels..
i have idea for kunos to add info just above it setting how car has actual lock to lock..
it can be short info "car lock-to-lock: 570 degree" etc.
then i could use 0 in game (as it looks for me working in RRRE currently for me) and set per car lock in wheel. i told i drive only one car but i must agree sometimes i drive porsche cup or gt4. so having that info of car lock-to-lock in car settup is much quicker way than googling it. or i want to drive carreer mode and i dont know which car they want me to drive.
TarmacTerorist idea is nothing new and no discovery of america but some people who want soft lock may dont know they can have hard lock. its nothing to hate him he just help xD And he kinda i must admit told me of better way to have hard lock as previously i though if i want 570 degree hard lock i must set same thing on wheel and in game, but it seems i can just set 0 in game and then per car degree on wheel

Thanks mate, really appreciate you kind words! I was pretty sure some other folks had probably figured this out as there's alot of clever souls out there in the community, but I thought for those like me who had'nt previously know it, it was worth sharing. The best result I could have hoped for was that it made life a little easier for ACC drivers and that it would put as big a smile on their face as it has mine, so i've been well chuffed with some of the feedback i've gotten. And yeah its not a massive thing or discovery but, its one of those tiny changes which has actually made a world of difference for me, that and im easily exited by simple little things like this so I tend to get very enthusiastic about them. Cheers again mate!

 

[Tarmac Terrorist]

BTW I totally understand the idea behind using this trick to get the entire range mapped so that hard locks will work.

And sorry to @Tarmac Terrorist for coming so hard at him, but I am really not a fan of this kind of clickbait approach.

To answer to the original @dario993 question.. as already posted, the only "physically correct" value for additional effects is 0... regardless of what kind of wheel you use... anything else is purely subjective.
Those vibrations should not be mapped to a rotation left/right torque.. period.. . unless the market offers wheels with shaking motions up/down/left/right mapping these vibrations to the wheel rotation is the only possibility.

Set it to whatever you want and whatever makes you happy.. there's no "correct" value other than 0.

Cheers mate, flacks always heaviest when your right over the target in'it!

There aint nuthin clickbaity about it, it is what it is, simply a video about really enjoying the sim (I don't make video's about sims I don't really like) and a little trick i found that works well for me and i only replied to Dario as it seemed relevent to his question (even though i dont have a DD wheel, but CSW is closest thing to it in my budget).

Thankyou for such an amazing sim! I've stuck with it for a long time now and have watched it improve again and again over that time, got all the content, and am very fond of the British GT pack, best version of Oulton Park i've ever driven on! I can't tell you how much im enjoying it now! I enjoyed it even before discovering the lock trick but the wheel turning past the actual lock of the onscreen wheel was becoming a real bugbear for me. Now Im as happy as a V8 at a full petrol pump! Its really is an impressive work this sim.

Seeing as we're talking, I hope you don't mind me asking a couple of questions.

Are there any plans to include an automatic softlock in the software in future, is it possible?

This one is not so much sim related. There is absoloutely nuthin wrong with ACC's into music, but don't you think it would sound better with you shredding out a blistering solo on top, or have you ever been temped to make a youtube video of you shredding along to the intro music? I think that would be v cool!

 

[Tarmac Terrorist]

Actually just going back and having a listen to the menu music, I think its in Am, quite good fun throughing the odd sweep over it (nuthin like you're capable of but fun never the less). Dm7, F, C, and a G in there i think? Hmm, an idea is forming!

 

[StefanoCasillo]

Seeing as we're talking, I hope you don't mind me asking a couple of questions.

Are there any plans to include an automatic softlock in the software in future, is it possible?

This one is not so much sim related. There is absoloutely nuthin wrong with ACC's into music, but don't you think it would sound better with you shredding out a blistering solo on top, or have you ever been temped to make a youtube video of you shredding along to the intro music? I think that would be v cool!

thx
Sadly, since I left Kunos Simulazioni more than one year ago I wouldn't know what to tell you about future developments.

The entire force feedback situation on Windows is a bit sad because the current common API DirectInput has been deprecated by Microsoft years ago. And sadly that API doesn't come with functionalities to set hard locks in the wheels. In order to do that devs have to integrate various vendor speciific SDKs and end up with separate unique code paths for every manufacturers out there.. perhaps even different models from the same manufacturers which is not really a nice proposition... but it looks like the only option moving forward.

 

[Tarmac Terrorist]

thx
Sadly, since I left Kunos Simulazioni more than one year ago I wouldn't know what to tell you about future developments.

The entire force feedback situation on Windows is a bit sad because the current common API DirectInput has been deprecated by Microsoft years ago. And sadly that API doesn't come with functionalities to set hard locks in the wheels. In order to do that devs have to integrate various vendor speciific SDKs and end up with separate unique code paths for every manufacturers out there.. perhaps even different models from the same manufacturers which is not really a nice proposition... but it looks like the only option moving forward.

Wow! did''nt realise you left that long ago. Oh well thats all a little over my head but it does sound like a pretty fair amount of work. Shame as would be great to have the softlock, but i can get by without it for now, very happy now anyway, already spending a heck of alot more time driving ACC. Cheers!

 

[Tarmac Terrorist]

I think Stefano was just pointing out to misguided advise of using Steer Lock 0.

Although not so misguided as it turns out eh mate!

 

[Tarmac Terrorist]

No, if you set 0 in game, the car you choose will have its correct steering ratio because the game cannot set steering below the car's degrees of rotation, and if you know that value, you can match your wheel to it and have snychronized your wheel to the game and also have hardstops at the end of the steerting range. The positive with Tarmac's method is that you don't have to adjust the game settings for every car, only your wheel. You still need to know the value of each car of course.

Example: car has 540°
If you set your game and wheel to 1180, the game and wheel are sync, but you have no hardstops at 540 and can turn your wheel further.
If you set your game and wheel to 540, the game and wheel are sync and you will have hardstops at 540.
If you set the game to 0 it will in this example match the car at 540. Set the wheel to 540 as well and it will behave like the 2nd example above.
If you set the game to 0 and the wheel to anything else then 540, your game and wheel will not be sync.

Spot on mate!

 

[DrRob]

@dario993 :
Since a few weeks I tested road effects from 0% to 10% and left it at 10% on a SC2Pro for the moment. So far I am liking it. A few subtle effects on straightaways, but nothing outrageous (I like subtle!).
Having said that, I change settings from time to time (also in SC2 profile) and so far I could adapt to any of the (sensible!) changes I did with comparable lap times.

 

[Johan van den Hoven]

Using a setting of 15% road effects changes ACC for me from driving kinda dead to a more realistic feeling. The mention that these effects might wash out some more important steering feedback makes me going to retest the 0% setting (that seems to be widely in use).

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Example: car has 540°
If you set your game and wheel to 1180, the game and wheel are sync, but you have no hardstops at 540 and can turn your wheel further.
If you set your game and wheel to 540, the game and wheel are sync and you will have hardstops at 540.
If you set the game to 0 it will in this example match the car at 540. Set the wheel to 540 as well and it will behave like the 2nd example above.
If you set the game to 0 and the wheel to anything else then 540, your game and wheel will not be sync.

Necro bump, but isn't 0 the same as 400 as Stefano pointed out?
Meaning with 0 you will be in sync with hard stop only with 400 at wheel with 400 car DOR.

 

[Gevatter]

Necro bump, but isn't 0 the same as 400 as Stefano pointed out?
Meaning with 0 you will be in sync with hard stop only with 400 at wheel with 400 car DOR.

No because he also pointed out this in the same post:
"From what I see in the code the entire range of lock is mapped to the entire range of the wheel as long as the lock is less than the car lock.. so with 0/400 this is basically true for pretty much every car."

In truth I have no idea what exactly happens internally in the game(s). All I can say is that it works for me, setting the game to 0 and the wheel to whatever the car's DOR is syncs the wheels. @Havner made a Simhub plugin for ACC that sets the wheel DOR automatically to match the car you choose, and CM does it for AC. I've been using the method for years like I said, it works.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

As long as car specific DOR is the subset of the max degree set in game it works for any range set, 0 aka 400, max 1200 or anything in between.
It is 1:1 mapping for effective range, and after that extra rotation has no effect as there are no bumpstops.
I am not familiar with ACC plugin, but assume it just sets bumpstops matching car DOR, similar to what CM does, meaning you can max out DOR in game, match in TD and just enjoy hard stops derived from car specific DOR, no need for voodoo 0 number.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Interesting, just installed that plugin, code for SC is exact copy from CM.
It does behave weird at max degree (1200) with visual mismatch between virtual and physical wheel. At 0 and 400 it works right though and exactly the same, seems like some oddity with how plugin is coded.

The interesting thing that in AC setting both TD and game to the max (1180) produces proper result. So looks like that 0/400 tweak is ACC specific. And code exactly the same as I mentioned, except in ACC line that logs degree set is commented out.

EDIT: Definitely something off with this ACC plugin, as with it disabled virtual and physical rotation match at 1200 max dor in game and TD, and with it enabled it is way off. This is different from how AC plugin work. Not sure I want to keep it with such fishy behavior it might be causing some range compression, FFB does feel a bit different.