TT Isle of Man - The Game

[Damage Inc]

Just thought I'd say when I did my post I had a BAD time with the game and was really frustrated! Almost every other aspect of the game is brilliant, the sulby straight alone and the visceral feeling of "FARK ME" I get EVERY time at that point is worth it alone!

Had a better time yesterday and it links in with what Duc say about MS games, (I defo do not hold MS games up as the best bike physics (just thought I'd clarify that! ) But I feel the mid corner correction (steering with the throttle), steering smoothness, and depiction of what happens when things go wrong are much better. I fully agree and realise the overall tyre grip is FAR too high in the MS game). I realised that I always have a better time with IOM TT when I play it first..and THEN play a MS game (at the mo Ride 2). If I play Ride 2 first then play IOM TT I really struggle as I'm doing what I've been doing in Ride 2 and that does NOT work in IOM TT!!

Try all aids off except for abs at maximum. See if that makes a difference in any way Mr Damage.
edit: just try it and see if it's easier.

I'll defo try that, cheers Andy.

Lift oversteer I don't think this game is that complex, But I guess I know what you mean.
Now I have tried Body weight shifting in the game ,and have discovered how much influence it has.
I will try and explain.
When you come at high speed on a real bike and wants to brake down for a corner -your arms will stretch and your body will move slightly backwards ( stabilising the rear ) .
The Game wants you to do this --if you don't the bike will do what you call lift oversteer .1.you lift the gas.
2. you Brake---the game discovers you haven't moved back --it throws you off ( feels like lift oversteer )
After using weight shifting --when I move back and brake , the brake distance is HALF of what it used to be --when I move forward under acceleration even on the Suter 500 the front wheel stays down no matter what gear your in. So moving the body in this game have a HUGE influence on the driving.
The closest you come to lift oversteer on a Bike is when you have a V2 for example high capacity 1000 cc ( Suzuki made a model before the SV 1000 that could do this if not careful ) close the gas to abrupt from high revs --and the engine braking could lock up the rear wheel...

Thanks for the help but it's not what's happening to me. That's all braking zone and I have no issues (other than my own mistakes which I understand and don't mind!).

This is all happening mid corner whilst leaning, bikers don't sit back whilst leaning (at least I never did!), only crashes I have in the braking zone are locking the front from too hard brake application (my fault), or hitting a bump whilst braking (my fault need to learn the bumps), neither times does the bike act like a bike with the front locked though!

What happens is I brake to what I think is a reasonable speed, tip the bike in realise mid corner I'm carrying too much speed, lift off the throttle, bike rear end comes round and I spear into the hedge/wall. On rare occasions I don't even lift, but I think that's just taking too much corner speed, but again the bike spears me into the hedge wall.

And I must stress, the hedge/wall I spear into is the inside hedge/wall. I'm pretty certain that when a bikes tyre gives out the bike will follow the line of centrifugal force to the outside. This game doesn't seem to do that.

 

[Damage Inc]

To me it feels like the lean-angle of the bike is disconnected from the physics in a way that makes the whole thing feel weird.
Now I know this is my personal oppinion/theory and that's hard to compare any real world experience with different bikes to playing a game/sim with an controller, but I have some real world experience driving road bikes at speed around tight corners, so I'll just compare what I feel and tell you my personal thoughts about it.
Back to the lean-angle; what I meant is that my suspicion is that the lean-angle is calculated as a result of speed and controller input that then determines the corner radius, and the the lean is derived as a result of that, instead of the other way around. Like this:
Speed + control input = corner radius -> appropriate lean-angle
Instead of:
Speed + control input = lean-angle -> corner radius
And I also get the feeling that rear wheel slip and everything else is calculated before lean-angle and that's why it feels so strange when the rear looses grip and you have very little chance of recovering, even if it can be done.
Someone said it before and I think its partly true; they adjusted car-physics to resemble bike physics, and then threw some lean-angle calculations on top of that.
This might all be completely wrong from my end, but I dont know anything about programming physics so I just want to share the feeling I get when playing the game.
And don't get me wrong, I love the game and I enjoy it immensely, I just would love to get some better and more natural feeling when riding around this amazing track.

Something is defo up with the steering, it just doesn't feel smooth, or linear...dunno if there is some speed sensitivity issues with steering as well. I feel a bit like how Maverick Viñales must feel (without the talent of course!). I just have no confidence in the bike at all.

Good points presented by both of you, I think.

But, for a start, I wouldn't look at Milestone games as some kind of landmark for motorcycles physics - while very, very decent in that regard (MotoGP2017 is quite alright, IMO), it easy to see/feel that all MotoGP, WSBK, and RIDE game series have been made to be easily aproached (i.e, slightly "arcadey" on purpose).

Look at GPBikes if you want pretty darn good physics, both in realism and "feeling". IMHO, it does crush anything out there in that department. But then it doesn't have any single-player features worthy of consideration, and it's locked in perpetual "beta" stage (born to suffer a slow-death, I guess).
Even the jurassic GP500 in simulation mode (ridiculously old as it is, dates back to 1999) can be a better example of a simulation game with good interpretation of motorcycle physics (at least if comparing to most games that Milestone did, post SBK2001), but then I'm probably biased by the nostalgia.

And I think this is why IOM-TT is making so much noise lately - it combines a few elements of difficulty and realism that have been missing for many, many years. Kind of what GP500 and SBK2001 did at launch, both of which are closing to two decades now. There hasn't been anything like them since.
And it's why IOM-TT, even with all its problems, feels refreshing and far more appealing to me than anything Milestone has done in the last decade.


Besides what I mentioned in 1st post, what I think IOM-TT is missing most is the feel of suspension - it feels extremely stiff. Strangely so, almost as if there's no suspension at all.
And, in that, I also agree with the comments pointing to a suspicious usage of car physics base in this game. There are some really odd things, physics wise, in the way the bike's overall reactions work in this game (suspension, tyres, brakes, weight transfer and traction).
Also, I understand those mentioning that it's impossible to judge with a gamepad, being absurdly far from what you do IRL over a motorcycle, but I'd say we can use it and still make pretty good judgement on what is right and wrong in a motorcycle simulation, so long as you're making use of analog steering, throtle and brakes, and FFB/vibration. (EDIT: the post right above this one by Sinner_McSaint is a very good aproach to the matter)
BTW, I can't seem to understand why a Honda CBR600RR would be so different (and easier) than a Yamaha R6, or a Kawa ZX6R for that matter, and why on earth a Triumph 675R handles so "sluggish" in comparison to those, when it's the opposite IRL.


I can agree that's a great idea to increase the challenge of the game, but could never agree with that being a realistic aproach. Actually, the exact opposite in terms of the actual simulation.
Especially in the case of the 1000cc SUPERBIKE class, things like Anti-Wheelie and Traction-Control are allowed and certainly used in the competicion by all riders in the class (with varying degrees, depending on individual). And those are the bits that, IMHO, this game (IOM-TT) got right - like in real life, at some point these (legitimate) rider aids stop being a comfortable way to increase overall performance and safety, and start being felt as a nuissance, very intrusive and "not-fun".

Yup as I say above I don't hold MS games as the ultimate in bike phyics! Too much tyre grip overall I feel so loss of traction is only attained when grossly riding OTT, but the underlying way the games handle these moments is correct IMO, the tolerance for when these moments occur should be lowered, that's about it.

I'd love to get more into GPbikes but as you say it's has no SP and I'm 100% SP focussed. It's really sad as I have enjoyed farting about with the "demos" Ive tried over the years.

Thing is though a bike game does NOT transfer well to a game pad, cars yeah...because what does a driver physically do to steer, it's just turn that wheel turn it left and right. The turning process of a bike is vastly more complex, weight on pegs, countersteering, subtle body movements, you can adjust your steering line by a multitude of different body movements...how on earth do you equate that to left/right on a thumbstick? You can't end of story. I think bikes games need to tone things down a bit for the fun factor, but control only....tyre phsyics and what happens on the edge of grip and when that happens is more key IMO. I cannot ever remember actually thinking what I was doing to turn a bike, I basically looked where I wanted to go and just did what I needed to do, quickly learnt that the best way to avoid a problem on the road is to NOT look at it, look at the escape route/where you need to go to avoid!!!

I think pretty much we all agree that the rear end needs working on.. Definitely I would say for all of the reasons voiced by people. Atm it does in its behaviour on the "limit" lack realism in its "feel" and its behaviour. Turning off the assists and managing body position does help with things though I think as people have said. But yes there's maybe some car physics mixed in there. I don't think this physics model was made from scratch. I think it was evolved from their car racing games.. That's my guess anyway.

Also, personally, I would say don't forget about the front end either. I want the front to "tuck" more easily if I overdo it on the brake when trailing it in..

Tyre physics? This is maybe part of the problem with the front and back end of the bike also? That's where I personally think gp500 by Melbourne House shone and this improved imo the behaviour and "feel" of the front and rear of the bikes in that game.

Suspension? I agree this also is most probably detracting somewhat from the accuracy and "feel" of the physics.

It's sort of close to being really good in my opinion. Six months more of development focused upon the physics modelling and it could be brilliant.

Having said all that I am really happy that this game exists and I am loving the experience, with a few (arguably quite serious) niggles in terms of its physics model, of racing on it. If it suddenly did not exist any longer and it was all a figment of my imagination I would miss it quite a lot I think.. Actually a heck of a lot if I am honest.

"Midge"

Yup the front defo needs looking at, although I noticed whilst experimenting that the supersports and superbikes behave differently. Now I know you can't do a burnout (same with MS games...GET it right devs!!). I could manipulate the bikes to skoot along with the front locked up, then I leaned over, the 600s take a LOT of abuse before they finally fall over (I could weave side to side for a bit), the Superbikes however fall over almost immediately (seems more real to me, ignoring the fact that I could push the bike along with full brakes on). But I do really hate the upright locking up behaviour of the fronts. so bad.

But yeah, despite it's phyics flaws I'm still in the main having a blast.

 

[Damage Inc]

Well on my Nemesis (Tyrone) track I actually managed a 6 lap race v easy Ai (don't judge me LOL, I won by a mile ) without a single crash! It helped that I didn't have to push too hard. I know it's not the jist of what my original post is about (TT course) but I'm almost as chuffed!!

 

[ChickenBoy18]

so this game's devs actively make youtube ban someone who shared a hotlap video with their game? i'm not a very Clever man and i know it's their right, but i don't think it could be a good marketing plan for a little game like this

That’s absurd. Why on earth would they do that?

 

[farjam]

That’s absurd. Why on earth would they do that?

seems it happened for "JimmyBroadbent" a simracer/youtuber/streamer after sharing a gameplay video (an onboard lap) and now he has to stream only on twitch (seems youtube gave him 90 days ban or stream ban or something after a copyright claim that i'm not sure who did that exactly but it happended for that TT isle of man video)

seems the issue fixed now after he talked to youtube and the claim released...
https://twitter.com/JimmyBroadbent/status/985812625761165312

 

[Kenny Paton]

It wasn't the devs, it was Duke Marketing, they are a film company specialising in motorsports, so most likely a misunderstanding.

 

[Damage Inc]

didn't that happen with GTsport recently with a loads of uploaded replays being removed by Youtube because of some french TV company doing GTS esports stuff?

 

[s00zster]

It wasn't the devs, it was Duke Marketing, they are a film company specialising in motorsports, so most likely a misunderstanding.

Perhaps it just goes to show just how accurate the in-game track is? Even Duke Marketing can't tell the difference!

 

[Stig Bidstrup]

It wasn't the devs, it was Duke Marketing, they are a film company specialising in motorsports, so most likely a misunderstanding.

Yes I know them very well Bought my first Motorsport video there in the mid eighties ( VHS ).
and guess what it was --TT Isle of Man onboard with Joey Dunlop ( V Four Victory ) .
I sent the money in a normal envelope , got the tape 3 weeks later .
it was before Mobil phones , Internet , and PayPal...

 

[Kenny Paton]

My first Dukes were VHS as well and I think it was Jimmy Mcrae Manx rally footage.

 

[farjam]

thanks for extra info guys (i should edit my last post and change the "devs" word with "a motorsport video company" , right?)
seems it's ends as a unwanted good marketing plan (like the game is so real that motorsport video companies mistakes about it)
just if your are curious what was the video itself (not that exact video, but he have tried to somehow repeat it like last time) that cause this misunderstanding : video

 

[ChickenBoy18]

Update hit Xbox today, c. 280 MB. Not noticed much difference yet but haven’t ridden superbikes yet post patch. It does seem to have made online mode a bit unstable. Been thrown out of the game twice now after races when heading back to the lobby.

 

[ChickenBoy18]

Yes I know them very well Bought my first Motorsport video there in the mid eighties ( VHS ).
and guess what it was --TT Isle of Man onboard with Joey Dunlop ( V Four Victory ) .
I sent the money in a normal envelope , got the tape 3 weeks later .
it was before Mobil phones , Internet , and PayPal...

Oh mate I grew up on Duke videos. I used to watch all the Trials ones. This is Trials, all the Steve Colley vids etc. And didn’t Duke make the Havoc videos? I loved them as a kid.

This is Karting as well. Had an 8 year old Jenson Button featured quite heavily in it, saying he wants to be F1 champion some day LOL.

 

[pk500]

Now that the Xbox One patch is out, I'm curious to know what PS4 and PC players who also use gamepads are using for steering sensitivity settings?

Wheel users can post, too, but please specify whether you're using a wheel or pad when you post your settings.

Thanks!

 

[DucFreak]

For this and a few other PC games I'm using an MSI Force GC30, which is kind of a newer (and good) iteration/clone of an Xbox360 gamepad (actually seen by the OS as an X360 controller).

I use steering on analog left stick, throttle and brake on R/L analog triggers respectively.
ATM these are my controller sensitivity settings:

• Acceleration sensitivity --------- 5%
• Acceleration dead zone -------- 0%
  
  
• Brake sensitivity ------------------ 5%
• Brake dead zone ----------------- 0%
  
  
• Steering sensitivity -------------- 15%
• Steering dead zone ------------- 0%

FWIW, currently using rider assistances as listed here:
https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/controller-assists-survey.149183/#post-2731071

 

[DucFreak]

FWIW, I only like to ride the Supersports (love each for different reasons), currently with the following assistances:

• ABS ---------------------- 'Low'
• Traction-Control ---- 'Off'.
• Anti-wheelie ---------- 'Medium' (if on a CBR600RR I tend to set it at 'Low')
• Anti-stoppie ---------- 'Low'
• Race line --------------- 'Off'
• Brake method ------- 'Split' (hardly use the rear though, which serves also as clutch)
  
• Transmission -------- 'Manual'

 

[Damage Inc]

Master Chicken I have to wholeheartedly agree with Cruickshanks and Union Mills I LOATH those corners!! I also am not fond of the left hander after Cruickshanks and there's a couple of right handers in the section after that hairpin a bit after Cruickshanks that I hate. I have a love/hate relationship with sulby bridge too, every 10 laps or so I just miss my braking point and it's game over man.

as for corners I love....well as mentioned Bray Hill (the start in general) is a standout, but in reality I just love the entire course for being a bad*** mo**erfu**er that takes no prisoners and spits me out like a chew toy. Oh that corner where you skim the wall, seen that on tv so many times and to finally see it from the riders perspective is awesome.

edit..oh yeah (looking at the map!) signpost corner is a beeeeeyatch and those fiddly corners right at the end.

 

[Damage Inc]

Duc..I've tried steering sensitive that low but find I sacrifice to much small correction ability, I'm yo-yoing between 20% and 30% at the mo.

Is it better to have accel sensitivy that low? I've never run less than 10 (same with brakes). Oh well I'm off to test your settings!

Edit....well throttle and brake are better than what I had 40% accel and 15% brake, but I couldn't get on with that low a steering sensitivity.

 

[Andy_J]

I have got loads Duke Marketing VHS's (only motorcycle and TT ones). I play them in my man cave (garage) when I'm working on my bikes. Yes I still have a VHS player linked to a 42" TV in the garage.

 

[pk500]

Well, the Xbox One patch ... Appreciate the adjustable steering sensitivity and rider animation tweaks, but anyone who thinks the physics have changed one bit needs to lay off the lager.

A few bumps maybe have been smoothed in the road, but the wonky rear tire physics remain.

Fingers crossed Kylotonn addresses this in a future patch.