The International Manufacturers Championship '67

IMC '67 · Oct 5, 2023

The Sebring Speciale isn't listed as a "Speciale" in the official entry list and looks just like a standard Fulvia HF, but since the car was entered in a prototype class and that it's impossible to get close to the real car's 1967 qualifying lap time when driving a standard HF Fulvia in game, I have come to the conclusion that it must have been a "Speciale".

The Sebring car had a yellow painted front and rear while the Targa Florio car was painted blue in those areas. Screenshot from a YouTube clip...

modeewy25 · Oct 5, 2023

I find curious that the car had GT markings. Seems like the initial plan was to enter the car in the GT class, but somehow ended in the Prototype class.

modeewy25 · Oct 5, 2023

I think a reason for the Prototype classification of the car was the fact that they didn't homologate in time the Fulvia 1.3 Rallye/HF. I found in the FIA Database the homologations from 1967, and the earliest one started in April, 2 of 1967. The race itself was held in April 1, 1967.

FIA Historic Database

historicdb.fia.com

Also, I see that you are using the stock 38l fuel tank, but there was the homologated option for an enlarged 80l fuel tank, more appropiate for a racing/endurance car.

IMC '67 · Oct 5, 2023

modeewy25 said:
I find curious that the car had GT markings. Seems like the initial plan was to enter the car in the GT class, but somehow ended in the Prototype class.

Yeah, I noticed that too although the GT marking on the car wasn't the Sebring official one which looked like this:

IMC '67 · Oct 5, 2023

modeewy25 said:
Also, I see that you are using the stock 38l fuel tank, but there was the homologated option for an enlarged 80l fuel tank, more appropiate for a racing/endurance car.

I'm aware that the stock fuel tank most likely wasn't used but hadn't been able to find any other specs so thanks for that info.

IMC '67 · Oct 5, 2023

I've decided to skip the whole Speciale scenario for Sebring since I can now match the real car's 1967 qualifying lap time after updating the engine specs for the standard Fulvia HFs.

IMC '67 · Oct 6, 2023

Some pics of the car around Sebring...

IMC '67 · Oct 6, 2023

And I must say that my Sebring track update is starting to look pretty good.

Durge Driven · Oct 6, 2023

IMC '67 said:
Some additional stuff on the philosophy of the game...

There is no adjustable AI difficulty level as the AI do authentic 1967 lap times for each race event. And of course there are no driving aids whatsoever. Also no HUD overlays either. Race position info when driving is coming from the pitboard just like in real life. Fuel load, RPMs, temperatures etc. can all be monitored from the various gauges on the car dashboards.

Minimum race length is 50% of the real 1967 race distances. So no more clueless 24 hour races done in an hour...

Forced 1967 weather conditions for all events meaning that for instance the Spa 1000 km race is always held under pretty heavy rain conditions from start to finish.

No more "game" references in the game, e.g. SAVE GAME is now labeled SAVE EVENT instead. Also substituted various non-60's or non-racing labels like the SHOWROOM is now called CAR DISPLAY.

This is best description besides my own when trying to explain my philosophy of how a hardcore sim should be designed. I am meaning just one sim and engine. I don't expect all sims and engines to do this.

Simplest thing no horns, even though they are used online I would not have them as they ruin the immersion. It's little things like that make the difference to me because they help keep you in the moment.

I think of how much you could cut out of engine development is insane
where the time could be better spent.

I sick of hearing so called pro simmers complain about UI design, having things like this drive development is ridiculous along with dozens of other things a real hardcore sim does not need.

P.S. Lastly before someone blurts it out.
Being able to turn off unrealistic features is not the same thing, not even close.

IMC '67 · Oct 11, 2023

#36 • Patrick/Mitter • Porsche 910 • Porsche Auto

I've got the trust from Stuttgart to replace Gerhard Mitter and co-drive one of the two Porsche 910s with Scooter Patrick for the 1967 Sebring 12 hours event. In the video below, I'm getting a great start but after things have settled, I try to chase down the Scuderia Brescia Ford GT40 of Nino Vaccarella but not quite getting there. (The car was 1.5 seconds faster than my Porsche in the real 1967 qualy). In front of him you can sometimes see the blue, local Florida, Baker Racing Team Porsche 906E which was over two seconds faster than the best of the four works Porsches (!) in the real session.

#19 • Vaccarella/Maglioli • Ford GT40 Mk I • Brescia Corse Team

#44 • Kolb/Baker/Cutler • Porsche 906E • Baker Racing Team

Sebring is known for being a really bumpy track and I'm almost getting an epileptic attack when running down the long concrete straights. The game track now has several different "fake" physical track surfaces with the newly laid asphalt for the new for 1967 Green Park section naturally being the smoothest. Also note that the white painted don't-cut-corner tires are full collision targets for the player but not for the AI, which is a good thing as they would otherwise have crashed a lot. Below is another dangerous crash potential at the 1967 event...

IMC '67 · Oct 12, 2023

Also the sand banks are now "activated" and one can get really stuck if screwing up a turn but it's sometimes also possible to actually get the car back on track although it can take a while and quite a lot of skills and effort. And spinning wheels. Photo from the 1966 race...

IMC '67 · Oct 17, 2023

The most well-known sand bank incident during the 1967 championship must be the White Elephant at Le Mans...

Poor guy Ricardo Rodriguez (not Pedro's brother who also had the name Ricardo but was killed in 1962).

IMC '67 · Oct 18, 2023

Although I'm not really a 3D car modeler, I really had to do something about the shape of the original wheel arches. I've also removed the exhaust pipes and made the side windows less tall. (Yeah, I know the original 3D model body shape isn't the most accurate but the car is still a must have in the game).

Original

Improved

Le Mans 1967

No visible exhaust pipes

IMC '67 · Oct 18, 2023

The rear is where the original 3D car model really shines...

And I just realized that I haven't mentioned it's a Ferrari for anyone who thought it was a Porsche.

IMC '67 · Oct 19, 2023

I got tired of the symmetric, short time backfire flames on many of the original cars and have started to experiment to get something more period correct. Extra important now that I have CrewChief installed, with all the AI competitors also being able to spit flames.

It's not easy to find photos of 1960's sportscars backfiring but on these sequential two, of the Chaparral 2F downshifting for the La Source hairpin at Spa during the 1967 practice, you can see how the flames are both asymmetric and going on for longer than just a split second.

IMC '67 · Oct 24, 2023

Historically correct 1967 Targa Florio grid format not present in any GTR2 version of the track I've seen. Race start at 8 o'clock in the morning...

And here's the "starting order" in game based on the real cars' lap times at the 1967 race...

P     #     Driver          Car                     Class

1    224    Vaccarella      Ferrari 330 P3/4        P+2.0

2    220    Müller          Ferrari 412 P           P+2.0

3    226    Mitter          Porsche 910/8           P+2.0

4    218    Siffert         Porsche 910/8           P+2.0

5    222    Hill            Chaparral 2F            P+2.0

6    156    Klass           Ferrari Dino 246 S      P+2.0

7    170    de Adamich      Alfa Romeo T33          P2.0

8    174    Cella           Porsche 910             P2.0

9    190    Bonnier         Alfa Romeo T33          P2.0

10   228    Hawkins         Porsche 910/8           P+2.0    

11   192    Galli           Alfa Romeo T33          P2.0

12   166    Elford          Porsche 910             P2.0

13   184    Maglioli        Porsche 910             P2.0    

14   182    Vinatier        Alpine A210 Renault     P2.0

15   118    Taramazzo       Porsche 906             S2.0

16   126    Schlesser       Ford GT40               S+2.0

17   198    Williams        Ferrari Dino 206 P      P2.0

18   200    Geki            Alfa Romeo T33          P2.0

19   186    Latteri         Ferrari Dino 206 S      P2.0

20   180    Piot            Alpine A110 Renault     P2.0

21   188    Grandsire       Alpine A110 Renault     P2.0

22   130    Greder          Ford GT40               S+2.0

23   214    Federico        Alfa Romeo GTA SA       P+2.0

24    96    Delageneste     Alpine A110 Renault     S1.3

25   142    Buzzetti        Fiat-Abarth 1000 SP     P1.0

26   216    Epstein         Lola T70 Mk.3           P+2.0

27   164    Jansson         Renault R8 Gordini      P2.0

28   178    Munari          Lancia Fulvia HF Spec.  P2.0

29    58    Hanrioud        Porsche 911 S           GT2.0

30   230    Mäkinen         MGB GT Special          P+2.0

31     2    Pinto           Lancia Fulvia HF        GT1.3

32    50    Buchet          Porsche 911 S           GT2.0

33   124    Bouchon         Ferrari 275 GTB/4       S+2.0

34   210    Chemin          Shelby GT350            GT+2.0

35    98    Ferlito         Abarth 1300 OT          S1.3

36    46    Cahier          Porsche 911 S           GT2.0

37    94    Gambero         Abarth 1300 OT          S1.3

38   128    Worswick        Austin-Healey 3000      S+2.0

39    16    Maglioli        Lancia Fulvia HF        GT1.3

40    54    Mackie          Porsche 911 S           GT2.0

41    14    Girardini       Lancia Fulvia HF        GT1.3

42    28    Black & White   Porsche 356B            GT1.6

43   196    Metternich      Austin Mini Cooper S    P2.0

44    10    Goldfinger      Lancia Fulvia HF        GT1.3

45    72    Ravetto         Ferrari 275 GTB/C       GT+2.0

46    52    Facca           Porsche 911 S           GT2.0

47   160    Lo Piccolo      Alfa Romeo Giulia TZ    P2.0

48    12    Amphicar        Lancia Fulvia HF        GT1.3

49     4    Lisitano        Lancia Fulvia HF        GT1.3

50    74    Hofer           Ferrari 250 GT SWB      GT+2.0

51   176    Andreasson      Marcos Mini GT          P2.0

The real race had the slowest car class starting first and the fastest last but that would not be a good idea for the game.

IMC '67 · Oct 25, 2023

IMC '67 said:
And here's the "starting order" in game based on the real cars' lap times at the 1967 race...

Normally I would use the real and easily obtained 1967 qualifying lap times from an event to base AI lap time performance on, but since Targa Florio didn't have any qualifying, I had to gather together a list of 1967 practice and race lap times from printed book sources as well as a few from the internet. For the cars that I haven't been able to find a lap time for, I've made an estimation. And as usual, a fairly good player trying hard and staying focused should be able to match the top AI cars in the same machinery. (It's of course also important to know the whole track and its over 800 corners, just like any other track).

IMC '67 · Oct 27, 2023

133 grueling laps into the race at Daytona and the top five AI cars are still only separated by less than 2 seconds!? Happens more or less on all tracks with any top placed AI car that is not more than around 20 seconds from the lead. As soon as a car among the front runners drops back because of a longer pitstop or being delayed by a lapped car, the other cars at the front starts to slightly slowing down until the delayed car is back among them. I once even drove a 50% (12 full hours) Daytona race where the top three AI on the podium finished within the same second?! WTF?! Anyone got any ideas how to fix this or is this another clueless hardcoded SimBin "feature"? I have tried everything I can think of over the years but to no avail.

Shovas · Oct 27, 2023

IMC '67 said:
View attachment 703453

I once even drove a 50% (12 full hours) Daytona race where the top three AI on the podium finished within the same second?! WTF?! Anyone got any ideas how to fix this or is this another clueless hardcoded SimBin "feature"? I have tried everything I can think of over the years but to no avail.

That's a tough one. Guess you've tried Player Car Equal?

VonDutch AI Tutorial says:

"Player Car Equal": Setting this at 1 results in closer racing both in qualifying and the race. If you set it at 0 you will have more variability in lap times of the AI."

Reminds me of the option in rFactor 2 (AI Limiter iirc) that keeps the field together or spreads it out by the time between each car

There is one other thing. When I removed all Talent RCD files, so that it used default Talent params for every AI, it resulted in what you're seeing. So, that is to say that every AI should have its own Talent RCD and the RCD should represent the real life performance characteristics of that driver and car. Put another way, RCDs determine the relative racing performance between drivers.

IMC '67 · Oct 27, 2023

Yes, I've tried changing Player Car Equal but it doesn't make any difference. The issue is also mainly about the AI as it continue to happen long after I've retired the player car.

The AI performs authentic 1967 lap times in qualification on all the tracks so my .rcd talent files are definitely acknowledged by the game.

I assume everyone has this issue in their GTR2 games but people just don't notice it because of only driving shorter races. I wouldn't be surprised if SimBin created this disgusting feature to always ensure close racing at the front and a fight for the win all the way to the checkered flag.