Tactile feedback beginner

[FusionJohn]

I’m just starting out with tactile feedback and have ordered Behringer NX3000 (for future proofing) and a couple of Reckhorn BS-200i as an initial test thing. Can this combo work? Or would I require a DSP (the 3000 was a lot cheaper than 3000D). I realise the amp is overkill for the Reckhorns but I don’t want to keep replacing amps if I upgrade the transducers.

 

[Mr Latte]

Both Simhub and SimCommander provide much finer control over generated frequencies for 1% of users who actually feel that they need that tuning.
DSP in amp is totally not a must have feature, just get a good brand amp.
Behringer is Chinese made budget grade, not known for the best quality and reliability, with always on noisy active cooling. There are better things around.

Who said it was a "must-have" feature. The advantages of it were described in detail.

Been a while since you had a stab at Behringer. Are you still not over this?
By the way what tactile are you using again?


Any of these?


The difference with a unit like a large BK and no DSP to using one with tuned DSP is HUGE in the low bass potential and performance we can extract from it.

More budget models will not benefit as much in performance output but additional control is a benefit and the point also mentioned is using crossovers to utilise two types of unit to operate better than one.

Whys that?

NONE of the above even taking into account the best models on the market as single units and though they range from RRP of £300 - £700 each will perform over the 1-200Hz bass range as well as we can combine a BK/Dayton Thruster or BK/TST 239 combo controlled with DSP.

Furthermore, scenarios like the BK Mini / BK Gamer having issues with piston panging can be controlled with DSP. Or we can reduce the peak output of TST models at 60-80Hz which can cause reverb, or help reduce the peak at 40-50Hz that many budget models have to help then feel better other frequencies. Now come on, are any of these examples beneficial, whilst certainly not essential?

So to @Andrew_WOT or anyone else, please feel free to tell us good reasons we should be against the idea of using DSP for improved tactile performance and tuning?

To claim that Simvibe and Simhub as tone generators offer good controls, they do so for "generating/creating tones", not for controlling the operational and character output of the tactile hardware being used. Only DSP features will do that, so its a rather stupid thing to say that 1% of people need it. Simply with it you have a much greater range of control how the units operate, without it you simply dont.

 

[Mr Latte]

WOT gone quiet Andrew come on you can do better.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

To claim that Simvibe and Simhub as tone generators offer good controls, they do so for "generating/creating tones", not for controlling the operational and character output of the tactile hardware being used. Only DSP features will do that, so its a rather stupid thing to say that 1% of people need it. Simply with it you have a much greater range of control how the units operate, without it you simply dont.

If said effect is set to be generated at 60Hz, isn't that what essentially goes to transducers?
Missing how amp DSP is better for that, esp. considering limitation of coarse grained (one for all effects) setting you can use.

Are you still building your sim rig, still only seeing close up pictures of same chromed tubes as 5 years ago? Perhaps too busy playing with DSP, I understand.

 

[Mr Latte]

If said effect is set to be generated at 60Hz, isn't that what essentially goes to transducers?
Missing how amp DSP is better for that, esp. considering limitation of coarse grained (one for all effects) setting you can use.

Are you still building your sim rig, still only seeing close up pictures of same chromed tubes as 5 years ago? Perhaps too busy playing with DSP, I understand.

Yes, I can laugh and cry at the time I have spent building a rig, that I can take on the chin as the dig it is intended to be, eh.

Yet how dare you say its the same chrome (tut tut).
Its new chrome tubing that is being used on the current build (lol). The rigs frame/build with the seat and isolation it uses as well as how it incorporates Phillips Hue lighting has spiraled to be over 3K of materials. So, it's not your normal build and why it has also taken time. I will do a thread on it but only when I am ready.

The work on it the past @2-3 years (if that's what you are referring to), It's not just been one rig but experimentation with different design ideas in how incorporating tactile can be pushed further than the norm. When Simhub arrived, then new possibilities and ideas arrived. The current build is the culmination of what was learned over those years. As a project its a hobby in itself for me, so I am quite happy to trundle along with it and yes spent ages testing and trying out tactile configurations or experimenting a lot with that.

Your Query
Two units with 60Hz, okay well tell me how does each unit operate/output the 60Hz frequency?
Does it output it strongly like a TST with great clarity or not that strong like a BK unit? Both are 60Hz but do both offer the same experience using the same software settings?

Try understanding that with DSP we can tune the actual hardware. We cant make a unit that doesn't perform well with certain frequency bands suddenly be amazing with them. We can tweak its performance.

We have learned what hardware is best for specific effect roles or frequency bands. With DSP we can specifically determine from the generated effects what frequencies the transducer only outputs. This can improve the detailing and on some units stop them from heating up so much. It also lets us partner different units to work better together as mentioned above. Simhub changed many limitations Simvibe had and opened new doors.

So we use the things learned that certain make/models will operate with the controlled range we want to use and know it works best at. Then to also apply DSP to tune that to the user's preference in how the frequencies in that units operating range feel. Also as to what may suit their own rigs materials used in how different frequencies come across on it. This varies, so with DSP the user can boost/cut the felt sensation to accommodate the installation.

The DSP is not about changing the source, it's about how the source is output on the hardware on the rig it is installed to. Of course, we can then control the amplitude of specific frequencies to change a unit's operational character. Not just alter gain/volume.

Bottom line, it comes down to being important if the performance of the users tactile is important to them. Or that they want more control over what they feel from the units or tune how those units react with the materials their build has.

Each 3db is @2x the energy. If we take something like 12-20Hz range and apply +10 to +12db to that. on a large BK. Yet we send less boost to other peak frequencies like 40Hz then we benefit with MUCH more energy with those lowest frequencies a normal amp will not achieve but at the same time, unlike volume/gain. We are not boosting all Hz in the same way. It's tailored to the user's preference and importantly the performance abilities of the unit being used.

So with crossover/filtering and PEQ we can get the very best output from the units we are using as time has been spent understanding what the pros/cons of different units are in regards their abilities.

Many hours then go into effect experimentation seeking to find what is the best low bass energy or felt sensations we can achieve which is not possible on single unit/traditional installations or basic single layer effects.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Try understanding that with DSP we can tune the actual hardware. We cant make a unit that doesn't perform well with certain frequency bands suddenly be amazing with them. We can tweak its performance.

I am trying but honestly can't get my head around it, there is no feedback from transducer to amp, how does it tune actual hardware versus tuning frequency upstream in SW.

 

[FusionJohn]

I’m learning a lot about this and will be reading up in other threads to try and cover the basics. This week I’ll be unpacking and installing - hopefully that’s when the understanding starts to kick in. Thanks to everyone who has commented so far. Thanks especially to Mr Latte for sharing the technical detail and expertise.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

And another thing, DSP microchip in power amp converts received analogue signal into digital, performs whatever digital processing specified and reconvert digital back to analogue.
How is it better than operating in original digital domain if you have tools for that?
Also that back and forth conversion, how does it affect quality of the signal and the latency?

 

[Mr Latte]

I am trying but honestly can't get my head around it, there is no feedback from transducer to amp, how does it tune actual hardware versus tuning frequency upstream in SW.

Behringer DSP is used by thousands of people for controlling home cinema subwoofers, also pro-audio musicians/users like bands. I'm sure we've helped sell a lot to tactile fans too. Latency and such issues are not a problem.

Are you talking about EQ APO being applied to the soundcard or Simhub/Simvibe when you say software? Not all DSP will be equal. Just like how a DAW can have audio plugins, those plugins use their own algorithms in how the sound is handled. Some have better features than others.

Each individual Hz the unit can generate can be altered to how it is generated or not generated.
The user has control in altering how the Hz is output based on the operation character of that unit.

Yet if we apply +/- dB at individual Hz levels or apply professional audio-based filtering within a crossover we are altering that frequencies amplitude. This changes the characteristic of how that frequency will now be output compared in relation to how other frequencies of the unit are output.

The unit now is not operating the way it usually does as we are adjusting the output character inline with how we know that unit typically outputs various frequencies. If a unit has an operating peak at 50Hz, then we can reduce only around the 50Hz range to not affect other frequencies. Likewise we can help boost some frequencies a unit struggles to output as clearly. Often its a scenario of reducing the peak frequencies and trying to boost the detail and felt harmonics.

Hardware Characteristics:
What is the operating range of the unit being used lowest-highest Hz? This will vary depending on what the user is using.

Not what the specs say but what the user can feel is usable for their immersion? What is its peak output range, possibly 35Hz - 60Hz? What frequencies is it most strongly with, (40-50Hz) what frequencies is it not so good with (70-100Hz+)?

All those points, you have some degree of calibration and control over with changing the operation character of the unit. Except with Parametric (PEQ) you can do it at individual 1Hz level. Not like fixed-frequency EQ sliders only altering the bands they are set with that traditional EQ uses.

 

[Mr Latte]

And another thing, DSP microchip in power amp converts received analogue signal into digital, performs whatever digital processing specified and reconvert digital back to analogue.
How is it better than operating in original digital domain if you have tools for that?
Also that back and forth conversion, how does it affect quality of the signal and the latency?

You criticise Behringer, do you want to see how much you can spend on DSP processors. So what they have offered for years is quite remarkable to others like Mini DSP. Also car audio has a lot of different brands doing DSP to control and pair how subs/mid/crossovers all work together. Yet again with quite high prices. So why would tactile be any different, that we cant tune it better for the hardware it is being used on and the installation it is being applied to. Really its no different other than we are doing it with a 200Hz range for bass immersion.

Even the best high-end gear costing thousands is now being superseded by software plugins.
I raised the issues EQ APO has to manage to do for how we are using DSP and multi-channels. It too is limited as I doubt it will handle multiple soundcards and placing crossover/eq to individual channels.

My own approach is more upmarket in using pro- audio solutions shared on the forums with IPad Pro and analog-digital audio interfacing but it's doing something with the amount and configuration of tactile it will use that I've not seen anyone do with tactile. My whole rig is kinda like an experiment to some degree.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Let's forget brands, my question was quite simple. I understand that with car audio you have no choice but use onboard media system controls, but for sim racing transducers application when we have access to the software that generate the tones, why delegating that Digital Signal Processing downstream to analogue domain is advantageous. If anything it just adds extra quality degrading conversion step and latency.

 

[Mr Latte]

Let's forget brands, my question was quite simple. I understand that with car audio you have no choice but use onboard media system controls, but for sim racing transducers application when we have access to the software that generate the tones, why delegating that Digital Signal Processing downstream to analogue domain is advantageous. If anything it just adds extra quality degrading conversion step and latency.

Yeah the sound generated out of the soundcard is analogue. An amp or indeed an audio interface converting the audio to digital and back to analogue to output to speakers is not a factor. So why would an onboard chip-based DSP have drawbacks?

If it was a major factor how did we have Dolby Surround Prologic in the 90s
How then also does just about every modern audio interface not only connect multiple analogue sound source/instruments or mics and these get routed to a PC via USB for processing in a DAW and then back from PC to the same interface via USB again to output to an amp all with no noticeable/perceived delay?

So why would you assume degradation and latency would be noticeable in this scenario being discussed and with all things low bass being felt with an onboard DSP chip or other DSP hardware solution?

There is likely more latency with a BK unit moving a piston as they are not just as quick to operate as say TST units which also can feel smoother.more responsive with material like music. If a user really wants they can add delay with the DSP on the NXD amps to correct any timing issues with different tactile or indeed longer speaker cable lengths as well as alter the phase if some units are installed inverted and others not inverted.

Now a very simple point back, do you think enough time and effort in testing and experimentation has been spent in determining that DSP is advantageous for tactile immersion with sim rigs?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Still don't hear a single reasonable explanation why in your opinion DSP in the amp is superior to software solution operating in original digital domain in the context of our specific application.
And if there is none, why is that whole amp with DSP is an absolute must crusade?

 

[Mr Latte]

Still don't hear a single reasonable explanation why in your opinion DSP in the amp is superior to software solution operating in original digital domain in the context of our specific application.
And if there is none, why is that whole amp with DSP is an absolute must crusade?

You have been given plenty of reasons to use DSP and benefits it brings.
Now you're switching, to why not use it on the soundcard.

So tell me again, why is operating DSP in digital domain on the soundcard an advantage. What has been tested to confirm this is the case in our usage case scenario? What make/model of soundcard should be used or works best?

What software is being used on the soundcard, whats its limitations or pros/cons over what the Behringer DSP provides? Or other solutions can provide. Can you illustrate examples/reasons to take this approach?
Is it as easy to configure and setup, or is it even more overwhelming/confusing?

Who said DSP was superior if it was on the amp, in what way superior?
Who said its a "must" crusade to have an amp with DSP?

You are making points on things that were not stated as if they were stated
Keep things in context.

It appears what you are trying to do is to say software like EQ APO can be used and it costs nothing.
If that's your point then like others prove that it or alternatives can be used and it works properly with Simhub in a multichannel configuration and is not limited to only a single soundcard, is stable and with little CPU resources. Those are factors many of us need for it to be comparable to the recommended options.

Those points have already been put to others who state hardware-based DSP is not needed or is not as good. Claims I see being made with nothing in detail to explain why or how that is the case.

 

[Mr Latte]

You see all quiet again and that's what is amusing.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Still patiently waiting for answer to my question.
But I am afraid there will be none.

 

[Mr Latte]

Still patiently waiting for answer to my question.
But I am afraid there will be none.

You were given points to answer regards what software was being used if keeping DSP processing within the sound card.

The software , depending how good it is can still cause issues with channel leakage, distortion and delay with virtual routing.

If you want a comparison then give me something to compare against. So far you’ve not nor have you pointed out any real world usage benefits to the methods for DSP already shared. That also does not mean only Behringers DSP. I’ve looked at various options.

The reason Behringers gets recommended is because it’s not expensive, it also adds features like digital wattage limiter and is quite easy to use with clearly laid out interface. No extra cables no extra plugs. That’s does not mean it hasn’t got drawbacks if it’s own but as stated you or someone else is welcome to share better alternatives that have been tried and tested.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

That's cool, just wanted to point out that people might be getting wrong impression that they can get any amp they want as long as it's DSP Behringer.
There are other good and better options, including often overlooked SMSL SA 98E, that would work wonderfully for smaller transducers like Rechon and Aurasound with lots of headroom to spare.

DSP related stuff, again my own experience and feedback I got from people I know, that most just don't bother with that. Most small transducers work out of the box without need for any fine tuning, I understand what you are saying about BK Mini LFE piston pang, experienced that myself, in my opinion it's just bad design, but I've seen some mods taking care of that and for myself was able to get rid of it by just cantilevering them on these supports, reason BK most popular Gamer2 model comes with that springy mounting arm.
Plus there is always software DSP option, as we can set high/low pass filter, frequency range, gain, and to which channel individual generated effect goes in SimHub and to some degree in SimVibe, and if ever needed can use additional EQ option in soundcard or in that APO software you mentioned.

And for examples of other options for bigger transducers, I use this Crown XLS-1002 for BK Mini LFE, it's quiet as fan only kicks in when it gets overheated (which is almost never), but that just one example, I am sure there are better, or cheaper options including multi channel ones like Emotiva and such.

 

[Mr Latte]

You have to move on with your Behringer brand issues.

The company has been making a lot of good products lately. You dont have to take my word for that you can easily see reviews on the various hardware they make. Yet you continually want to put down the brand and the DSP amps they offer. Yet they are a brillant amp for the money as they are ideal for a user that might upgrade their tactile in future. So they can with the DSP it has, set a digital wattage limit to 50w to protect the budget tactile yet the amps also support different ohms per channel and from 2-8ohm units. Very few budget amps offer that range of features, so they are recommended based on that but also based on my own experiences with them.

A £220 amp that has DSP and can power dual large BK either 2ohm or 4ohm all day long. Tell me again whats not to like? Reliability with these is not any worse than with other products so you need to stop trying to make it seem otherwise.

The problem with Crown in EU/UK is price most people will not pay that money for an amp for tactile.
In the £150-£250 price point it is very hard to find a better amp than the Behringer NXD series.
You or anyone are more than welcome to research and do a thread on comparing amps features spec and price if you want.

I am not responsible if people do not learn to use the DSP to aid or improve their tactile, or if they feel its not worth using. We already discussed many uses it can be applied and benefits it can bring. It already has been said that using it on budget tactile won't bring the same benefits. You have to keep in mind that many people using budget tactile are working with a very narrow frequency range as most budget tactile only works at best in the 40-80Hz ranges. Some not even that, so not a lot you can do with DSP on such tactile transducers if they are limited that way. This is partly one reason some people will say DSP does not make much difference.

For cheapo amps...
Knobsound seems to be one of the leading brands using budget Class D mini amp boards.
We shared on the forums recently a new 4 channel amp that outputs 50watt per channel.

It costs less than the SMSL 98 two channel amp as amps have been improving and the SMSL is quite old now. Guess what, some people preferred to spend more on the Behringer EQP304 that comes with a noisy fan. Although I have to say its finish and build are quite good and its an attractive rack mount design with a bit more wattage than the knobsound option. The SMSL 98 approx £100-£120 in UK. The NX1000 is £160 the NX1000D with DSP is £180-£200. Sorry but they are much better amps than the SMSL98 for the money and don't have the higher distortion it has even though it works quite well with budget tactile it wont be able to power large BK. The 1000 series from Behringer can power the largest BK. I know as I ran 2x large BK Concert on an Inuke 1000DSP amp for 3 months and no issues. Yet I would recommend for the large BK people go with the 3000 series.

I have 8x older iNuke DSP amps, some upto 6 years old all still working fine so far and I have been happy with them even if I did do a fan mod on them.

I would not do dodgy Buttkicker mods that some are showing. Its not hard with PEQ to drop the amplitude and the issue managed with the culprit frequencies and the units characteristic peak it has @35Hz. We have a thread on it here that's several years old now but it got little discussion or attention.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

You have to move on with your Behringer brand issues.

You first.

 

[Mr Latte]

You first.

As stated your welcome to recommend people a better amp for the money when you find it, I too will recommend it to the community.